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Baruch Obamawitz posted:Oh man, Hillary just said that the picture leading drudgereport was a picture of Libyan civilians carrying the ambassador to the hospital, not taking of a trophy reminiscent of what happened in Iraq. Like that's going to change the necrophageous lede and the idea that HERE BE DRAGONS.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:07
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Mirthless posted:It's different because those comics weren't done with the intention of stirring up violence. Much like the financier of this movie, who once burned the qu'ran because he knew the kind of protests it would stir up in the middle east, I feel that the director of this movie never made it to make a statement in the US, he made it to piss off extremists in the middle east. Part of the ongoing campaign to paint Islam as a religion of hate. You're exactly right. The director explicitly made it because he felt it would help Israel by showing how "hateful" Islam is. quote:Bacile, a California real estate developer, told the AP he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam's flaws to the world.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:07
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SolarFire2 posted:We need to throw Bill Maher in prison for that 'Religulous' movie, then?o
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Sep 12, 2012 15:09
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KaneTW posted:There's a difference between critique and hate speech. I get the feeling that when I ask you to provide an actionable set of criteria to differentiate between the 2, it's going to be like those old-school porn laws i.e. "I know it when I see it".
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Sep 12, 2012 15:10
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^^^ Why do Americans feel they have to reinvent the wheel every time they encounter a problem? Modern justice, both as a theoretical science and as a branch of power, is robust enough to handle something like that, as evidenced by numerous examples from other democratic regimes. SolarFire2 posted:We need to throw Bill Maher in prison for that 'Religulous' movie, then?o Not all regulations have to be equivalent to blasphemy laws, for Christ's sake. Germany, for instance, has a complex system of laws forbidding all sorts of attacks against human dignity. Yet, it remains arguably one of the more liberal countries even in the western world. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Sep 12, 2012 |
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Sep 12, 2012 15:11
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shrike82 posted:I get the feeling that when I ask you to provide an actionable set of criteria to differentiate between the 2, it's going to be like those old-school porn laws i.e. "I know it when I see it". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung is good enough for me. E: beaten
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Sep 12, 2012 15:13
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shrike82 posted:I get the feeling that when I ask you to provide an actionable set of criteria to differentiate between the 2, it's going to be like those old-school porn laws i.e. "I know it when I see it". Well if it helps you can have a look at the criteria for the UK hate speech laws in the Public Order Act 1986 as an example. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/part/III
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Sep 12, 2012 15:14
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shrike82 posted:I get the feeling that when I ask you to provide an actionable set of criteria to differentiate between the 2, it's going to be like those old-school porn laws i.e. "I know it when I see it". Aren't those "old-school" porn laws the current porn laws?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:14
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shrike82 posted:I get the feeling that when I ask you to provide an actionable set of criteria to differentiate between the 2, it's going to be like those old-school porn laws i.e. "I know it when I see it". Read about the Geert Wilders trial.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:14
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shrike82 posted:I get the feeling that when I ask you to provide an actionable set of criteria to differentiate between the 2, it's going to be like those old-school porn laws i.e. "I know it when I see it". I don't think Maher ever stated that any of the religions he discussed were "a cancer", and he actually sat down with pastors/priests/rabbis instead of making a movie where Muhammad fucks underage children.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:15
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B-b-but Hitler was exercising his right to freedom of speech when he called the Jews subhuman, it's not his fault Kristallnacht happened 
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Sep 12, 2012 15:15
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Reuters says Marines are being sent to Libya for security. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/12/us-libya-ambassador-marines-idUSBRE88B0UD20120912
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Sep 12, 2012 15:15
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Unoriginal Name posted:Aren't those "old-school" porn laws the current porn laws? The case in which the Supreme Court Justice said "I know it when I see it" was being spoken about a movie that the justice thought was not pornographic. Many obscenity laws were loosened in the late 60s and 70s.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:16
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Forums Terrorist posted:B-b-but Hitler was exercising his right to freedom of speech when he called the Jews subhuman, it's not his fault Kristallnacht happened  aside this is such a terrible analogy
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Sep 12, 2012 15:17
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:Oh man, Hillary just said that the picture leading drudgereport was a picture of Libyan civilians carrying the ambassador to the hospital, not taking of a trophy reminiscent of what happened in Iraq. Oh christ >_< I hope what's she's saying is true, that would restore some of my faith after this incident.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:18
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Forums Terrorist posted:B-b-but Hitler was exercising his right to freedom of speech when he called the Jews subhuman, it's not his fault Kristallnacht happened Yes, posting a video on Youtube is just like Hitler and Kristallnacht....
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Sep 12, 2012 15:18
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Do the Marines that guard the consulate actually have authority to shoot and really fight? I wonder how this news is impacting the other Marine embassy guards, they must be a pretty tight community and it can't really feel good knowing that a consulate basically fell and was overrun.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:19
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Torpor posted:Do the Marines that guard the consulate actually have authority to shoot and really fight? I wonder how this news is impacting the other Marine embassy guards, they must be a pretty tight community and it can't really feel good knowing that a consulate basically fell and was overrun. I'd imagine that the ROE for guards must be ridiculously restrictive.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:20
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KaneTW posted:Oh boy, that sure is a great civil right. You don't want the government deciding what is and isn't hate speech. Really bad idea. Forums Terrorist posted:B-b-but Hitler was exercising his right to freedom of speech when he called the Jews subhuman, it's not his fault Kristallnacht happened You're comparing a random kook to the leader of a country? Really?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:20
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Iridium posted:Reuters says Marines are being sent to Libya for security. That's a pretty fast response.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:20
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I'm sorry to hear the news about Vilerat. I came here this morning to see any updates on what would inevitably be a crazy situation regarding the consulate attacks only to be met with this.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:22
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mcmagic posted:You don't want the government deciding what is and isn't hate speech. Really bad idea. It works fine over here in Germany but I can understand it being a different situation in the US.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:22
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shrike82 posted:Yes, posting a video on Youtube is just like Hitler and Kristallnacht.... The point is that the ideal solution would be to arrest and try the mob and Salafists for storming the embassy, and to arrest and try those behind the movie on the grounds of hate speech. Going "GUYS GUYS freedom of speech" doesn't really help if we have a bunch of treasonous weasels dancing around and making life harder by stirring up poo poo.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh christ >_< I hope what's she's saying is true, that would restore some of my faith after this incident. There was another page with a different picture that didn't look like anything other than parading the corpse, but apparently it is offline now. It was entirely in Libyanese or whatever their language is, and they were standing him upright like a puppet. http://www.elonce.com/secciones/internacionales/277060-el-embajador-de-estados-unidos-en-libia-muri-durante-ataque-a-consulado.htm
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Sep 12, 2012 15:26
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Pureauthor posted:That's a pretty fast response. Yeah attacking an Embassy is pretty serious poo poo. Considering its thought of as US territory as I remember. Correct me if I am wrong. Plus also election year.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:26
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ekuNNN posted:I think you mean Danish Also that not so lovely one by van Gogh.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:26
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We had the lovely movie Fitna made by Wilders.
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Geokinesis posted:Well if it helps you can have a look at the criteria for the UK hate speech laws in the Public Order Act 1986 as an example. Since we're talking specifically about religious hate speech, it's also worth looking at the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006, which amended the aforementioned Act to cover religious hate speech: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/1/schedule In particular, take note of section 29J: quote:29J Protection of freedom of expression
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Sep 12, 2012 15:28
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RIP Vilerat. This is horrible.  az jan jananam posted:It's really great how patronizing Westerners become in situations like these, to treat Muslims like latently murderous idiot children when it comes to depictions of the Prophet, or, even more offensively, like they are bombs waiting to be set off by the right trigger. It's pathetic, bigoted, and shifts blame off of the murderers where it belongs. Sure, some people could've phrased it better, but it's difficult not to resort to ill-phrased analogies when you actually have to explain the very simple concept that Bacile's film did factor into this and that his behaviour was irresponsible. If you really want to be pedantic about it, put it like this: Bacile was responsible for provoking the attack, the fundamentalist or Ghadaffi loyalist group was responsible for the attack itself (taking the bait, so to speak) and ultimately for the fate of the victims. There. Is that more acceptable to you?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:28
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I can't believe people in here are actually trying to square the circle of being able to keep free speech while criminalizing those who produce subversive art (however poor the quality).
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Sep 12, 2012 15:30
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DAS Super! posted:Yeah attacking an Embassy is pretty serious poo poo. Considering its thought of as US territory as I remember. Correct me if I am wrong. Plus also election year. This was a Consulate, not an Embassy. So it's more of a field office and, as such, not considered sovereign territory, I believe.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:30
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LLJKSiLk posted:There was another page with a different picture that didn't look like anything other than parading the corpse, but apparently it is offline now. It was entirely in Libyanese or whatever their language is, and they were standing him upright like a puppet. That website won't load for me. Could someone please rehost it? E: Not that it changes anything if his corpse was desecrated.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:31
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R. Mute posted:Sure, some people could've phrased it better, but it's difficult not to resort to ill-phrased analogies when you actually have to explain the very simple concept that Bacile's film did factor into this and that his behaviour was irresponsible. If you really want to be pedantic about it, put it like this: Bacile was responsible for provoking the attack, the fundamentalist or Ghadaffi loyalist group was responsible for the attack itself (taking the bait, so to speak) and ultimately for the fate of the victims. There. Is that more acceptable to you? Using "provoke" is so mealy-mouthed. How exactly did Bacile provoke anyone to murder? Did he explicitly tell fundies to kill Americans?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:31
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DAS Super! posted:Yeah attacking an Embassy is pretty serious poo poo. Considering its thought of as US territory as I remember. Correct me if I am wrong. Plus also election year. No. Common misconception. Embassies have certain extraterritorial rights under the Vienna Convention (that's where "diplomatic immunity" comes from, as well as the idea of someone taking refuge in another country's embassy), but they aren't sovereign soil. Also for like the 800th time this was a consulate and not an embassy, but the same stuff applies about the Vienna Convention and extraterritoriality. e: Also sending in the Marines is not that big of a deal...it's not like they're sending in an entire MEU to invade the country or something. The FAST dudes that are getting sent are specifically trained for exactly this type of situation, where a U.S. government facility needs short term additional protection. In fact historically one of the most common things they deploy in support of are embassies/other diplomatic facilities. iyaayas01 fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Sep 12, 2012 |
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Sep 12, 2012 15:31
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Forums Terrorist posted:The point is that the ideal solution would be to arrest and try the mob and Salafists for storming the embassy, and to arrest and try those behind the movie on the grounds of hate speech. Going "GUYS GUYS freedom of speech" doesn't really help if we have a bunch of treasonous weasels dancing around and making life harder by stirring up poo poo. Question: if I go online and piss off some evangelical christians by letting them know EXACTLY how offensive I find their religion, and one of them guns some random people down as a result, should I be arrested for that? Serious question, because I'm betting half the people on this forum (myself included) have said things about Christianity just as bad as the stuff said in this film.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:33
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Middle East Wars: RIP Vilerat. Also, it was a consulate.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:34
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sentientcarbon posted:Question: if I go online and piss off some evangelical christians by letting them know EXACTLY how offensive I find their religion, and one of them guns some random people down as a result, should I be arrested for that? Serious question, because I'm betting half the people on this forum (myself included) have said things about Christianity just as bad as the stuff said in this film. If it gets people killed, yeah.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:35
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shrike82 posted:Using "provoke" is so mealy-mouthed. How exactly did Bacile provoke anyone to murder? Did he explicitly tell fundies to kill Americans? A consultant on the film, Steve Klein, said... "We went into this knowing this was probably going to happen." If you know that people are probably going to be killed because of your hateful movie and you push through and make it anyway, how is that anything other than a provokation?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:35
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What a mess. RIP.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:35
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sentientcarbon posted:Question: if I go online and piss off some evangelical christians by letting them know EXACTLY how offensive I find their religion, and one of them guns some random people down as a result, should I be arrested for that? Serious question, because I'm betting half the people on this forum (myself included) have said things about Christianity just as bad as the stuff said in this film. I don't believe in censorship but that doesn't mean someone is immune to the fact that their art has power. If it didn't then they wouldn't be doing it in the first place. Using your art (even lovely art with poor production values) in an act of knowingly xenophobic attack may (and should) be protected, but it still makes you a shitheel and you deserve every ounce of blame that falls upon your shoulders. You're free to make your terrible art but it doesn't absolve you from responsibility, even if you can't (and shouldn't) be legally punished for it. It just means you're a shitheel.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:36
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iyaayas01 posted:No. Common misconception. Embassies have certain extraterritorial rights under the Vienna Convention (that's where "diplomatic immunity" comes from, as well as the idea of someone taking refuge in another country's embassy), but they aren't sovereign soil. Sorry about that. Blame it on not having my morning coffee.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:36
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