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Quarex posted:Yeah, there is plenty to find worrying about Hero-U, but their entirely reasonable points that computer games have still not begun to approach the infinite variability that a human Dungeon Master could bring to a game in the 1970s is entirely accurate. I have no idea how this is a controversial statement. A computer game as we currently conceptualize it cannot completely change the game based on the capricious decisions of the player, whereas a tabletop role-playing campaign could change its entire rule-system half-way through if the players decided they did not like the current one. Yeah, the kind of resistance being mobilized to that statement is mind-boggling, and the idea that any time in the near future that robots delivering procedural dialogue (even overlooking the fact that such dialogue would immediately read as being artificial and block most kinds of narrative engagement or immersion, because of the Turing test and now we're back to talking about real AI) would replace the wide range of variability that a human DM provides is kind of ludicrous. Yeah, Spiderweb Games, whatever. Players with a human DM can say "we want to ignore that plot entirely and go build a commune on that island over there," and the DM can respond with, "OK, here are new rules for that, here are the characters that are over there, and next session there will be some new story hooks for you to work with."
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Nov 5, 2012 20:49
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I'm not hearing a lot of confidence in Chris Crawford's Storytron.
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Nov 5, 2012 21:01
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My concern with Hero-U is that they've spent an entire update savaging CRPGs for not having the flexibility of a real game master... while simultaneously claiming that ~adventure~ games are the true RPGs because you play the ~role~ of Gabriel Knight or whatever. It's a one-man semantic pissing contest. That's one concern. The other is that they keep selling what they claim other genres can't provide, character interactions and dispositions driven by a panoply of hidden variables that will somehow make them real... as if a game master were pulling the strings. They're claiming that people won't be able to write walkthroughs because so much will depend on these emergent relationships. This is like some freakish time-clone of Peter Molyneux appearing today and trying to sell people on this great game he's developing called Black and White. The former is annoying, unprofessional, and pointless. It's the kind of stupid mudslinging that flared up when professionally developed adventure games seemed to be destined for extinction. Ten, fifteen years have passed, and instead of explaining how these great plans of theirs are going to work, they're reheating pissy blog posts from 1998? Come on. The latter is... hype. Vapor, even. I pledged before they trotted their not-really-a-GM-but-more-clever-than-a-FAQ-writer emergent wackiness idea out. If it had been part of the pitch from the beginning because... well, I don't remember the throw-away dialogue of Freelancer. But I have an understanding with people that do. They've been out of the business for years, and so has their sales pitch. At this point, staying in feels like pledging to David Crane's 900,000 dollar Pitfall heartbreaker drive.
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Nov 5, 2012 21:02
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Bieeardo posted:muchas palabras I dunno. I've read that update and I just don't see that. It's a little clumsily written, but I see nothing controversial about it. They're pretty much describing the Alpha Protocol dialogue system in the end.
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Nov 5, 2012 21:23
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I never intended to convey that I think a DM AI could be done well today, but for everybody saying "It will never be possible", well, if you gave the design doc for GTA4 to somebody in the days of the Atari 2600, they'd probably tell you it would never be possible either. Hell, if you showed Half-Life to somebody then, they'd probably tell you it's impossible. A DM AI will never be able to drastically change the rules like a normal DM, but that's a dishonest request. Nobody is asking for that. What a DM AI needs to be able to do is procedurally generate stories and characters within a defined set of rules. This is a challenge, but one achievable with modern tech. It could be done most easily in a Roguelike game. The problem is making a DM AI that makes good stories and characters dynamically.
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Nov 5, 2012 21:50
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DStecks posted:The problem is making a DM AI that makes good stories and characters dynamically. This would also set it apart from a lot of DMs.
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Nov 5, 2012 21:52
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Hero U is terrible because they think they can make a QFG game without beautiful painted backgrounds. Not going to happen.
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Nov 5, 2012 22:04
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Quarex posted:Yeah, there is plenty to find worrying about Hero-U, but their entirely reasonable points that computer games have still not begun to approach the infinite variability that a human Dungeon Master could bring to a game in the 1970s is entirely accurate. I have no idea how this is a controversial statement. A computer game as we currently conceptualize it cannot completely change the game based on the capricious decisions of the player, whereas a tabletop role-playing campaign could change its entire rule-system half-way through if the players decided they did not like the current one. Well, they haven't said anything awful enough to make me want to pull my pledge yet. And honestly at this point I think they're just saying whatever they think will pull in any money at all. We'll see what they eventually come up with if they manage to scrounge up enough late backers, I suppose. I've wasted money on worse pitches!
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Nov 5, 2012 22:09
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Man modern RPGs are becoming less like pen-and-paper campaigns, not more like them. Thinking the Elder Scrolls' "radiant" quest generation is comparable to a human DM is madness; it's a paper-thin facade and I don't know why people are offended by them pointing out what has been concretely established a million times on this very forum. Ultima 7 had rudimentary NPC schedules and uhh what the ability to bake bread? How that's supposed to compare favorably to the breadth and responsiveness of an actual human's imagination is beyond me. I'm not backing Hero-U but I genuinely don't understand what you're complaining about. edit: It did. vvvv Super No Vacancy fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Nov 5, 2012 |
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Nov 5, 2012 23:39
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My concerns begin with update 5, where they pat themselves on the back for using a skills-based system instead of levels, and go on to claim that every action will juggle a bunch of variables that will affect other characters in non-obvious ways. Did it work in Alpha Protocol? I've no idea, I never played it. I do know that the Coles are not the Alpha Protocol developers.
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Nov 5, 2012 23:50
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Bieeardo posted:Did it work in Alpha Protocol? I've no idea, I never played it. It did, but AP was a bug-infested, horrendously coded game bolted onto an interesting dialog system and a really tonally inconsistent plot. It's pretty much the last game you want to use as evidence of a "good" RPG to copy unless you are solely copying its dialog system and that is it, since absolutely everything else about the game was mediocre at best.
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Nov 6, 2012 00:03
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Well I think it's safe to say they probably aren't copying AP's stealth mechanics, shooting mechanics, cover mechanics, or melee mechanics, so...
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Nov 6, 2012 00:06
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If he had just said "current technology can't match the improvisational ability of a human GM", I don't think anyone would be arguing. That's a pretty noncontroversial statement. He then adds "technology will never match the abilities of a human GM"; ok, I happen to disagree with him but it's a reasonable opinion to hold. But the whole thing is also dripping with disdain for other RPGs, along with the belief that they're just "adventure games with stats and combat" where you can solve the problems you encounter any way you like as long as it involves stabbing something. So either they haven't played any RPGs made in the last 10-15 years, or they have but they skipped through all of the dialogue and played them like Diablo. Given that they're also congratulating themselves for inventing stuff that existing developers have been doing for a while, it's probably the former, but neither inspires confidence. Bieeardo posted:My concerns begin with update 5, where they pat themselves on the back for using a skills-based system instead of levels, and go on to claim that every action will juggle a bunch of variables that will affect other characters in non-obvious ways. Did it work in Alpha Protocol? I've no idea, I never played it. I do know that the Coles are not the Alpha Protocol developers. It worked really, really well in AP. Unfortunately, a lot of the rest of the game didn't, but it's definitely still worth playing through three or four times, because the stuff in AP that works blows every other RPG out of the water.
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Nov 6, 2012 00:12
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seorin posted:I don't think anyone has linked this yet: Rainfall: The Sojourn. I'm definitely going to back this. It's pretty much exactly what I look for in a kickstarter. Cool looking game, reasonable price, and a modest goal.
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Nov 6, 2012 00:21
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Wezlar posted:I'm definitely going to back this. It's pretty much exactly what I look for in a kickstarter. Cool looking game, reasonable price, and a modest goal. I'll back it when I see it in motion 
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Nov 6, 2012 00:32
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Occupation posted:It did, but AP was a bug-infested, horrendously coded game none of this is true bye (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 6, 2012 00:32
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epitasis posted:none of this is true bye As much as I love Alpha Protocol, it is still a game that requires INI edits to be playable on most computers, causes enemies to vanish into thin air when you quickload, has obviously broken event triggers in at least one mission, completely fails to render dialogue options on some video cards, will occasionally autosave you in places or situations you haven't actually been in, and is rife with balance issues. It's a great game nonetheless, but unless you're one of the like 5% for which it magically works flawlessly out of the box, it is really obviously lacking in polish. Which is not surprising considering its development history, but is unfortunate. vvv I'm describing the PC version, which is the only one I've played. I've heard conflicting reports on whether the console versions are better or worse. ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Nov 6, 2012 |
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Nov 6, 2012 00:40
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Occupation posted:It did, but AP was a bug-infested, horrendously coded game bolted onto an interesting dialog system and a really tonally inconsistent plot. It's pretty much the last game you want to use as evidence of a "good" RPG to copy unless you are solely copying its dialog system and that is it, since absolutely everything else about the game was mediocre at best. What platform did you play on? I cannot speak for others, but I played on PC and encountered no bugs. The sole complaint I had was somewhat fiddly mouse control.
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Nov 6, 2012 00:52
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AP = buggy is like the least controversial/most easily verified information ever posted. If you played and encountered no bugs, congrats you're lucky.
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Nov 6, 2012 00:56
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voltron lion force posted:AP = buggy is like the least controversial/most easily verified information ever posted. If you played and encountered no bugs, congrats you're lucky. I played it on two computers with no problems v  v I used a controller both times. I also didn't encounter all that many bugs in New Vegas, Fallout 3, or Skyrim. I always wonder if maybe I just have a different standard of what's buggy than most people because people seem to flip out at games where I personally see maybe one or two clipping issues and perhaps a single CTD over 80 hours or whatever.
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Nov 6, 2012 00:59
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epitasis posted:Ultima 7 had rudimentary NPC schedules and uhh what the ability to bake bread? How that's supposed to compare favorably to the breadth and responsiveness of an actual human's imagination is beyond me. What they're getting at is that games can never sufficiently respond to player choice. Avernum, Ultima 7, and yes, even Skyrim did. Skyrim did so by limiting your verbs to "punch" and "magic punch", but to just reject it and every other RPG because they don't meet your standards of interactivity (and then use that as the basis for why you're making an adventure game instead) is absurd. Especially when your only specific example game isn't even fully an RPG, what with ARPGs having a different design goal. It's not black and white. An RPG doesn't need to mirror a human DM to be fun and feel interactive. Hell, it doesn't even need to come close. I'd be perfectly happy with a Hero's Quest that didn't go much further than Ultima 7 / Avernum / Alpha Protocol / whatever as far as player agency, but no - you see, either PCs have to simulate DMs perfectly, or full stop, we have to make an adventure game instead. It's silly. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Nov 6, 2012 |
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Nov 6, 2012 01:05
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seorin posted:I don't think anyone has linked this yet: Rainfall: The Sojourn. Renoistic posted:I'll back it when I see it in motion Hi, I'm actually the programmer for Rainfall. I've been working on and off for about three months now on a couple tools and engine things to get the game off the ground. It's a good team and the kickstarter moving along is pretty inspirational. So yeah, I think I can say it's "in motion," haha. Glad to see the reception is pretty positive, though. We were a little worried at first about the goal, but it looks like we'll be able to make a great game if things continue the way they're going, so thanks for the continued support.
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Nov 6, 2012 01:13
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Merry Magpie posted:What platform did you play on? I cannot speak for others, but I played on PC and encountered no bugs. The sole complaint I had was somewhat fiddly mouse control. Did you never save when on a mission which would guarantee all enemies dissapearing in the cell you were in?
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Nov 6, 2012 01:19
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Davincie posted:Did you never save when on a mission which would guarantee all enemies dissapearing in the cell you were in? After three separate playthroughs, I never encountered that bug. I think it was linked to a memory issue on consoles. Honestly, I encountered more bugs in my twin playthroughs of ME2. There was one portion of terrain that would always trap me and force a reload.
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Nov 6, 2012 01:22
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psy_wombats posted:Hi, I'm actually the programmer for Rainfall. I've been working on and off for about three months now on a couple tools and engine things to get the game off the ground. It's a good team and the kickstarter moving along is pretty inspirational. So yeah, I think I can say it's "in motion," haha. Glad to see the reception is pretty positive, though. We were a little worried at first about the goal, but it looks like we'll be able to make a great game if things continue the way they're going, so thanks for the continued support. Rainfall looks awesome, but I think when he said "in motion" he meant that he wants to see the game actually being played before pledging. I get a Seiken Densetsu 3 vibe when I look at what you guys have so far which got me pretty excited. Will definitely be following this one.
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Nov 6, 2012 01:22
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Merry Magpie posted:After three separate playthroughs, I never encountered that bug. I think it was linked to a memory issue on consoles. Hmm I bought the game on the PC after they were done patching it and encountered it every time I saved, forcing me to never save in missions. Heard it was a really common bug too.
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Nov 6, 2012 01:23
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Davincie posted:Hmm I bought the game on the PC after they were done patching it and encountered it every time I saved, forcing me to never save in missions. Heard it was a really common bug too. Weird. I was playing with the release version. Did you ever play before patching? On topic, Rainfall looks reminiscent of Secret of Mana. It looks like they will easily reach their goal. I wish I could say the same for Ars Magica. A spiritual sequel to KoDP would be nice. Merry Magpie fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Nov 6, 2012 |
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Nov 6, 2012 01:25
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psy_wombats posted:Hi, I'm actually the programmer for Rainfall. I've been working on and off for about three months now on a couple tools and engine things to get the game off the ground. It's a good team and the kickstarter moving along is pretty inspirational. So yeah, I think I can say it's "in motion," haha. Glad to see the reception is pretty positive, though. We were a little worried at first about the goal, but it looks like we'll be able to make a great game if things continue the way they're going, so thanks for the continued support. Just out of curiosity, what is the 6k going to pay for? It's not enough for some, much less multiple people to live on, and I'm guessing you'll be going for a low cost publishing method. I don't mean this in a begrudging or suspicious way, I'm just wondering. The Moon Monster fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Nov 6, 2012 |
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Nov 6, 2012 01:28
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^ I'd assume not much (licensing, indie marketing), but that's a very fair question especially if it really is that early and not going towards some set, final polish.psy_wombats posted:So yeah, I think I can say it's "in motion," haha.  but I think Renoistic meant at least a gameplay video.Also, has your team, together or individually, worked on any other games? Always nice to to see some experience (especially coders) on a team. Doom Goon fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Nov 6, 2012 |
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Nov 6, 2012 01:35
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seorin posted:I don't think anyone has linked this yet: Rainfall: The Sojourn I love the "Sol E Chuva" and "Stillness Everlasting" music tracks -- they're beautiful.
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Nov 6, 2012 02:00
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Davincie posted:Hmm I bought the game on the PC after they were done patching it and encountered it every time I saved, forcing me to never save in missions. Heard it was a really common bug too. The problem is not actually saving, but using "load last save" to load rather than going to the "load game" menu and selecting the save there. If enemies vanished every time you saved it would be really obvious, since the game autosaves very frequently. Using "load game" is generally safe, in that all of the enemies that were there when you saved will still be there when you load. It doesn't fix the issue where a game saved will not always save the fact that you're crouched, though, and load you standing in full view of everyone. Fortunately I've only had that had happen once, but it was really annoying.
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Nov 6, 2012 02:17
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I'm not that familiar with Kickstarter projects outside of the good-looking ones that get linked here, so this is an honest question... Is this sort of thing common? Does Kickstarter not have any sort of quality checking before you can throw up a project? 
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Nov 6, 2012 02:22
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AnonSpore posted:Does Kickstarter not have any sort of quality checking before you can throw up a project? The Awful Kickstarters thread's size rivals this one.
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Nov 6, 2012 02:27
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Guess what just launched: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous Braben's after a completely reasonable £1,250,000. Pitch video: none.
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Nov 6, 2012 02:34
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Merry Magpie posted:What platform did you play on? I cannot speak for others, but I played on PC and encountered no bugs. 360, and I used to keep a running list of all the bugs I encountered because whenever I'd state that AP was buggy someone would vitriolically state that I was lying/overstating that facts/etc.
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Nov 6, 2012 02:37
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Axegrinder posted:Guess what just launched: No work done, no video, no concept art, no design, nothing. Hey guys I made Elite, give me 1.2million and Ill make a game... 
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Nov 6, 2012 02:40
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Axegrinder posted:Guess what just launched: quote:Looking at all the high quality games we at Frontier have produced, from RollerCoaster Tycoon 3 to Kinectimals to LostWinds to Disneyland Adventures,
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Nov 6, 2012 02:43
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LumberingTroll posted:No work done, no video, no concept art, no design, nothing. Hey guys I made Elite, give me 1.2million and Ill make a game... It's the Shaker pitch, but with even less detail. I'd assume he doesn't do business with "real" funding sources this way, so, what the hell man.
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Nov 6, 2012 02:47
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AnonSpore posted:I'm not that familiar with Kickstarter projects outside of the good-looking ones that get linked here, so this is an honest question...
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Nov 6, 2012 02:47
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AnonSpore posted:I'm not that familiar with Kickstarter projects outside of the good-looking ones that get linked here, so this is an honest question... That is an awesomely entertaining read. I couldn't satirize highschoolers pitching "The greatest game ever you guyz!" any better. Seriously, you owe it to yourself to read it all the way through. DStecks fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Nov 6, 2012 |
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Nov 6, 2012 02:59
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