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An Interlude - Chris is Smart Dialogue Choice So we saw what happens when you choose to be really taken aback by Dupa's flowery word-choice; now let's see the other side of that.   The other option is to have Chris agree outright. She doesn't even stop to think about it.  The scene starts off a lot less interesting in this way.  And also seems to end much quicker.  Until Borus opens his mouth, anyway. He taken on the role of "wait, what???" in this version of the scene.    We also get to see Salome breaking down the flowery language into a more manageable version of the Lizard's message.  For a moment, Borus is almost impressed.  Dupa pauses just as he's about to leave. Suddenly, he remembers he's got a potshot to take.  It's not quite as good this time around, though.   Dupa also doesn't crack up in this version, which is a shame. Unfortunately placed commas aside, I really liked that part. That's really all it is. Not much difference, but enough that I felt I should show them both off. In conclusion: 
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Feb 6, 2013 05:31
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yokaiy posted:In conclusion: Don't ever stop, yokaiy 
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Feb 6, 2013 05:39
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I like this dude, I hope we get cool lizard party members in the future
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Feb 6, 2013 06:31
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frajaq posted:I like this dude, I hope we get cool lizard party members in the future I hope you enjoy waiting. 
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Feb 6, 2013 07:16
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I always really enjoyed how the first chapter for each character sets up their place in the story as well as how the trinity system shows off all of these little tragedies of errors from each angle. It can drag on for a bit at times but it really shows you why and how thoroughly everyone gets faffed about. It also alleviates but doesn't really cure the general Suikoden 'too many characters for one spotlight' issue but when they do get shown off it tends to be a lot of fun.
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Feb 6, 2013 07:39
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UmbreonMessiah posted:Don't ever stop, yokaiy You couldn't stop me even if you tried.  frajaq posted:I like this dude, I hope we get cool lizard party members in the future RentCavalier posted:I hope you enjoy waiting. There are, in fact, some Lizards in our future. One of them considerably sooner than the others. Sparda219 posted:I always really enjoyed how the first chapter for each character sets up their place in the story as well as how the trinity system shows off all of these little tragedies of errors from each angle. It can drag on for a bit at times but it really shows you why and how thoroughly everyone gets faffed about. It also alleviates but doesn't really cure the general Suikoden 'too many characters for one spotlight' issue but when they do get shown off it tends to be a lot of fun. Zyla posted:And this is what I love about this game, because it is perfectly written around the main gimmick of the game, the Trinity Sight. We get to see every single near miss. Faffing about is practically a core mechanic of this game. And yet, it's done so well that I don't even mind. The world map is also pretty small, so trekking back and forth isn't too much of a hassle. The near misses get even better once we throw our third character into the mix; he's pretty much the epitome of just barely missing the others all the time. But yeah. Been said a few times already (and will probably be said more times over the course of this LP), but the writers of this game knew what they were doing.
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Feb 6, 2013 16:15
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yokaiy posted:Dupa turns his attention back to Chris, either out of duty or feeling that Borus wasn't worth his time. I'm just gonna assume it's the latter. 
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Feb 6, 2013 17:49
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Wow, I really haven't played this in a while. I thought that Dupa was just perpetually angry although he's going to have a reason to be soon.
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Feb 6, 2013 18:10
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You're doing a great job on this lp. Love dat Dupa art.
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Feb 7, 2013 02:55
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You know, Zexen council, you can't just murder all your knights and build a wall of money. Please say we get a lizardman party member. Not for Chris, necessarily, but for someone.
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Feb 7, 2013 05:14
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All I can hope is the game ends in a Dupa and Joe buddy cop adventure.
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Feb 7, 2013 05:39
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Glazius posted:You know, Zexen council, you can't just murder all your knights and build a wall of money. It's very probable. We actually get four Lizards over the course of the game, making them the most numerous of Kobolds in Sui3. One of them will join us not too far into the future. Lazy Programming posted:All I can hope is the game ends in a Dupa and Joe buddy cop adventure. Holy poo poo that would be amazing.
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Feb 7, 2013 07:40
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Are you sure? We get Bazba, Dupa, and Shiba, but I'm pretty sure there's only the three lizards, putting them in a tie with Ducks among the non-human races.
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Feb 7, 2013 08:59
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CmdrKing posted:Are you sure? We get Bazba, Dupa, and Shiba, but I'm pretty sure there's only the three lizards, putting them in a tie with Ducks among the non-human races. You forgot Peggi the blacksmith.
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Feb 7, 2013 09:00
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It took me the longest time to figure out that my vision was jittering rather than the picture. I liked it better that way 
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Feb 7, 2013 09:23
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Glazius posted:You know, Zexen council, you can't just murder all your knights and build a wall of money.
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Feb 7, 2013 11:55
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Veyrall posted:Given the way the Council acts at times, I'm almost certain that a Money-Wall is literally their plan. Built entirely with potch? Wait, is potch paper money or coins?
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Feb 7, 2013 12:14
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Are the lizards even explicitly Kobolds? I thought that mostly just applied as a name to the dog-men (and "nekobold ("cat"-kobold) for the cat people in IV).
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Feb 7, 2013 12:35
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Testekill posted:You forgot Peggi the blacksmith. We get Peggi pretty soon. He's not a combat unit, but he's still awesome. Speedball posted:Are the lizards even explicitly Kobolds? I thought that mostly just applied as a name to the dog-men (and "nekobold ("cat"-kobold) for the cat people in IV). The Lizards and Ducks are both considered to be Kobolds. "Kobold" applies to all animal-people, but they're usually used only for the dogs because those were the only Kobolds in earlier games, and Nekobolds just fits so well as a pun. We eventually get 4 Lizards, 3 Ducks, and 2 dog-Kobolds. Xander77 posted:It took me the longest time to figure out that my vision was jittering rather than the picture. I liked it better that way Dude... are you okay? You might want to go to the doctor or something. 
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Feb 7, 2013 16:08
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yokaiy posted:
Edit - "n't".
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Feb 7, 2013 16:26
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Xander77 posted:Hah. Nah, nah, I just haven't slept in a few days.  Go to sleep! I'll see about making a jittery version for you later.
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Feb 7, 2013 17:11
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That's not how insomnia works. You have to go for the high score! Also, looking forward to the extra-angry jittery version.
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Feb 7, 2013 17:33
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 Now go to sleep.
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Feb 7, 2013 18:45
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yokaiy posted:
 But seriously, have the "lol" jump spastically around him.
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Feb 7, 2013 20:00
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 Well, try harder.  I'm not sure how big avatars can be on SA, but in case there's any interest, here's a 150x150 version. It got a little wonky in resizing though, whoops.
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Feb 7, 2013 20:40
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I think it's 125x125 and no bigger than 30kb. Not sure, though.
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Feb 7, 2013 20:45
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yokaiy posted:
Yeah, that's definitely something Shine on you crazy duck.
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Feb 7, 2013 20:48
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yokaiy posted:
I am now very entertained by this LP and not even because of the game.
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Feb 7, 2013 21:34
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Azure_Horizon posted:I am now very entertained by this LP and not even because of the game. Haha. WELL hopefully we can get you entertained by the game as well.  Sorry this update is taking a while. I should have it up fairly soon. It's pretty long, and I wasn't sure where exactly to cut it.
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Feb 10, 2013 07:38
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Chris Chapter 1.3 - Strategery After the scene ends, the civilians return to the area as if nothing happened. They don't make any mention of Dupa when you talk to them, either, though a few of them have some interesting things to say.  If we head to the eastern entrance of the castle, this guy is hanging around. You can't really see him because he's behind Chris's big fat horse, but it's one of the Karayan men.  If we try to leave, you'll notice that we don't have anywhere on our map to go. So let's hit up a few more people and then get on with the plot.  Stupid puns are going to be a thing that happen fairly frequently in this game, though they're spaced out far enough apart that you won't be expecting them. Also, this kid continues to be sort of creepy.  This woman is very polite, which is interesting given she's Karayan. I guess the Grasslanders really are just nicer people.    I quite like the characterization they give to this guy, even if he's really unimportant. It's a nice touch, I think.  Pictured: Borus in the same spot again. His dialogue is the same as it was in Hugo's chapter, so it leads me to believe that he really was just an oversight in Hugo's story. Forgot to remove him or something?  While we're by the bujutsu teacher, let's take a look at Chris. She's not bad, considering this is her first chapter. Straight D's in everything, but that's better than how Hugo started.  I increase her accuracy to C before moving on.  A little to the right of the teacher is a man standing before a large door. I didn't show him off as Hugo because he would have just told us to scram, but when we talk to him as Chris, we get a new mechanic -- item storage! Our options here are pretty self-explanatory. We can leave stuff in the warehouse, or we can take them out. We can also sell them (it'll only apply to items in the warehouse if we sell this way) or trash them. At this point, we don't have anything we need to drop off, and nothing to withdraw, so we won't be using the warehouse services at the moment. There are a few of these scattered around different areas, but they don't all talk to each other, so be wary when using this service and keep track of where you put things. At some point later in the game, there will be a universal warehouse, but not until later.  Going upstairs to the meeting room, we can find Salome staring out the window. Talking to him will prompt us for something new.  Salome allows us to take members of our bench with us in our party. At this point there's no real choices to be made, but later on, when we start drowning in characters, party arrangement will be more important. We've only got Roland and Borus on our bench right now, and they'll be thrown into our party by the plot soon anyway. It's worth noting that our three characters will have different rosters to pool from. Obviously, this means there is a character to change party line-up for each of them. All three characters will be collecting others separately, and a character recruited by Hugo will be unavailable for Chris and Geddoe.  I decide to stick Roland and Borus in our party, even though it's hardly necessary.  : "Yes sir."If ya know what I mean.  All characters have a little line they say whenever they are brought in to party. With nothing interesting left to see in the castle, we return to Chris's room, where Louis is waiting for us.    : "I am almost done cleaning. I'd best prepare for tomorrow's early start. What will you do, Lady Chris?" : "I think I will retire for the night. Can I depend on you to do the preparations?": "Of course, madam!"  Chris leaves Louis for the comfort of her bed, and the game picks up a few days later, at the Plains Amur. We find ourselves in a temporary Zexen camp, awaiting the Grasslanders for the peace talks.   Borus turns his head to glare in Salome's general direction. I think he's still butthurt about Dupa laughing at him.    On cue, a small group of Grasslanders approach. Among them, Dupa and Lucia, both with their attendants -- a generic Lizard fighter and a scarred Karayan named Beecham -- as well as an old woman.  The Grasslanders stop just short of the Zexens. Although they are both here for peace, there is still much tension between the two groups. Lucia and Chris both take up the front lines.  : "I am here on behalf of the Zexen Council to sign an armistice with the Six Grassland Clans. Let us leave the bloody past behind us and bring peace... at least for now." Dupa nods, as he steps up to the plate.  : "I am Dupa, the Left Fighter in Unit One of the Lizard Clan's Three Bodies Fighters. I have a message from Chief Zepon, the chief of the Lizard Clan, one of the Grand Clans of Grassland. Until the moon disappears, he is the leader of the Six Clans. I will relate his message to the honorable fighters, the Zexen Knights, in accordance with our traditions. Zepon wishes that we, who are crowned with the crest of wisdom, do not waste time. He will be pleased to see that we have completed his wishes."Dupa is as verbose as ever. Chief Zepon is probably given temporary leadership during times such as this. He is the oldest chief of any of the Six Clans. I'm a bit sad that he didn't come to the negotiations, if even that old woman could make the journey, but he is very old so I'm not too surprised he stayed back in the Lizard lands.  Lucia steps up next.  : "I am Lucia, chief of the Karaya Clan of the Six Clans. It is unfortunate we have fought so many futile battles and carelessly shed blood. I would hope that the Silver Maiden, who brought death and fear to the battleground, will not exercise her wisdom and courage maintaining the treaty."Of course, Lucia is far too plucky to concede without being a little sassy. : "Why do you mock me?": "Heh heh. Forgive me, but your beauty and ferocity in battle made me a bit jealous, even though you fought against us."Lucia smirks a bit, but Chris remains as stoic as ever. : "I will take that as a compliment. Now, I must remind you that we are here only to fulfill our Council's orders. It is up to the Council to comply with the treaty."  : "This doesn't happen in Grassland or in the Southern City Federation."Beecham, apparently, had something to do with the Dunan Unification War of the previous game. Likely, he was there supporting Lucia, as he continues to do now. : "The Zexen Knights pledge an oath to the Zexen Rune and to the Council. In Zexen, the roles of the military and the government are separate."It's worth noting that there is not actually a "Zexen Rune." Or at least not in the magical sense. It was probably a translation error, and most likely actually refers to the Zexen Crest. : "How can leader without military prowess govern and protect the nation?"Before the talk can get too off-topic, Salome steps in to get everyone back on track.  The quiet old woman in the back finally steps forward.  Sana is the chief of the Chisha Clan. We've seen only a few Chisha natives so far, and it may be the second most peaceful Clan, next to the Duck Clan. Unfortunately, they don't get off the hook nearly as often as the Duck Clan when it comes to battle, so she was a necessary presence for the negotiations. There is another reason for why Chisha had to be represented, but we'll get to that further down the line.  The Grasslanders retreat for the moment. It is standard for them to celebrate peace as soon as it happens, so they left to throw a party while negotiations are ironing themselves out. We rejoin our intrepid crew a short bit later.  : "Brrrr. The wind is picking up." : "Ha-ha." : "I think Louis may be onto something." : "Hah, ha, ha...."I guess even Salome can joke around if it's at Borus's expense. : "Grasslands' side should be wrapping up their celebration soon. Then we can pack immediately and return to the warm Brass Castle."Things seem to be looking up for both sides.  Some knights, however, are running around restlessly in the background. Maybe not all is well after all...  Roland comes by to report his findings to these jokers, who hadn't noticed the commotion. : "Lady Chris, something is not right. The soldiers are agitated.": "What do you mean?" The men in back have stopped running around, but they seem no less tense, concentrating on something in back of their camp. : "We can't be so rude as to leave before the ceremony is over."Ceremony, celebration, same thing right?  On cue, a messenger runs up to Chris.   : "There are more Lizard Clan troops on the right and the Karaya Clan troops on the left are advancing!" : "There's been a surprise attack, sir! It claimed the lives of both Lord Myriam, defending the right flank, and Lord Lanchet, who was trying to break through enemy lines to free the allies.": "That cannot be!": "S-Sir Myriam?": "Surely, the truce negotiations couldn't have been a trap...": "Those Lizards appeared from the road and out of the blue.": "I didn't think they had a highway network in this region. I thought we'd mapped every one of their routes."So, keep that in mind about the Lizard routes. This will make more sense when you see what their place looks like, but they have a great amount of mobility around the Grasslands through secret paths and such. Part of their strength lies in this fact, though a lot of it also has to do with the fact that they're massive, burly dudes wielding massive, burly weapons. I don't know why Salome would think they wouldn't have some sort of travel route through the plains, when that's Grassland territory. He probably figured the Lizards would be visible while traveling, considering they're on the plains. Well. I guess we'll see how that works later. Let's all stand around and be angry about this instead of getting the hell out of here! : "No time to waste! We'll be surrounded soon."  And so, we have our first Strategy Battle! This means we're having a pretty major skirmish on our hands. We'll be seeing more of these down the road, whenever a large battle ensues.  Our current objective is to stay alive for as many turns as necessary, and we lose if Chris is defeated.  : "Borus, we don't know the whole story. Please don't take any blind shots."So this is how these work. Our forces are broken into multiple units, which can have between one and four fighters in them, as well as a support unit. Unfortunately for us, our Zexens are lacking their full forces, so the only one with a full unit is Roland. Chris has Borus and a generic in her unit, with Louis as support, and Roland is accompanied entirely by generics, with Salome as support. Our other two units are made up entirely of generics, and are represented by the Zexen emblem. We're up against some Lizards and Karayans, and they greatly outnumber us. You'll recognize Dupa to the left. He's accompanied by three Karayan fighters. The units behind him are made up of generic Lizards. Units 5, 6, 8, and 9 are also made of generic Lizards. However, we've got two new faces to the south; Shiba is the larger Lizard to the left, and Bazba is the leaner one to the right.  The main goal of this battle is actually this: Don't get ANYWHERE near Shiba. You thought Dupa was the big one? Naw, man. Shiba is easily the bulkiest of the Lizards. And he hits hardest, too. Luckily, the Lizards won't do much moving if you're not in their range.  Each big circle represents a spot we can move on. They're color-coded based on who controls the territory. I moved one of our units so you could see the different colors. Zexens are orange, Grasslanders are green, and neutral is grey. The smaller circles are pathways to the different spots. Units can move a few spaces on their own territory, but only one on other territories. If you try to move onto an enemy territory, you will have to fight their units.  When being attacked, the defending unit gets to pick who to intercept the attack with. If you defeat the unit you're attacking, or cause them to retreat, you move onto that spot so long as no one else is on it. Additionally, if you attack a unit, and another unit of yours has a clear path to who you're attacking, you get a cover bonus. Cover is good. Being on the receiving end of cover is bad. Of course, I should have moved them on to the same space as Chris, along with Roland's unit. Bazba rolls in to attack our units, which isn't too bad. He's the smallest of the Lizards, so he doesn't hit quite as hard.  Attacking or getting attacked brings us to a battle similar to the ones we'd see normally. You'll notice we have fewer options, though, and there's another few quirks to these that I'll bring up in a moment. We can attack, defend, or retreat. Whatever we do will last a few rounds, before we'll be prompted to choose again.  Since our goal is just to survive, I decided to have our generics retreat.  You'll note that there are a couple dudes delegated as "leader" for their units. For us, it's the Zexen Commander generic, and for them it's Bazba. So long as the leader is up and fighting, the unit remains on the battlefield. If the leader goes down, though, the entire unit goes down with them and is defeated.  You'll notice, as well, that units do a lot less damage in Strategy Battles. 9 is pretty low, but it's not actually that awful.  26, though, is actually pretty good, especially this early in the game. Most Lizards will do around 20-23. For reference, Shiba and Dupa would out-damage Bazba by a pretty significant amount. Dupa would probably deal around 30, and Shiba probably in the 40s. The battle is stacked so that the Zexens will usually out-damage the Grasslanders. Since we're retreating, we only need to last a round or so before the battle concludes.  The generics move up, and Roland is attacked as well. I have him retreat as well, after a round of attacking.  At the end of the enemy turn, the Grasslanders get some reinforcements. : "There's no telling what has happened. But if the Lizard Clan has taken up arms, we can't just stand by and watch.": "Captain, contact has been lost with the rear. Our units risk being outflanked one by one. We could break through and enter the Grassland to escape...": "No! That would consign the other knights to death!": "Borus, wait! Listen to Salome.": "I do have a plan, but first we must break out of this tightening noose.": "Then so be it. Let's fight our way out!" With this, our objective has changed. Lucia and Beecham have both appeared as the leader of new units on the map, as well as a single generic Karayan unit between us and the way out. We'll have to fight through them. : "We must not overreact, but we must also clearly defend the honor of Zexen." We send our generics after the Karayan force. They're critty assholes.  Yeah, imagine this happening far more times than I'm comfortable with.  On more than one of my units.  You know how many crits I got?  None, that's how many.  We lose a unit in the process.  Finally, through sheer numbers, Roland pulls it off.  I start moving my units towards the goal point, though only Chris can move at this point.  In the enemy phase, Lucia moves up, and the generic Lizard unit attacks us. Since Lucia is in range as well, they get cover against us. I sacrifice our generic unit, who somehow manages to survive with 15 HP left.   A few of their other units move up as well, but we've got our eyes on the prize, and make for the plains.   Probably what you've been doing, considering I don't even know who those people were and they weren't mentioned until they were already dead.  : "What next, Salome? We cannot retreat to the Brass Castle now. Time is running out!"   : "It might work... if we have enough time.": "We must try. There's no other choice."  We're dropped off in the Amur Plains. There's a save point nearby, and we've only got one screen to get through until the end.  There are some boars and stuff running around the plains, but they're not much trouble.  Leaving the plains will prompt both the plains and Karaya Village to appear on her world map. Obviously we can't go towards Brass Castle, so we go towards the village...
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Feb 10, 2013 09:09
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Did you have any plans to talk about the trick with this strategy battle?
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Feb 10, 2013 10:41
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Yep, Shiba is the biggest of units. He's actually probably the strongest beastman unit in the entire series although that is a very low standard to be perfectly honest. Until you recruit him and Dupa, I was always convinced that Dupa would be the strongest and Shiba would just be a mountain of HP. Whereas Bazba is just a mediocre wind mage (He maxes out at C or B) and brutally average fighter. But that aside, it's almost time to be depressed again.
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Feb 10, 2013 10:54
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The strategy battle system in III is easily the biggest letdown of the game. And this was coming off of the wacky RNG of II's war system.
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Feb 10, 2013 11:29
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CmdrKing posted:Did you have any plans to talk about the trick with this strategy battle? I didn't. If you want to, though, go for it. I'll include it in the update maybe. Azure_Horizon posted:The strategy battle system in III is easily the biggest letdown of the game. And this was coming off of the wacky RNG of II's war system. Yeahhhh strategy battles are sort of bad. There aren't too many of them, so it's not that cumbersome, but it's definitely something they should have gone over a few more times. Testekill posted:Yep, Shiba is the biggest of units. He's actually probably the strongest beastman unit in the entire series although that is a very low standard to be perfectly honest. Until you recruit him and Dupa, I was always convinced that Dupa would be the strongest and Shiba would just be a mountain of HP. I'm sort of just happy they made Bazba into a mage-y character. They had to do some serious shenanigans to get it done, though, and it resulted in him being a really odd unit in battle. And yes, Shiba is sort of scary when it comes to battles. He's one of the few who really shines in strategy battles, as well. Along with Augustine.
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Feb 10, 2013 16:29
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You can attack nearby units even if there aren't small circles connecting big spaces? How can you judge if a unit is in range of another?
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Feb 10, 2013 17:01
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:You can attack nearby units even if there aren't small circles connecting big spaces? How can you judge if a unit is in range of another? You can only attack units in range via little circles connecting big circles. The "attack" function is the same as the "move" function, where you move onto the space where the unit(s) you want to attack are located. You get a cover bonus if an ally unit is also in range via small circles. If you're talking about Bazba attacking us, there was a connection between the two spots, it was just covered by the unit panes.
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Feb 10, 2013 17:07
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:You can attack nearby units even if there aren't small circles connecting big spaces? How can you judge if a unit is in range of another? You can attack long-range if there are runes involved, but we don't have those yet.
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Feb 10, 2013 19:16
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As is usually the case in Suikoden III, it is possible to win this battle. That is, the enemy units here can be all be defeated, and there are a finite number of them. The Karayan units are the only reinforcements in this battle. However, as you may have noticed, all the grasslander units here badly outstat you and, as a practical matter, you just aren't going to beat all of them. However, the boars and such you can fight at the Amur Plains are actually very good experience. With a little grinding, you can level up to about 35 here without too much trouble. With that, getting some of the better armors available at the Council Headquarters shop, and raising your Armor Protect ranks, you can give yourself enough stats to reasonably fight the Grasslanders here. Pointless, since you just did the fight? Nope. Like every Suikoden game, if you wipe in Suikoden III, you're given the option to continue, which kicks you back to the last save point with any levels and inventory you gained intact. Anyway, so you make a save before resting and going to the treaty signing, you can level up at the plains, go back to this strategy fight, and win. The game continues as normal (your off-screen troops are still in trouble!), but winning gives you a Major Victory, which in game terms means you get a bonus. The bonus here... is +2 levels. Since Suikoden III defense is, for any non-animal character, 0 without equips, as long as you don't go nuts raising Repel or similar skills it's pretty easy to be killed at your inflated levels at the Amur Plains again. And do the battle, and gain +2 levels, repeatedly. Now, in every Suikoden game, due to the way experience scaling works, getting levels much above 60 is monstrously impractical. So doing this is actually the best overall way level up to 99. And since Chris is level 99, the handful of characters who join at [Main Char Level+/- modifier] will similarly be ridiculously overlevelled. It takes a lot of time, but at the same time Suikoden III really enjoys throwing 'battles you can technically win but are rigged against you' at you, and if you want a simple way to win those, well here it is.
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Feb 10, 2013 19:56
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Ah, Salome. I love that goofy-haircut-having robo-cleric. Suikoden III was one of those games I played right to the end of, then didn't finish. I'm going to have to follow this.
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Feb 14, 2013 00:26
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 19:49 |
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So, to recap: from Hugo's perspective, the Zexen have attacked without provocation, and from Chris's perspective, the Grasslanders attacked without provocation. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that something doesn't add up and someone somewhere is probably stirring up poo poo. But whom? Hmm...
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Feb 14, 2013 00:40
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