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systran posted:I've been playing competitive FG's since Guilty Gear XX #R, so cool random assumption. If you really played for that long you should know the stigma around that game and the answer isn't anime game. You should know with every other fighting game there is a stigma too it that the "FGC" will try to shut out any other game.
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Apr 13, 2013 00:06
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systran posted:I think I will concede this point. I have just played LoL casually since beta and never felt a rush to get IP, so my perception is probably warped. I got all the runes I needed a very long time ago and I have enough characters to play any role. I never spent any real money on the game. Yeah, for people who have been playing forever it's just a complete non-issue, but every time they add another thing to buy it becomes harder and harder for new players or off-and-on players to have any chance of catching up. Having an insane barrier of entry to a fighting game that tries to get new people in sounds like an abysmal idea given how hard it is for people to get into them in the first place. Better tutorials will help this (League's tutorial is garbage unless they changed it in the past 4 months, most fighting games don't even have tutorials), but learning a complex system on top of having to unlock nearly everything that exists just doesn't make for a very good introduction for new players. League manages to get around this a bit by locking down a bunch of gameplay aspects at early levels, but I don't know how you'd get away with that in a fighting game. I'd love to see something good that brings new players into fighting games and helps them understand what's up in the game itself rather than having to hunt down guides on the internet, but I don't think the League system is the way to do it.
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Apr 13, 2013 00:10
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Guilty Gear was during the "drought". At that time the only games I could play locally were Guilty Gear or Third Strike. Nothing was streamed so the entire "FGC" to me was just the people I played with locally, rare tournaments, and we occasionally had people come from other cities or we'd travel there to play other scenes. You had to import decent sticks from Japan and I think I paid like $50 on shipping alone to get a Hori. After SBO you had to wait for the DVD's to come out and one person would buy them and then we'd all go to his house and watch it. I love how I have to argue that I am "OG" enough to make a point that the market is saturated right now. It's cool if you can get play out of a niche game, but I personally wouldn't want to invest a lot of time into a game that I couldn't guarantee is going to be played at most tournaments or in most scenes.
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Apr 13, 2013 00:11
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systran posted:I love how I have to argue that I am "OG" enough to make a point that the market is saturated right now. It's cool if you can get play out of a niche game, but I personally wouldn't want to invest a lot of time into a game that I couldn't guarantee is going to be played at most tournaments or in most scenes. None of your argument thus far has seemed to be about the market being saturated. Your entire argument seemed to be just that SFIV/Marvel are juggernauts that cannot be unseated, and that any other game can only take over for them or become too niche to matter.
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Apr 13, 2013 00:14
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sentrygun posted:
The one-on-one nature of FG's turns a lot of people off. It's what appeals to me the most about it, but casual players generally have trouble getting into anything that makes their complete lack of skill completely apparent. LoL works because you can yell at your "lovely team mate" when you gently caress up (and this is also the biggest downfall of DOTA-likes), but if you get destroyed in a FG, you just realize that you suck. Story modes, trials, and costumes help to ease casual gamers in, but there really isn't enough. I've heard the Virtua Fighter games have great in-game tutorials. I don't know why they don't put more focus on this, my nebulous idea of a monetized DLC model would not directly mirror LoL, but it would aim to make the barrier to entry lower and make money along the way. I don't have concrete ideas for what this would look like.
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Apr 13, 2013 00:15
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systran posted:The one-on-one nature of FG's turns a lot of people off. It's what appeals to me the most about it, but casual players generally have trouble getting into anything that makes their complete lack of skill completely apparent. As an aside, I hate direct 1on1 RTSes and Board games, but I don't have a problem with FGs.
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Apr 13, 2013 00:17
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systran posted:The one-on-one nature of FG's turns a lot of people off. It's what appeals to me the most about it, but casual players generally have trouble getting into anything that makes their complete lack of skill completely apparent. LoL works because you can yell at your "lovely team mate" when you gently caress up (and this is also the biggest downfall of DOTA-likes), but if you get destroyed in a FG, you just realize that you suck. Story modes, trials, and costumes help to ease casual gamers in, but there really isn't enough. I've heard the Virtua Fighter games have great in-game tutorials. I don't know why they don't put more focus on this, my nebulous idea of a monetized DLC model would not directly mirror LoL, but it would aim to make the barrier to entry lower and make money along the way. I don't have concrete ideas for what this would look like. VF has awesome tutorials but at the same time its difficulty is legendary so you're about the same as if you were starting, say, SFIV without any tutorials.
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Apr 13, 2013 00:18
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Even though nobody mentioned it I'll go ahead and say that Jojo's HD is still alive as hell if you have a good enough connection to play Japan. I don't know if Vsav has the same hardcore fan base, but if it's half as dedicated it won't be hard to find a match this time next year
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Apr 13, 2013 00:42
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Just tried the Injustice demo and dang, why cant all games have command lists like this? It explains what the move actually does and provides frame data!
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Apr 13, 2013 00:55
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Gutcruncher posted:Just tried the Injustice demo and dang, why cant all games have command lists like this? It explains what the move actually does and provides frame data! I dunno. I guess I'll go with the tried and true answer of "Japan doesn't care" or something.
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Apr 13, 2013 01:07
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Most of the big 'niche' games now are bigger than anything was prior to SF4 coming out but that is apparently not enough now?
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Apr 13, 2013 01:13
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Adopting the LoL model for fighting games is a lovely idea because in Dotalikes (and btw in Dota 2 you get all the characters right from the start) you're expected to be able to play a lot of different characters seriously to be a good player. That means that even if you don't get a hero you want right from the start it's not a big deal - he's just one character in your arsenal. In fighting games most players just have one character that they play seriously, so if you don't get your main right from the start it means you'll have to either grind until your get him or pay for him. And BTW, how exactly would you handle giving out points in a fighting game? In LoL everything is online, but a lot of fighting game players play very little to no online. Would you give out points for local matches (making it easy to game the system)? Would you give out points for training mode, since that's also an important part of playing a fighting game?
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Apr 13, 2013 01:17
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getitoffgetitoff posted:And BTW, how exactly would you handle giving out points in a fighting game? In LoL everything is online, but a lot of fighting game players play very little to no online. Would you give out points for local matches (making it easy to game the system)? Would you give out points for training mode, since that's also an important part of playing a fighting game? Per-character leaderboards of how much combo damage and number of hits you've done would be fun. Perhaps even from various situations like combos off throws or using a specific move. I still think asymmetric choices have no place in competitive games though and thus wouldn't play league of sf.
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Apr 13, 2013 01:37
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Jeffrey posted:Per-character leaderboards of how much combo damage and number of hits you've done would be fun. Perhaps even from various situations like combos off throws or using a specific move. I still think asymmetric choices have no place in competitive games though and thus wouldn't play league of sf. I have spoken to people who 100% seriously want the call of duty model in fighting games. I would quit fighting games if I suddenly needed to get 500 counter hit hadoukens to use the ex version on ryu, then repeat the process for every shoto.
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Apr 13, 2013 02:02
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Ryoga posted:I have spoken to people who 100% seriously want the call of duty model in fighting games. I would quit fighting games if I suddenly needed to get 500 counter hit hadoukens to use the ex version on ryu, then repeat the process for every shoto. Ugh, every time you prestige you'd lose all the extra characters too.
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Apr 13, 2013 02:34
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I mean I've done the F2P for character business model in my head: Basically the characters would amount to a full price game (30-60, initially), and there would be a ton of cosmetic DLC. Think of how the latest VF game works. You can buy sets of items for characters that make a costume, or pick and choose. All characters are free for a beat em up style mode, you can unlock a character after playing a single player mode enough with friends, which would resemble the Smash Brawl single player. The fighting game would need controls closer to Smash which is not as subtractive as one would think, btw, you can add a lot of special moves and buttons to this style of control (so there is a 1 to 1 control scheme between single and multiplayer). This would have the added effect of letting you try characters out before you buy them. This would mean a hardcore player can be really good for a small amount of money or time, but if you want to mess around and stuff, or make your dudes look cool, you can pay whatever you want. You can definitely work with it. And add more cosmetic content, and add more characters (a few bucks per character) along the way. I don't think it's ridiculous to ask 100 dollars out of someone for a game with ongoing content and patches. Most hardcore fighting game players dump like 100+ dollars on a series anyway. (60 + 40 for the update). 100ish dollars for actual game content a good time out from release if you want every character (which you don't need...) is I think is around the fairest amount of money. I think this would be fair. You can try characters, buy a bunch of stuff, and you aren't limited to figuring out who you like on a rotation or anything. The only drawback is this would have to be on a closed system. PC would not work. The game would also have to be good  Also I would want to design it because I want to design a fighting game 
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Apr 13, 2013 02:37
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Waterbed posted:I mean I've done the F2P for character business model in my head: Too bad it did not remain there
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Apr 13, 2013 02:47
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Waterbed posted:I mean I've done the F2P for character business model in my head: I have absolutely no idea what the rest of your post was supposed to mean.
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Apr 13, 2013 02:54
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redmercer posted:Too bad it did not remain there Haha Henaki you silly guy I agree with this post~
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Apr 13, 2013 02:57
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Waterbed posted:Also I would want to design it because I want to design a fighting game
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Apr 13, 2013 03:29
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If fighting games become call of duty or LOL I will quit playing them and not look back.
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Apr 13, 2013 03:32
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I wonder what the next generation of the top fighting games will bring to the table differently. SF5? I think SF4 is practically a perfect fighting game. What could they change? Probably focus attacks since the "parry" mechanic is always what changes in between fighting games. I think they realize going 3D is a mistake. perhaps just more of the same, with an even larger roster? I really don't know what they would change to make it objectively better. MK10? Netcode aside, MK9 has problems, the two biggest in my eyes being character balance and the sluggish block. Balance is strange in MK because everyone has wacky powers so they need to balance it in a rock-paper-scissors style, like how a spammer will get killed by a teleporter, that sort of thing. I realize it would be super difficult to balance, but when everyone uses one of about 4 characters, you know there's a problem. Second, and the reason I stopped playing, was the absurd delay you have when you try to block something. SF has instant blocking and instant release; and it feels great. When you can't punish someone who's jump kicking or even just jabbing, that's a problem. Fix those two problems (and the netcode) and you have a much better game. MvC4? I don't play this game since it's too much for me and requires entirely different skills but I understand what kind of animal it is and it seems to satisfy very well. I've seen almost the entire roster in play at some point, which is quite impressive. I imagine the next version would have more in the way of synergies and mechanics than actual character changes. I dunno. Am I wrong in thinking that fighters are reaching a zenith in some franchises and might take a step backwards if they change too much? (Yet how else do you address something getting stale?)
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Apr 13, 2013 03:37
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NarkyBark posted:MK10? Netcode aside, MK9 has problems, the two biggest in my eyes being character balance and the sluggish block. Balance is strange in MK because everyone has wacky powers so they need to balance it in a rock-paper-scissors style, like how a spammer will get killed by a teleporter, that sort of thing. I realize it would be super difficult to balance, but when everyone uses one of about 4 characters, you know there's a problem. Second, and the reason I stopped playing, was the absurd delay you have when you try to block something. SF has instant blocking and instant release; and it feels great. When you can't punish someone who's jump kicking or even just jabbing, that's a problem. Fix those two problems (and the netcode) and you have a much better game. The MK devs made a new game called Injustice that addresses a lot of these issues (aside from netcode which is probably still arse).
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Apr 13, 2013 03:43
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NarkyBark posted:I dunno. Am I wrong in thinking that fighters are reaching a zenith in some franchises and might take a step backwards if they change too much? (Yet how else do you address something getting stale?) That was basically the idea behind SF4, to go back to SF2 because it worked well. FGs are not generally like other games in that, the actual games are just frameworks for people to compete with each other. There are people who have just played ST for years and years because it isn't like playing Final Fantasy for 10 years, the game is the chessboard and the innovation and excitement comes from the players. My hope for SF5, or MVC4, any series sequel really, is to bring basically the same ideas back that made them popular to begin with but change it enough that the game takes a few years for people to "figure out." There's something different between playing ST (or really even SF4) in 2013 than playing it a year after release. It is exciting when a new FG has just been released and everyone's local scene is grinding to find out what works. The Street Fighter series doesn't have to do anything revolutionary or even innovative anymore for it to not be stale. If they keep bringing out footsie based 2D fighting games, where many types of playstyles are available, people will enjoy them. The basic design works. Don't outsmart yourself!
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Apr 13, 2013 03:50
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:The MK devs made a new game called Injustice that addresses a lot of these issues (aside from netcode which is probably still arse). Some people have it already and say the netcode is improved, but it is day -4 so...
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Apr 13, 2013 03:51
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NarkyBark posted:SF5? I think SF4 is practically a perfect fighting game. Wow this guy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 13, 2013 03:52
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NarkyBark posted:SF5? I think SF4 is practically a perfect fighting game. No offense but how many other fighting games have you played?
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Apr 13, 2013 04:03
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"Perfect Fighting Game" is a title that I think can only really apply to ST and Garou. Maybe UMK3.
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Apr 13, 2013 04:19
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Marvel vs Capcom 1 is the perfect fighting game because it has Captain America's theme in it.
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Apr 13, 2013 04:22
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Mr. Fun posted:I have absolutely no idea what the rest of your post was supposed to mean. You pay for the game, and it comes with all characters playable in single player (which would be a beat em up like Smash's journey mode or whatever it's called). Play enough single player, and you can unlock those characters in multiplayer. Alternatively, you can pay real money to unlock for multiplayer or buy cosmetic DLC like skins and costumes and whatnot. I think Mike Z said he wanted to do this with Skullgirls, where all DLC characters are available in training mode and you'd only have to pay to use them online, so it's a try-before-you-buy model, but I haven't been keeping up with Skullgirls news, so I have no idea if it's still planned that way. Also, the perfect fighting game is Cyberbots. 
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Apr 13, 2013 04:26
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inthesto posted:You pay for the game, and it comes with all characters playable in single player (which would be a beat em up like Smash's journey mode or whatever it's called). Play enough single player, and you can unlock those characters in multiplayer. That's the exact opposite of how it should work.
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Apr 13, 2013 04:27
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I feel like a really good idea would be to just ship a game with a lot of fun characters and you don't have to jump through any hoops to play them, you can just enjoy the whole game.
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Apr 13, 2013 04:30
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Unlocking characters in Marvel vs Capcom 2 was a nightmare. No, game, I don't wanna spend all these points on Bone Wolverine, stop making him show up. I want Gambit. No, not bone wolverine, gambit. 
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Apr 13, 2013 04:31
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AXE COP posted:That's the exact opposite of how it should work. While this is what I'd prefer as the end user, I think the point of the thought experiment was to devise a way where players actually pay money for things. Single player ain't gonna do it.
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Apr 13, 2013 04:33
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El Estrago Bonito posted:"Perfect Fighting Game" is a title that I think can only really apply to ST and Garou. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Heritage for the Future
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Apr 13, 2013 04:34
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The future of fighting games is indie developers. Fighters live and die off of their game system rather than the amount of content the game can offer, and big companies just aren't good at design. Inde devs aren't any better at it necessarily, game design as an academic discipline doesn't even really exist so everyone's on pretty equal footing, it's just that smaller teams put creative control in fewer hands and are more willing to put in the work to make something great. The Skullgirls donation drive and Divekick's convention showings have made it pretty clear that there is an interest in fighters outside the FGC; I can't say exactly what impact they'll have on the genera as a whole but I'm interested to find out.
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Apr 13, 2013 04:34
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AXE COP posted:That's the exact opposite of how it should work. I never said I liked the idea. It's just that a similar model worked fantastically well for League of Legends, and companies sure do love milking their customers over and over (and judging by how SFxT went over, Capcom is pretty bad at it).
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Apr 13, 2013 04:34
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Jmcrofts posted:Wow this guy. getitoffgetitoff posted:No offense but how many other fighting games have you played? I think it goes without saying that this guy was just giving his opinion. There's no objective judgment that can be made as to which game deserves the honor of being considered the "perfect fighting game," but I'd wager that there are a lot of people out there who share his opinion. I agree with him, personally. It hooked me in a way other fighting games just weren't able to, but I'm willing to concede that a large part of that might be that living in Japan, and participating in the arcade culture surrounding the game gave it a sense of novelty that I wasn't able to experience during the SF2 or 3 eras. Starting from the very bottom of the arcade rankings and climbing all the way up to Grand Master in the area with the fiercest competition in the whole world (tokyo dudes are strong, man) was a really special experience that no other game has given me. I also honestly just think that the game is a whole god drat boatload of fun.
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Apr 13, 2013 04:37
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Mr. Fun posted:I feel like a really good idea would be to just ship a game with a lot of fun characters and you don't have to jump through any hoops to play them, you can just enjoy the whole game.
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Apr 13, 2013 05:26
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What fun characters did SF4 ship with because I'm still trying to find one.
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Apr 13, 2013 05:44
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