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Zero Star posted:Actually, it IS completely 100% black-and-white. The game has cleaned up a lot for the better as a result of the tragedy though. The police and FA are pretty much solely to blame for the troubles at Hillsborough but I wouldn't have dreamt of an away leg for a Stoke game in the 80s, hell even in the early 2ks I only did home games because I could find nobody willing to do an away leg with me. Its a shame that England no longer has stands while Germany does but they appear to be better able to control themselves so I guess that's the world we live in.
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Sep 14, 2012 07:29
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Pookerbacca posted:Heh, nope, just my own thoughts. It's just my natural reaction to what I see amongst the herd mentality amongst the journalists I've been reading. When there is a 100% piling going in one direction, tht just means, we are bluffing ourselves about something. I know this is an emotional issue for many people, waiting for vindication for 23 years, bothing is ever completely 100% black or white. Its almost as if the police allowed people to go in one direction with no organisation of where exactly they should go (remember Liverpool fans won't actually know where to go in the stadium) until it was too late and there were way too many people there. Once people are there it is near impossible to get them out without a huge coordinated effort which there wasn't. When you're at the back of the crowd you have no way of knowing whats going on at the front or how bad it is and more people kept going there because they were told to. When you're at the front its impossible to go anywhere. Basically you're a massive dick. Jose fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Sep 14, 2012 |
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Sep 14, 2012 08:04
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savetheclocktower posted:
If there were "zero" ticketless fans, yes I do believe there would have been less of a crush (even if the crush was the fault of some faceless policeman opening the wrong gate), and in all probability, less fatalities. Is it the "fault" of Liverpool fans, of course not, but do ticketless fans have "some" responsibility in adding to a crush, I would say so. I don't know who this Stu Campbell is, but my post is a response to the moral "absolutism" I 've been reading the past couple of days (and that is just amongst journalist who are supposedly not infected by tribalism).I just don't get how so many people can state with absolute certainty, that fans (and they could just have easily been United fans) had "zero" contribution to an organic human tragedy. Hillsborough was not some mathematical formula where you can assign 100% of the blame to the South Yorkshire Police, Margaret Thatcher and The Sun. I don't know if the Taylor report somehow determined there were 5, 50, 500 ticketless fans there on the day, but to say it was "all them" and "not us" just seems to be foolish. I get the need vindicate the fans who have been falsely vilified for 23 years, but an absolutist viewpoint doesn't help either, I think. savetheclocktower posted:
I think I was pretty clear that this was not about Liverpool fans, in particular, being at fault or negligent. My point was that fan culture (of all stripes) must have had some contributory role to that day. Was it a 1%, 2%, 3%.....10%? who knows, but when people try and shout you down for having a slightly contrarian view, then it strikes me that we are not being honest with ourselves.
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Sep 14, 2012 08:16
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Pookerbacca posted:If there were "zero" ticketless fans, yes I do believe there would have been less of a crush (even if the crush was the fault of some faceless policeman opening the wrong gate), and in all probability, less fatalities. You know what could've made less fatalities? The police doing their loving job. Half of the people could've been saved if SYP knew what they were doing. Doesn't matter how many ticketless fans they were because the same shoddy policing would've made for the same. gently caress off basically.
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Sep 14, 2012 08:29
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He's correct of course, he's just presenting it as a much less trivial point than it really is.
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Sep 14, 2012 08:45
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Pookerbacca posted:I don't know if the Taylor report somehow determined there were 5, 50, 500 ticketless fans there on the day, but to say it was "all them" and "not us" just seems to be foolish. I get the need vindicate the fans who have been falsely vilified for 23 years, but an absolutist viewpoint doesn't help either, I think. OK, we've identified the problem. Read the Taylor Report (click on the first two things in the "References" section) and then come back and we'll figure out which of us has the absolutist viewpoint, Solomon. You're being "shouted down" because you don't know what the gently caress you're talking about.
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Sep 14, 2012 08:46
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Certainly the football culture of the period is important in reminding us of the context of the disaster and helping us to understand why it was possible for the police to blame the fans so effectively in their cover-up. To quote from a Guardian commenter: "the Heysel disaster was 4 years before. Liverpool fans subsequently were regarded with a mixture of contempt and disgust by many people in this country, who wouldn't or couldn't see the difference between hooligans and genuine fans. That was the narrative that was established by sections of the media as well as the thugs who attached themselves to that club." Without this culture the police wouldn't have had a ready-made excuse. But the notion that football culture must have materially contributed to the disaster itself (and you've even said that there were probably more fatalities because of fan misbehaviour) has been explicitly refuted by both the Taylor Report and the Independent Inquiry.
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Sep 14, 2012 08:48
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quote:If there were "zero" ticketless fans, yes I do believe there would have been less of a crush (even if the crush was the fault of some faceless policeman opening the wrong gate), and in all probability, less fatalities. Is it the "fault" of Liverpool fans, of course not, but do ticketless fans have "some" responsibility in adding to a crush, I would say so. You're wrong. quote:“I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion. With one or two exceptions, the police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the ‘conspiracy’ theory (of a large number quote:“The police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence,” The Interim Taylor Report, paragraph 200 quote:“Sheffield Wednesday FC’s own admission count system showed the terrace did not exceed its 10,100 capacity (for the Leppings Lane end). As part of their analysis, the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) counted the number of [Liverpool] supporters entering the ground, including those through the turnstiles, through Gate C and even those who climbed over the turnstiles. They gave three admission figures based on their analysis. Their first figure was 9,267, their ‘best estimate’ was 9,734, and their third figure was a ‘maximum estimate’ of 10,124. The HSE report stated it was unlikely that the terrace exceeded 10,124 and that total admissions were approximately equal to the designated capacity of 10,100 people. Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster,” The Hillsborough Football Disaster: Context And Consequences, page 17 quote:"Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor’s findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying." The Report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel, page 26 quote:but when people try and shout you down for having a slightly contrarian view, then it strikes me that we are not being honest with ourselves. You aren't being shouted down because your view is contrarian, it's because your view is wrong and stupid. There was a Aside from the fact that you are wrong, you have this stupid line of thinking that amounts to basically "well if all the fans stayed home then none of them would have died". It's an ignorant and absurd line of victim blaming and there's a reason why people are having a go at you. sc0tty fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Sep 14, 2012 |
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Sep 14, 2012 08:54
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It was closer to 400 pages
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Sep 14, 2012 09:00
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Actually Pookerbacca is right. The Taylor report and the four hundred thousand pieces of evidence just released contradicting their position cannot compare to their incisive and brilliant mind. Well done Pookerbacca you've cracked the other cover up, you truly are so very loving special.
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Sep 14, 2012 09:21
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savetheclocktower posted:OK, we've identified the problem. Read the Taylor Report (click on the first two things in the "References" section) and then come back and we'll figure out which of us has the absolutist viewpoint, Solomon. Just as an FYI, the links don't seem to be working right now. Also, just out of curiosity, should both the Taylor Report and the HIP Report be read, or just the latter? Edit: Oh here we go. Interim Report Chucat fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Sep 14, 2012 |
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Sep 14, 2012 09:21
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Chucat posted:Just as an FYI, the links don't seem to be working right now. Also, just out of curiosity, should both the Taylor Report and the HIP Report be read, or just the latter? Yeah, the interim report of the Taylor Inquiry (rather than the final report) is the one you want for the analysis of the events of 15 April. The HIP report is longer than both Taylor reports put together, and aside from the chapter that went into detail about how police accounts were amended, I basically skimmed.
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Sep 14, 2012 09:41
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All of these have a summary chapter which are only about 30 pages so those are the best places to start.
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Sep 14, 2012 09:45
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sc0tty posted:Aside from the fact that you are wrong, you have this stupid line of thinking that amounts to basically "well if all the fans stayed home then none of them would have died". Thanks for distorting my posts! My point is very simple. 23 years ago, the police, the government (and some media) put 100% of the blame on the fans. In the last few days, the media, and most fans, have put 100% of the blame on the "authorities", which of course, is much closer to The Truth. But...... Apparently, if you raise the possibility that maybe a small % of the responsibility lies with some fans or the fan culture of the time, this get's translated into accusing all Liverpool fans of "having materially contributed to the disaster itself". This is pretty much par for the course on any Hillsborough discussion, any variance from the party line is hysterically greeted like a YouTube video denigrating a religious prophet! Does anyone really believe there were any less ticketless fans there that day than at any other important football match of the day (especially when you are "away"). Regardless of whether the stand was at or below official capacity, when the chaos ensued (because of the police negligence), the chances of surviving (I would think) would have been better if fans who were not supposed to be there, had not blagged their way in. Seems like common sense to me, but what do I know, I didn't write a 400 page report. Maybe it would have only been 95 and not 96 deaths, maybe it would not have made a difference, but there must be fans who were there on that day, who have some (maybe small) sense of a guilty conscience over having partially contributed to the chaos just by sneaking in and being there. Maybe my perspective is tainted having read too much about United fan culture (presuming that Liverpool fans or Forest or Villa fans etc are no different) that continuously glorifies "those good old days" and the tales of "ticketless heroics" are all exagerated forms of boasting by fat 40 year olds who have grown wistful, but my reaction has always been, when reading those "accounts", that it seemed pretty discordant after the events of 1989. My point in posting was not to try and troll anybody here, on an obviously emotional issue. There has been a lot of very good commentary over the last few days about the truth that has finally come out, I have nothing to add there that has not already been said about the negligence and cover-up of the authorities. But I did have an observation, (and maybe it is trivial in the greater scheme of this week's revelations) that there also seems to be a rush to completely absolve ALL fans of ANY responsibility, and that strikes me as a little bit dodgy as well. Now, back to waiting for the Apple store to come online.....
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Sep 14, 2012 10:03
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I'm not sure how anybody with half a brain can maintain your point of view after the HIP report it's not up for debate anymore. You might as well be telling the families of the 96 who died that it's partially their own fault for turning up at the football match at all. Pissflaps fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Sep 14, 2012 |
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Sep 14, 2012 10:05
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Pissflaps posted:You might as well be telling the families of the 96 who died that it's partially their own fault for turning up at the football match at all. It seems to me that's exactly what he's saying...
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Sep 14, 2012 10:11
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Pookerbacca posted:Maybe my perspective is tainted having read too much about United fan culture (presuming that Liverpool fans or Forest or Villa fans etc are no different) that continuously glorifies "those good old days" and the tales of "ticketless heroics" are all exagerated forms of boasting by fat 40 year olds who have grown wistful, but my reaction has always been, when reading those "accounts", that it seemed pretty discordant after the events of 1989. Oh for gently caress sake. Is that what you base your brilliant observation on? Did you even read what sc0tty wrote?
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Sep 14, 2012 10:16
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Pissflaps posted:You might as well be telling the families of the 96 who died that it's partially their own fault for turning up at the football match at all. How do you even know they had tickets?
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Sep 14, 2012 10:16
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Pookerbacca posted:there also seems to be a rush to completely absolve ALL fans of ANY responsibility That's because the fans weren't responsible you loving penis. You're presenting wistful anecdotes from "fat 40 year olds" as some sort of contradiction to a ~400 page report and almost half a million pieces of actual tangible evidence that puts beyond any reasonable doubt that not only was the crowd not to blame whatsoever but that there was a massive cover up carried out by those that were fully responsible for the tragedy. This is outright victim blaming. For an encore you should go and tell the families of the ~3000 dead at 9/11 that some of the blame lies with them because come on man, they were there.
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Sep 14, 2012 10:20
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Scott Bakula posted:How do you even know they had tickets? How do you know they didn't turn up without tickets and every single one of them pissed out of their minds? If only we had some sort of conclusive report on the matter.
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Sep 14, 2012 10:21
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Like I told anyone who would listen when I visited the 911 memorial in New York, it's there own fault for working there. They'll get no sympathy from me.
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Sep 14, 2012 10:23
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Pookerbacca posted:But I did have an observation, (and maybe it is trivial in the greater scheme of this week's revelations) It is.
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Sep 14, 2012 10:31
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The fans weren't responsible for anything you blithering loving idiot. Even if some did commit an incredibly minor (in the grand scheme of things) offence of blagging their way into the stadium, those people were still victims of that horrible loving shitshow just like everyone else. If you seriously think the (MAXIMUM) estimated 124 people had any meaningful contribution to a crush of 10,000 then you're so blindingly stupid that we're going to have to cast you off to a prison island along with all the Hillsborough chanters and McKenzie.
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Sep 14, 2012 10:37
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Popehoist posted:The fans weren't responsible for anything you blithering loving idiot. Even if some did commit an incredibly minor (in the grand scheme of things) offence of blagging their way into the stadium, those people were still victims of that horrible loving shitshow just like everyone else. If you seriously think the (MAXIMUM) estimated 124 people had any meaningful contribution to a crush of 10,000 then you're so blindingly stupid that we're going to have to cast you off to a prison island along with all the Hillsborough chanters and McKenzie. Can't you just send him to work down a pit or something. We don't want him either.
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Sep 14, 2012 10:45
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I wish I could reach through the Internet and punch some sense into you, because apparently you have gently caress all. Read the Taylor Report. Educate yourself. Realise how ashamed you should feel about what you're posting. Taylor rejected the notions that drunk/ticketless fans caused the disaster. Contributed, perhaps, but it probably would have happened anyway. There was no evidence of a large amount of drink involved (some, definitely... It was a social occasion after all). Ticketless fans are irrelevant because the number of fans inside Hillsborough in total was far under capacity. The problem was that, with no police directing fans away from full pens, everyone flooded into the tunnel leading to Pens 3&4, because that was where signs directed them (and I'm sure the "follow the crowd" mentality kicked in. They probably didn't know where they were going). This was exacerbated when Duckenfield ordered Gate C to be opened to relieve the crush at the turnstiles. The survivors have been living with guilt and trauma for 23 years. Some committed suicide, and at least one person has been in an asylum. So don't think for one second that this report somehow completely relieves them. They're going to be living with it for the rest of their lives. I'm sure plenty are still having nightmares, judging from what I've read from the likes of Tony Evans (who experienced both Heysel and Hillsborough). So seriously, cop the gently caress on and educate yourself.
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Sep 14, 2012 10:50
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while it's certainly true that if there had been no fans there then nobody would have died, it seems to me kind of like drowning someone in a swimming pool and then blaming the council for putting all that water there
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Sep 14, 2012 11:31
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Pookerbacca posted:Regardless of whether the stand was at or below official capacity, when the chaos ensued (because of the police negligence), the chances of surviving (I would think) would have been better if fans who were not supposed to be there, had not blagged their way in. If only there was a report or some analysis of some kind to find out what effect the 'ticketless' fans had on the impact of the tragedy..
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Sep 14, 2012 11:37
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Pookerbacca posted:It's incredible that it has taken 23 years for the truth to see light of day, but I have to say, some of the commentary in the last few days has gone a little overboard in white-washing the responsibility of the football fan culture of the day, in having ANY contribution at all to this tragedy. There was a horrible white-wash perpetrated by the police 23 years ago, so let's not go overboard in going in the opposite direction now. Pookerbacca posted:But I did have an observation, (and maybe it is trivial in the greater scheme of this week's revelations) that there also seems to be a rush to completely absolve ALL fans of ANY responsibility, and that strikes me as a little bit dodgy as well. Pookerbacca posted:... but lets not kid ourselves that every single fan in the Leppings Lane End has got a "clear conscience" from that horrible day. you're loving mental.
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Sep 14, 2012 12:03
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Please tell me more about English football culture in the 80s Man United fan from Canada
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Sep 14, 2012 12:46
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Pookerbacca please don't post again in this thread. It was funny to see someone like you pop up though, because we were just talking about cunts like you a few pages back. I have no energy for it though and honestly I don't need to, the only response needs to be a link to the HIP report, and if you can't comprehend that then it's on you.
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Sep 14, 2012 12:57
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Pissflaps posted:Like I told anyone who would listen when I visited the 911 memorial in New York, it's there own fault for working there. They'll get no sympathy from me. When the plane hit them, they should have calmly pushed back.
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Sep 14, 2012 15:22
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If everyone on United 93 had a ticket well this world would've been a lot different.
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Sep 14, 2012 15:27
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19602577quote:West Yorkshire's Chief Constable has apologised for any upset caused by a statement he issued about his role in the Hillsborough tragedy. Man. You'd think he'd have just kept quiet.
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Sep 14, 2012 15:28
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Dudley posted:When the plane hit them, they should have calmly pushed back. Now see when I'm in a burning building my first instinct is to run down the stairs and get out. Seems to me like these people must have been running UP, or more of them would have survived.
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Sep 14, 2012 15:32
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Things like this are what (used to) infuriate me when other supporters would repeat Hillsborough lies because it was always going to happen to SOME group of supporters, and the outcome was always going to be a cover-up.  A year after this letter the FA still thought an FA Cup semi-final at that ground was totally fine. They still have a lot to answer for imo.
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Sep 14, 2012 15:40
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Pookerbacca posted:but what do I know, I didn't write a 400 page report. 
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Sep 14, 2012 15:50
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T. Mascis posted:Things like this are what (used to) infuriate me when other supporters would repeat Hillsborough lies because it was always going to happen to SOME group of supporters, and the outcome was always going to be a cover-up. See, it's the descriptive detail that really drives home the pure horror of it to me - Umbrellas snapping in half, the glass in a man's watch exploding, someone describing feeling a man's ribs break under his feet... Utterly horrific.
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Sep 14, 2012 16:18
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Adrianics posted:See, it's the descriptive detail that really drives home the pure horror of it to me - Umbrellas snapping in half, the glass in a man's watch exploding, someone describing feeling a man's ribs break under his feet... Utterly horrific. Well...this letter was written by a guy who had been to the same fixture at the same ground with the same teams the year before and had experienced the conditions that would lead to the Hillsborough Disaster a year later (the letter's from 1988).
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Sep 14, 2012 16:30
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Pissflaps posted:Well...this letter was written by a guy who had been to the same fixture at the same ground with the same teams the year before and had experienced the conditions that would lead to the Hillsborough Disaster a year later (the letter's from 1988). I probably should have been clearer and said descriptions of how conditions in the terraces used to be at the time - As T. Mascis says, some sort of incident was always going to happen even if no one could have predicted it would be on the same scale as Hillsborough.
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Sep 14, 2012 16:33
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irlZaphod posted:
I think that is basically what I've been saying, fans are not to "blame" and were not the "cause" for this disaster. But some fans must have "contributed" to the chaos by just being there without a ticket....maybe it was just 5, 10, 24, I have no idea. I have gone out of my way from the very first post to point out that any fan "contribution" would have been insignificant or at the bottom of the list of contributors to this disaster, but I find it an interesting phenomenon in this thread that any mention of this at all gets equated to: - blaming the victim - like having spit on the graves of the 96 - assigning "material" blame to the fans ......all of which is the opposite of what I think I was saying. Ticketless, drunk or not, no one deserves to die for going to a football match. I have no issue if you want to strongly disagree with my opinion and call me names, but many of the rebuttals I've been reading are just outright dishonest distortions and extrapolations of my comments. My original post was just trying to say we should have a healthy perspective about this historical event, it cannot be just 100% this and 100% that....which is basically what I've been reading in all sorts of social media, forums and articles the past few days. Clearly no one is in the mood to hear anything that is in the slightest bit contrarian.....I understand that, given the circumstances and revelations this week, so I apologize for my timing and bringing up what is a trivial aspect of this disaster, given the real negligence perpetrated by all the other parties involved. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 14, 2012 18:10
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