Football Finances, come laugh at portsmouth

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Ray Parlour > Football Finances, come laugh at portsmouth

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Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Giovanni_Sinclair posted:

Just checked out the site and read it requited the person to be a UK resident and has a UK bank account, is there a way a overseas supporter to join in?

If you send me the money I could act as your UK based proxy?

# ? Mar 12, 2013 22:40

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# ? May 9, 2024 13:25

Loving Africa Chaps: Dec 3, 2007; We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.

Giovanni_Sinclair posted:

Just checked out the site and read it requited the person to be a UK resident and has a UK bank account, is there a way a overseas supporter to join in?

You could join the arsenal supporters trust but at the moment for some bizarre legal reasons you can't join fanshare. I think they're working on it.

# ? Mar 12, 2013 23:29

DEAD MAN'S SHOE: Nov 23, 2003; We will become evil and the stars will come alive

Maybe its to do with laws against foreign ownership

# ? Mar 13, 2013 00:11

Babby Thatcher: May 3, 2004; concept by my buddy kyle

I know the Mirror is an awful source so I'm praying bullshit, but they reckon Ken Bates is interested in purchasing Plymouth Argyle.

In unrelated news, I am in the market myself for a small vial of cyanide and a solicitor who specialises in writing wills

# ? Mar 13, 2013 02:05

Total Meatlove: Jan 28, 2007; Rangers died, shoujo Hitler cried ;_;

Babby Thatcher posted:

I know the Mirror is an awful source so I'm praying bullshit, but they reckon Ken Bates is interested in purchasing Plymouth Argyle.

In unrelated news, I am in the market myself for a small vial of cyanide and a solicitor who specialises in writing wills

Have the people who quite fancied Risdale popped up and called him a good potential chairman yet?

# ? Mar 13, 2013 02:20

Babby Thatcher: May 3, 2004; concept by my buddy kyle

Fat Guy Sexting posted:

Have the people who quite fancied Risdale popped up and called him a good potential chairman yet?

quote:

Bates wont be in it for property tho. He is a football man. That much can be said

quote:

Id probably have him, this club couldnt really get any worse in my opinion

quote:

I'd love ken bates to buy this club and boot out the tossers, any improvement on ninty first position the speccy messiah has led us to has got to be welcomed !bates in,,,,,,,,,,,, breant,,,, out,,,,,,,,,,

murder me

# ? Mar 13, 2013 02:30

Akileese: Feb 6, 2005

Babby Thatcher posted:

murder me

Aren't Plymouth Argyle in very big trouble financially or has that since passed? If you had a choice between liquidation or Ken Bates what do you choose (I'm pretty sure I know the answer)?

# ? Mar 13, 2013 02:58

pik_d: Feb 24, 2006; follow the white dove

TRP Post of the Month October 2021

Akileese posted:

Aren't Plymouth Argyle in very big trouble financially or has that since passed? If you had a choice between liquidation or Ken Bates what do you choose (I'm pretty sure I know the answer)?

Combine the two and liquefy Ken Bates

# ? Mar 13, 2013 04:37

Babby Thatcher: May 3, 2004; concept by my buddy kyle

Akileese posted:

Aren't Plymouth Argyle in very big trouble financially or has that since passed? If you had a choice between liquidation or Ken Bates what do you choose (I'm pretty sure I know the answer)?

they're not in serious trouble of going out of existence any more, but the lesser of several evils who bought us - a property developer who was by his own admission clueless about football - has given up on even pretending to give a poo poo about the team's fortunes a couple of years ahead of schedule. We'll either go down to the Conference and be really in the poo poo until we get the right manager, Carlisle or Exeter-style, or float around in mid-table or lower League Two as long as there's no money.

Ken Bates loads his clubs up with crazy debts for his own gain/property ambitions. James Brent, the current owner, just leaves them to stagnate while he expands his hotel chain down the road.

# ? Mar 13, 2013 05:18

the sex ghost: Sep 6, 2009

I'm not sure king Ken will be able to manage owning plymouth while keeping his role as President For Life at Leeds so I think you might be safe

# ? Mar 13, 2013 09:34

Crazy Ted: Jul 29, 2003

Could get interesting...

The Guardian posted:

EU prepares to blow final whistle on Spain's debt-ridden football clubs

Deportivo among teams facing extinction if competition authorities force Spanish officials to collect taxes

It is the powerhouse of global football, home to its greatest players and a World Cup-winning national team, but Spain's soccer bubble looks set to explode as European authorities prepare to halt public funding of debt-ridden clubs.

In a move that threatens to provoke the partial collapse of a football system built on unsustainable piles of debt, competition authorities in Brussels want Spain's government to explain why it has allowed clubs to build up vast, unpaid tax and social security debts.

With many clubs in the top two divisions already having trouble paying bank debts totalling some �3.5bn (�3bn), the move would likely force some clubs into liquidation. Historic names such as Deportivo de La Coru�a or Racing Santander could simply disappear. Other top clubs, such as Valencia, will have to sell players and face years of decline.

Indignant MEPs are already demanding to know why Spain is happy to request �40bn in aid from eurozone taxpayers for its banks while allowing the clubs to build up a tax debt of �692m.

"This is unfair since all other Spanish taxpayers, as well as the other European football clubs, must, of course, be up to date with their tax payments," said Willy Meyer, a Spanish MEP for the United Left coalition, in a recent question to the competition commissioner, Joaqu�n Almunia. Meyer pointed out that while clubs pay multimillion-euro salaries to star players, the cash-strapped government of Mariano Rajoy has imposed cuts on public services.

"It is incomprehensible that while taxes such as VAT are being increased and hospitals and public companies are being privatised as a means of generating short-term resources, these private, recreational bodies are receiving preferential tax treatment," he said.

Other European soccer clubs are also crying foul. "This beggars belief. We pay hundreds of millions of euros to keep Spain out of the poo poo and then they let the clubs off their debts," Uli Hoeness, the president of the German side Bayern Munich, complained when debt figures were made public last year.

A spokesman for Almunia said a formal investigation � similar to one looking at public subsidies to Dutch soccer clubs � must wait until the Spanish government has replied to its inquiries.

Analysts warn that action from Almunia to force Spain's tax authorities to recover debts will expose the chronic financing problem in Spanish soccer.

Professor Jos� Mar�a Gay de Li�bana, of the University of Barcelona, said reckless lending � especially by former savings banks controlled by local politicians � had created a bubble that must eventually burst.

"When people ask me what clubs could be in danger, I reply with the list of the only clubs that are not in any kind of danger. They are Barcelona, Real Madrid and Athletic Bilbao," said Gay de Li�bana. "Hoeness is, basically, right. If I don't pay my taxes, then the authorities come after me. But that doesn't happen to the clubs, which are not treated like other companies."

Twenty-two first- and second-division clubs are in insolvency proceedings or have been in recent years. Several are thought to be struggling to survive strict debt-repayment plans imposed by creditors. They include former league title-winners such as Deportivo de la Coru�a and a long list of historic clubs such as Zaragoza, Racing Santander, Mallorca, Albacete and Betis.

Deportivo � semi-finalists in the Champions League in 2004 � had been allowed to build up a tax debt of �96m, a report to an insolvency court this week revealed. "The real cause of the insolvency is a complete lack of realism in management, taking on spending and investment that is absolutely beyond the club's economic possibilities," the club's administrators wrote.

Indirect funding of clubs via publicly owned TV stations and loan guarantees from regional governments are expected to come under scrutiny in Brussels.

Valencia, one of Spain's top clubs, passed temporarily into public hands this year after it failed to pay back a loan guaranteed by the regional government. It is now in the hands of the Bankia bank, but this was nationalised after it ran up �19bn in losses last year, meaning the club � which has had to stop work on a vast, half-built stadium in the city � is now in effect owned by Spanish taxpayers.

Two other clubs, Elche and Hercules, are also part-owned by Valencia's regional government, which guaranteed loans that they failed to pay back.

"Is it the European commission's intention, in rescuing Spanish banks, to allow the practice of granting bank loans at subsidised rates to clubs in the Spanish professional football league � which is a form of favouritism � to continue?" the Italian MEP Mario Borghezio asked in a parliamentary question.

Almunia's commission confirmed that it had asked Spain to provide it with figures on clubs' public debts.

"The commission agrees that, under the state aid rules, tax and social security debts of professional football clubs must not be treated differently from similar debts of other economic actors," Almunia said. Rajoy has ordered tax authorities to tighten control of clubs and the sports minister, Jos� Ignacio Wert, says debt has begun to fall.

Several clubs, including Deportivo de La Coru�a, have seen television or football pools income embargoed. The debt has been reduced since early last year, but progress is slow.

"This cannot be sorted out overnight," said one source close to the Spanish tax authorities.

"Soccer is a very highly charged affair. If you go after a club too much, then the supporters may rise against you," said Gay de Li�bana.

He believes that is why authorities are targeting Deportivo de La Coru�a rather than a highly indebted but well-supported club such as Atl�tico Madrid. "Deportivo fans are not going to block the streets of Madrid," he said.

As clubs tighten their belts, players will be sold and the quality of soccer in Spain will likely fall. "Talent will flee to the Premier League in Britain or elsewhere," said Gay de Li�bana.

The Spanish case and the Brussels inquiry into �10m of public aid to several Dutch clubs, including PSV Eindhoven, threatens to spill over in to other countries.

"If you start asking Italian and French clubs whether they are paying market rents for municipally owned stadiums, we will get into a very big tangle," said Gay de Li�bana.

# ? Mar 22, 2013 14:30

Dudley: Feb 24, 2003; Tasty

Coventry City's "non-operating subsidiary" goes into administration.

Not sure how that works in terms of managing to escape points deductions but it means they might need to find a new stadium very, very quickly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21912436

# ? Mar 23, 2013 18:11

EvilHawk: Sep 15, 2009; LIVARPOOL!

Klopp's 13pts clear thanks to video ref

Crazy Ted posted:

Could get interesting...

So basically Barca and Madrid will further cement their dominance? Spain has always seemed the worst for debt-ridden clubs, so it will be interesting to see how this decision may affect other countries.

# ? Mar 23, 2013 18:39

Total Meatlove: Jan 28, 2007; Rangers died, shoujo Hitler cried ;_;

EvilHawk posted:

So basically Barca and Madrid will further cement their dominance? Spain has always seemed the worst for debt-ridden clubs, so it will be interesting to see how this decision may affect other countries.

Barca and Madrid are busy suing Fuentes for publishing his client list so that dominance might be short lived.

Add to that the Portuguese League is hosed as well and the entire Iberian football scene isn't going to be doing well for a while.

# ? Mar 23, 2013 18:40

Tortuga: Aug 27, 2011; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Dudley posted:

Coventry City's "non-operating subsidiary" goes into administration.

Not sure how that works in terms of managing to escape points deductions but it means they might need to find a new stadium very, very quickly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21912436

You would think the Ricoh arean people would do what they could to keep Coventry there. What else are they going to do with a football stadium in Coventry?

# ? Mar 23, 2013 18:47

FullLeatherJacket: Dec 30, 2004; Chiunque pu� essere Luther Blissett, semplicemente adottando il nome Luther Blissett

Dudley posted:

Coventry City's "non-operating subsidiary" goes into administration.

Not sure how that works in terms of managing to escape points deductions but it means they might need to find a new stadium very, very quickly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21912436

Based on the precedent of what happened to Southampton, they'll be deducted 10 points almost certainly.

It's the universe's way of telling people from Coventry that trying is the first step toward failure.

# ? Mar 23, 2013 18:49

The Croc: Dec 19, 2004; A-well-a everybody's heard about the bird!

OH YEAH!

Tortuga posted:

You would think the Ricoh arean people would do what they could to keep Coventry there. What else are they going to do with a football stadium in Coventry?

It has a hotel built into it so there's still that but yeah its basically gonna become a hotel with a large pretty much unused stadium attached.

# ? Mar 23, 2013 20:15

DickEmery: Dec 5, 2004

Tortuga posted:

You would think the Ricoh arean people would do what they could to keep Coventry there. What else are they going to do with a football stadium in Coventry?

Force the club into liquidation and then buy them?

# ? Mar 23, 2013 20:24

Crazy Ted: Jul 29, 2003

The Croc posted:

It has a hotel built into it so there's still that but yeah its basically gonna become a hotel with a large pretty much unused stadium attached.

Turn it into a GoKart arena with a putt-putt course in the middle.

# ? Mar 24, 2013 02:00

ephex: Nov 4, 2007; PHWOAR CRIMINAL

Tortuga posted:

You would think the Ricoh arean people would do what they could to keep Coventry there. What else are they going to do with a football stadium in Coventry?

Burn it down, then cash in on the insurance.

# ? Mar 24, 2013 13:03

TimberJoe: Oct 24, 2010; aww yeah im on this burger and shit

Winner of the PWM POTM for March 2012

Tortuga posted:

You would think the Ricoh arean people would do what they could to keep Coventry there. What else are they going to do with a football stadium in Coventry?

Block all moves to sell the land in an attempt to get a fat payout from tesco?

# ? Mar 24, 2013 13:45

Dudley: Feb 24, 2003; Tasty

Crazy Ted posted:

Turn it into a GoKart arena with a putt-putt course in the middle.

In a weird coincidence, the karting trade show "Kartmania" was held there in 2011. Then it moved to Silverstone because the owners of the Ricoh Arena were twats.

# ? Mar 24, 2013 18:27

TimberJoe: Oct 24, 2010; aww yeah im on this burger and shit

Winner of the PWM POTM for March 2012

quote:

Trevor Birch, BDO partner and joint administrator of Portsmouth Football Club, has released the following statement:

�I am pleased to announce that we have reached an agreement with Portpin and the Pompey Supporters� Trust (PST) which paves the way for the PST to complete its purchase of Portsmouth Football Club.

�We were appointed to secure the best deal for creditors and today�s developments enable us to fulfil that obligation.

�It is gratifying that both the PST and Portpin have worked hard to reach an agreement that safeguards the club�s future without the need for a court decision. This is the best possible solution for everyone involved.

�We will now work with the PST, Portpin and the Football League to conclude the deal as quickly as possible in order to enable the new owners to begin the urgent task of rebuilding the club.

�The past year has been incredibly challenging for everybody involved with the club � fans, staff and players � and I want to thank them for their support.

�They deserve credit for keeping Portsmouth Football Club alive despite what, at times, seemed like insurmountable obstacles and I�m sure their actions will inspire supporters� groups at other clubs in the future.�

quote:

Ashley Brown, chairman of the Pompey Supporters� Trust, has released the following statement.

�This is an historic day for Portsmouth Football Club and for Pompey fans everywhere.

�At last, the tough work done over the last year is over and we can start to rebuild our club.

�Pompey fans are now days away from owning and running our club and becoming the biggest community-owned football club in the country.

�We have a lot of people to thank � and much more to say � but will do that once the detail of today�s (April 10) settlement are finalised.

�For now, we would like to offer heartfelt thanks to Pompey fans all over the world who have pledged money and have saved our club from liquidation.

�Now the next chapter of hard work begins to transform our club into something the community of Portsmouth can be proud of � both on and off the field. Play up Pompey.�

We shall wait and see

# ? Apr 10, 2013 17:20

Ninpo: Aug 6, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

Hope it works out for you guys, this has dragged on far too long.

# ? Apr 11, 2013 01:17

serious gaylord: Sep 16, 2007; what.

First order of business. Ban the guy with the bell.

# ? Apr 11, 2013 07:15

Dudley: Feb 24, 2003; Tasty

Sadly he's probably mayor of the supporter's trust or something.

# ? Apr 11, 2013 09:50

irlZaphod: Mar 26, 2004; Kiss the Joycon to Kiss Zelda

I read this post yesterday about the negative press Wigan are getting about not being able to sell out their FA Cup semi-final ticket allocation. I know it was mentioned over in the FA Cup thread, but I thought discussion on it would get drowned out on it there by matchday posting, and plus it's kinda finances related.

http://www.standamf.com/2013/04/11/in-defence-of-wigan-athletic/

(It contains a Smiths reference, in case you need any more encouragement to read it).

Basically, the whole thing boils down to a few points:

1) The 21k tickets which they've sold is just shy of their highest attendance at the DW this season, and 2k more than the average attendance.

2) The population of Wigan is roughly 80,000, according to the most recent census data.

3) There are no trains back to Wigan at a time on Saturday which would allow the travelling fans to actually get back there, meaning an expensive overnight stay in a London hotel (which, I'm sure, is great if you're a parent wanting to bring your kid(s) to a Cup semi-final).

4) Coupled with their not-exactly-huge population, there are no less than 17 rival football league clubs within about 50 minutes drive of Wigan, including both Liverpool and Manchester United. (This point is to help explain how Southend took ~31k fans to Wembley last weekend for the JPT Final; not only is the population of Southend almost double that of Wigan, but their closest rival is Colchester, 50 minutes away. And yes, Millwall will have the same issue with a lot of clubs nearby, but London easily has the population to support that many clubs)

The FA have taken a lot of flack over the past few years because of similar circumstances, since they started holding the semis at Wembley to help pay for the stadium, and really they deserve it. I don't think that this will give them a wake-up call, either, since they can just sell tickets to "neutral" fans at �30-50 a pop (is this how much the tickets cost through Wigan/Millwall, does anyone know? Or was it higher?) It's all part of the continuing lovely treatment of fans, when they could be holding the kick-off at an earlier time (maybe the Met objected), or go back to holding the semi-finals at a neutral, more central venue (lol).

# ? Apr 12, 2013 11:27

fat gay nonce: May 13, 2003; _{actual penis length: |-----------|}

Winner, PWM POTM January

Given that Wigan doesn't have the fan base to support 31K of tickets for all of the reasons outlined above I don't think that holding it somewhere else would have given a massively different result. They are also unfortunately up against a club that is pretty well supported and holds the domestic attendance record for new Wembley so any poor ticket sales are going to look worse in comparison. The scheduling the game against train services is ridiculous especially since it's a game that could have extra time and penalties.

I'm not sure how heavily enforced the "neutral" section is but considering the proximity for Millwall fans I'd expect the majority of that section to be fans who didn't know season ticket holders who could get them spare tickets.

# ? Apr 12, 2013 11:56

irlZaphod: Mar 26, 2004; Kiss the Joycon to Kiss Zelda

It's reasonable to think that if it was at a more reasonable venue (cheaper to get to, with the possibility of same-day travel there and back), you might get more "fair weather" fans, more families etc. Southend don't normally have 31k attendances either but still brought that many fans last weekend.

Yeah, it is a fair point that the train schedules still wouldn't take into account the possibility of extra time/penalties. It looks like the last train is about 8:30pm from Euston, if it was, say, a 3pm kick-off, it would be all wrapped up by 6-ish regardless of more than 90 minutes being played, which would give plenty of time to get there for it.

Are there occasionally additional trains put on for situations like this? Is that usually more a capacity thing than anything else (I recall seeing that Virgin or someone had put on extra trains)? I know that here, Irish Rail sometimes put on extra late trains to let people get home after matches in Lansdowne or Thomond Park. That would be for matches with a guaranteed finishing time, though. Plus it's obviously not as straightforward in the UK, either.

As for the neutral section, well the FA say there won't be club colours in there, but we'll see. It's not like it's hard to sneak in scarves/jerseys/flags.

I dunno, maybe you're right that no matter what the circumstances, Wigan wouldn't be able to bring 31k fans anywhere. I just agreed with the article's sentiment that it was worthwhile having a discussion a bit more in depth than "lol Wigan have no fans".

# ? Apr 12, 2013 12:26

fat gay nonce: May 13, 2003; _{actual penis length: |-----------|}

Winner, PWM POTM January

I agree that the slagging off Wigan are getting for not selling out 31K is stupid. I think trains should be scheduled to get people back especially since the game is being played later due to the policing requirements of the 3pm league games around London.

# ? Apr 12, 2013 12:52

FullLeatherJacket: Dec 30, 2004; Chiunque pu� essere Luther Blissett, semplicemente adottando il nome Luther Blissett

irlZaphod posted:

As for the neutral section, well the FA say there won't be club colours in there, but we'll see. It's not like it's hard to sneak in scarves/jerseys/flags.

I'm going to come right out and state that I think selling 20,000 tickets to Millwall casuals would be a bad idea, but I guess I don't work for the FA.

# ? Apr 12, 2013 13:10

Hashtag Banterzone: Dec 8, 2005; Lifetime Winner of the willkill4food Honorary Bad Posting Award in PWM

jyrka posted this in the photos thread:

Seems like a regional league would help eastern europe and the balkans compete. Even with Platini giving more CL and Europa league berths to those countries, I can't imagine them challenging the western league as it stands.

# ? Apr 12, 2013 17:27

the sex ghost: Sep 6, 2009

Split Europe in two through the middle of Switzerland and have clubs play in two Conferences, North (Real Football) and South (Iberio-Balkan Tricks And Flicks) and have a playoff every year

# ? Apr 12, 2013 17:37

FullLeatherJacket: Dec 30, 2004; Chiunque pu� essere Luther Blissett, semplicemente adottando il nome Luther Blissett

Again, I don't want to be the "bad idea" guy, but I'm gonna go straight on ahead and state that a multi-ethnic regional league in the Balkans would be, also, a bad idea.

# ? Apr 12, 2013 17:43

Dudley: Feb 24, 2003; Tasty

irlZaphod posted:

since they can just sell tickets to "neutral" fans at �30-50 a pop (is this how much the tickets cost through Wigan/Millwall, does anyone know? Or was it higher?)

When I checked neutral tickets they were the exact same prices for the same places as I've paid for the Chelsea end in the Sunday match.

# ? Apr 12, 2013 17:54

belgend: Mar 6, 2008; me when The Club do another win

Hashtag Banterzone posted:

jyrka posted this in the photos thread:

Seems like a regional league would help eastern europe and the balkans compete. Even with Platini giving more CL and Europa league berths to those countries, I can't imagine them challenging the western league as it oustands.

Those Eastern European leagues already have been doing a bit better than most leagues in other levels.

# ? Apr 12, 2013 18:23

euroboy: Mar 24, 2004

the sex ghost posted:

Split Europe in two through the middle of Switzerland and have clubs play in two Conferences, North (Real Football) and South (Iberio-Balkan Tricks And Flicks) and have a playoff every year

This is unironically something I'd love to see

# ? Apr 12, 2013 19:04

belgend: Mar 6, 2008; me when The Club do another win

euroboy posted:

This is unironically something I'd love to see

Maybe Norwegian teams can actually qualify for a thing then :mmmhmm:

# ? Apr 12, 2013 19:17

Crazy Ted: Jul 29, 2003

FullLeatherJacket posted:

Again, I don't want to be the "bad idea" guy, but I'm gonna go straight on ahead and state that a multi-ethnic regional league in the Balkans would be, also, a bad idea.

Or if you enjoy watching stadium fires, stabbings, and small munitions fire during your football games it could be a fantastic idea.

# ? Apr 12, 2013 20:55

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# ? May 9, 2024 13:25

Byolante: Mar 23, 2008; by Cyrano4747

Crazy Ted posted:

Or if you enjoy watching stadium fires, stabbings, and small munitions fire during your football games it could be a fantastic idea.

We are talking about the Balkans not ITaly. Geeze.

# ? Apr 12, 2013 23:08

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Ray Parlour > Football Finances, come laugh at portsmouth

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