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Crosscontaminant posted:How can I learn to stop buttonmashing and play properly? When I try to actually follow instructions regarding proper play I just go back to not taking any action because I think too slowly, so I get frustrated and buttonmash because it may not be tournament-optimal play but at least I land hits and am not 100% guaranteed to lose. Are fighting games just not right for me? Also try playing SF2 and picking two buttons to use and unbinding the other buttons.
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Apr 14, 2013 22:30
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Xom posted:Read this blog post by KayinN. Or, you know, just play SF2 normally and learn normally. Why bother with gimmicks?
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Apr 15, 2013 09:19
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This person speaks directly to my soul. Thank you.
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Apr 15, 2013 10:03
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Something that helped me get alright at ST despite playing very little is watching tons of japanese match vids and thinking about their gameplay. They've been playing this at a high level for well over a decade so you can assume whatever they do is ideal (the game doesn't have a ton of anime mechanics that can't be grasped from just watching). You get to learn how to play footsies, how to defend because you get to see all the different strings, how to best deal with certain matchups, what not to do by virtue of them not doing it and just a ton of offensive setups. Learning combos, timing and option selects is a training mode thing, everything else should come to you by getting a lot of play in and not auto-piloting.
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Apr 15, 2013 10:51
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Cabbagepots posted:Or, you know, just play SF2 normally and learn normally. Why bother with gimmicks? Because learning with the gimmick can take street fighter from "I have six buttons, which means six standing punches and kicks, six crouching punches and kicks, some number of close, some number of far, throws, focus attacks, specials, ex specials, a super, and an ultra? What am I supposed to do when they jump at me?" to "I have a button for punch and a button for kick. When they jump at me I press punch. When they land I crouch and press kick." It makes the game way more approachable for somebody who's trying to get out of the mindset that leads to mashing.
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Apr 15, 2013 14:49
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Thanks to those who came down at the Heart Of Gaming last night in London. We really hope you enjoyed it and we're sorry the whole thing wasn't fully done, especially with the DX cabs. Seeing so many people in one building playing on cabs and setups made us really happy. Hopefully everyone except for Christina (shutup, Chris) felt like they were in an actual arcade than just some building with random games. There are some big plans for the future of the arcade, especially with things happening on weekdays.
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Apr 15, 2013 15:32
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Xom posted:Read this blog post by KayinN. Dive into the air with the Dive Button and Kick your opponent with the Kick Button.
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Apr 15, 2013 16:28
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Coca Koala posted:Because learning with the gimmick can take street fighter from "I have six buttons, which means six standing punches and kicks, six crouching punches and kicks, some number of close, some number of far, throws, focus attacks, specials, ex specials, a super, and an ultra? What am I supposed to do when they jump at me?" to "I have a button for punch and a button for kick. When they jump at me I press punch. When they land I crouch and press kick." Or you could just accept that you're going to lose, a lot, and say "I don't care if I win or lose this round, but no matter what I happens, I won't do <a bad thing> and I will make an effort to <a good thing like anti-airs> properly." That thing might be jumping, wake up ultra, mashing DP, or whatever. Concentrate on one thing until you stop doing it, move on. A huge amount of dumb or bad play is muscle memory taking over because the brain gives up and the only way to unlearn it is to make a concerted effort to do so. If you have a friend who can point out when you do that dumb autopilot poo poo, even better because half the time you don't even realise you're doing until you suffer the consequences. Most of the characters in the game can't even do a basic hit confirm without at least two strengths of punch or kick and you're needlessly gimping yourself and slowing down your own learning. If having too many options and doing too much dumb poo poo is a problem that you can't overcome without unplugging buttons, play Boxer. It's basically impossible to do anything retarded with Boxer unless you headbutt things, use non-LP/LK rush punches, or charge TAP too far.
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Apr 16, 2013 00:54
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Iron Galaxy is going to start streaming DiveKick on Monday nights at 9PM Central with reveals each week. This week is a new character. http://www.twitch.tv/irongalaxy
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Apr 16, 2013 02:40
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iPodschun posted:Iron Galaxy is going to start streaming DiveKick on Monday nights at 9PM Central with reveals each week. This week is a new character. Thanks for the link. Divekick looks like really silly fun, I can't wait to be able to play it.
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Apr 16, 2013 03:42
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Smegmatron posted:Or you could just accept that you're going to lose, a lot, and say "I don't care if I win or lose this round, but no matter what I happens, I won't do <a bad thing> and I will make an effort to <a good thing like anti-airs> properly." That thing might be jumping, wake up ultra, mashing DP, or whatever. Concentrate on one thing until you stop doing it, move on. A huge amount of dumb or bad play is muscle memory taking over because the brain gives up and the only way to unlearn it is to make a concerted effort to do so. If you have a friend who can point out when you do that dumb autopilot poo poo, even better because half the time you don't even realise you're doing until you suffer the consequences. Why is "Choose one or two things that you want to work on during the match and focus on doing them properly" a good way to learn while "Choosing two buttons to use (thus giving you one or two things to work on) and focus on using them properly" a bad way to learn?
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Apr 16, 2013 13:09
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Could we not just say that both methods have merit and are a nice way of learning 2d fighters?
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Apr 16, 2013 13:18
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Play a round with Ryu using nothing but HP and LK. Let me know how much you learn.
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Apr 16, 2013 13:19
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Play Third Strike using nothing but Yang's divekick.
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Apr 16, 2013 13:25
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In terms of learning defense, I would start playing matches where I would never attack and only try to block/parry/avoid everything the opponent does. Definitely gets you out of the habit of just pressing buttons all the time.
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Apr 16, 2013 13:35
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Endorph posted:Play Third Strike using nothing but Yang's divekick. 
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Apr 16, 2013 13:50
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redmercer posted:Also, in most games the basic practice mode is pretty useless in its default settings because it's going to give you infinite meter and not defend against anything. Even playing Arcade Mode is better than that What? No, this is absolute nonsense. Practice mode is great for - wait for it - practicing your moves and combos. Playing with real people is great for learning tactics, the difference between safe and unsafe stuff, and generally getting better. Playing Arcade Mode is worthless and will not help you get better at anything (except learning how to beat Arcade Mode.)
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Apr 16, 2013 13:50
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Soulcleaver posted:Didn't they make a whole game about this?
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Apr 16, 2013 13:53
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Smegmatron posted:Play a round with Ryu using nothing but HP and LK. If the small amount that you learn from using nothing by HP and LK is "how to go through a round with pressing buttons every time everything happens" then it seems like using two buttons to stop mashing would be an utterly successful endeavor. That's what somebody asked, that's why it was suggested, and you're not explaining why it's not helpful. It's a way to break a very specific bad habit that's standing in the way of further success; your advice is "deal with it" and "choose two things to do and focus on getting them done properly", you still haven't clarified why your advice is fundamentally different from what somebody else suggested.
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Apr 16, 2013 13:59
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Is Injustice a good fighting game? I'm trying to read the main thread but people are saying things like "and it occurred to me that they could do a DLC pack that is not just the Amazing Zoo Crew of Earth-C, but also throw in the Just'a Lotta Animals of Earth C Minus as a plain old fashioned reskin pack of the original JLA." and I don't understand that sentence at all. And all this weird franchise/canon bullshit and the story but not a lot about how the actual game is going to play. I tried watching Arts stream but he wasn't talking much about the game, just beating people with Sinestro. There's some weird levelling thing with XP? Most importantly, which character is the most likely to be called cheap/dishonourable online and where can I find a move list for him/her before this comes out on friday?
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Apr 16, 2013 14:17
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JohnnyBigPotatoes posted:Is Injustice a good fighting game? I'm trying to read the main thread but people are saying things like "and it occurred to me that they could do a DLC pack that is not just the Amazing Zoo Crew of Earth-C, but also throw in the Just'a Lotta Animals of Earth C Minus as a plain old fashioned reskin pack of the original JLA." and I don't understand that sentence at all. And all this weird franchise/canon bullshit and the story but not a lot about how the actual game is going to play. It's early, but it looks like MK but better. So it's pretty good but not perfect. And the XP thing is just for unlockable costumes and poo poo. Cheap characters? I heard Doomsday is pretty good with a super armor power and crazy powerful combos. Like a playable MK boss.
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Apr 16, 2013 14:21
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Also, a lot of stuff in the early game is going to look incredibly cheap until people figure out how to deal with. Arthur spam in MVC3 looked nuts Day 1.
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Apr 16, 2013 14:24
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Coca Koala posted:If the small amount that you learn from using nothing by HP and LK is "how to go through a round with pressing buttons every time everything happens" then it seems like using two buttons to stop mashing would be an utterly successful endeavor. That's what somebody asked, that's why it was suggested, and you're not explaining why it's not helpful. It's a way to break a very specific bad habit that's standing in the way of further success; your advice is "deal with it" and "choose two things to do and focus on getting them done properly", you still haven't clarified why your advice is fundamentally different from what somebody else suggested. How is playing the game with more than half of your options removed going to help you learn to apply the correct option for a given situation? As soon as someone works out that you're incapable of defending against a certain tactic, they're going to do it over and over again. If you've unbound your LP or LK button, you're going to get thrown for entire rounds. If your character's good anti-air button is missing, you're getting jumped at for free all day. You're already on the back foot, why make it even easier for someone to blow you up and even harder for you to deal with it? I've never heard anybody walk into an arcade with a busted up cabinet and say "AWESOME! Most of these buttons are hosed! I'm sure going to learn the poo poo out of this game today!"
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Apr 16, 2013 14:30
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JohnnyBigPotatoes posted:Most importantly, which character is the most likely to be called cheap/dishonourable online and where can I find a move list for him/her before this comes out on friday? Green Lantern is one contender. Floe played him on stream yesterday, keepawaying several opponents to ragequitting.
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Apr 16, 2013 14:33
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Smegmatron posted:How is playing the game with more than half of your options removed going to help you learn to apply the correct option for a given situation? As soon as someone works out that you're incapable of defending against a certain tactic, they're going to do it over and over again. If you've unbound your LP or LK button, you're going to get thrown for entire rounds. If your character's good anti-air button is missing, you're getting jumped at for free all day. You're already on the back foot, why make it even easier for someone to blow you up and even harder for you to deal with it? I don't think you're fully on board with the problem they're discussing. The problem isn't losing, or being unable to deal with certain tactics. The problem some new players face is that they can't apply any tactics at all because they're overwhelmed with options.
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Apr 16, 2013 14:48
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JohnnyBigPotatoes posted:Is Injustice a good fighting game? It seems to be pretty decent, but I just can't get over the janky looking animations that are always the hallmark of Netherrealm's games.
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Apr 16, 2013 15:48
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Smegmatron posted:How is playing the game with more than half of your options removed going to help you learn to apply the correct option for a given situation? Smegmatron posted:As soon as someone works out that you're incapable of defending against a certain tactic, they're going to do it over and over again. If you've unbound your LP or LK button, you're going to get thrown for entire rounds. If your character's good anti-air button is missing, you're getting jumped at for free all day. You're already on the back foot, why make it even easier for someone to blow you up and even harder for you to deal with it? Xom posted:Also try playing SF2 and picking two buttons to use and unbinding the other buttons.
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Apr 16, 2013 16:31
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Smegmatron posted:How is playing the game with more than half of your options removed going to help you learn to apply the correct option for a given situation? As soon as someone works out that you're incapable of defending against a certain tactic, they're going to do it over and over again. If you've unbound your LP or LK button, you're going to get thrown for entire rounds. If your character's good anti-air button is missing, you're getting jumped at for free all day. You're already on the back foot, why make it even easier for someone to blow you up and even harder for you to deal with it? Because when you're still trying to decide whether you should use LP, MP, HP, LK, MK, HK, Focus attack, or a special when your opponent is standing at neutral and you think they're about to jump in, you're going to get paralyzed with indecision because you have so many options. That's not up for discussion; that's a thing that happens. People who are learning a system get overwhelmed when they're presented with too much choice, there's been a bunch of psych research into this effect. There's a reason when you start playing a new game (eg Dishonored) they introduce tools to the player slowly. Given that as humans, we tend to get overwhelmed with options, a way to get rid of that overwhelming feeling is to remove the vast majority of the options. It's very hard to quickly decide between which of fifteen things you want to do when somebody jumps in at you in Street Fighter. It's very easy to quickly decide between which of two things you want to do when somebody jumps in at you in Street Fighter. I can't think of a less complicated way to explain this, so I really hope you understand it; it's fundamental to the entire idea that we're discussing. Obviously you're not going to challenge somebody to a serious match and only use two buttons. That's a dumb idea and I don't understand why you're suggesting somebody would do it, because it's loving stupid and has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. However, when you're still trying to learn how to play the game, when you're still trying to learn basic strategy, when you're still trying to learn what all the buttons do and when you should be pressing them, it's easier to limit your options right out of the gate and say "I'm only going to worry about these two things right now". If you're playing somebody in a serious match and you're not using LP and LK, then sure, they'll probably throw the poo poo out of you. But if you sit down next to your friend and they tell you "Hey, I'm still trying to figure out how not to mash buttons so I'm only gonna use MP and HK right now, can you go easy on me" and your first thought is "gently caress yeah I'm gonna beat the poo poo out of this scrub and teach him that he's got to bring his A-game if he wants to play in my house" then I guess I don't really know what to tell you.
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Apr 16, 2013 16:33
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Coca Koala posted:Because when you're still trying to decide whether you should use LP, MP, HP, LK, MK, HK, Focus attack, or a special when your opponent is standing at neutral and you think they're about to jump in, you're going to get paralyzed with indecision because you have so many options. That's not up for discussion; that's a thing that happens. People who are learning a system get overwhelmed when they're presented with too much choice, there's been a bunch of psych research into this effect. There's a reason when you start playing a new game (eg Dishonored) they introduce tools to the player slowly. The concept you're clamoring for is called "zone of proximal development." It's the idea that learning happens when challenges which slightly exceed a person's already mastered skills, but not by too much. It's a valid and proven concept, but it's totally independent of how much creativity or choice a learner is allowed to exercise in the process. You learn to play these games by picking a relatively simple and effective character - Boxer for instance - and saying "this one is my anti-air button" even if it doesn't necessarily work every time and you focus on using that. You don't need to deprive yourself of other options at the same time. You can also have HK as your "this one is my I can't think of anything better option." Ideally, you'll also know one combo that you'll fish for or try to apply in obvious situations. Cr.lp, cr.lp, cr.lk xx Headbutt/Rush works. That's four buttons and we still haven't even moved beyond anti-airs, a simple combo, and a button to press when you're out of ideas. There's a difference between simplifying your options and not having the tools you need to actually compete. How the poo poo are you meant to progress if all you have is your anti-air button and your Out-of-ideas button? If you just want to practice hitting dudes out of the air when they jump, go into training mode and whack a jumping dummy until you're happy with the timing of it.
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Apr 16, 2013 17:12
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Because you would do those things just long enough to understand them and then add in more stuff? I don't think the method in question is ideal for everyone, but if you try the way you are describing and still find yourself mashing random poo poo, then maybe you can unbind buttons?
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Apr 16, 2013 17:18
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Mr. Fun posted:It seems to be pretty decent, but I just can't get over the janky looking animations that are always the hallmark of Netherrealm's games. On the upside they're literally superheroes, so it almost looks more fitting when they flop around like weightless marionettes on a wall bounce. Also it seems like it'd be pretty easy to drag your friends into playing as their favorite superheroes.
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Apr 16, 2013 17:20
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Smegmatron posted:The concept you're clamoring for is called "zone of proximal development." It's the idea that learning happens when challenges which slightly exceed a person's already mastered skills, but not by too much. It's a valid and proven concept, but it's totally independent of how much creativity or choice a learner is allowed to exercise in the process. You learn to play these games by picking a relatively simple and effective character - Boxer for instance - and saying "this one is my anti-air button" even if it doesn't necessarily work every time and you focus on using that. You don't need to deprive yourself of other options at the same time. You can also have HK as your "this one is my I can't think of anything better option." Ideally, you'll also know one combo that you'll fish for or try to apply in obvious situations. Cr.lp, cr.lp, cr.lk xx Headbutt/Rush works. That's four buttons and we still haven't even moved beyond anti-airs, a simple combo, and a button to press when you're out of ideas. Nobody is talking about the zone of proximal development. Where the gently caress are you pulling that from? We're talking about the paradox of choice. When you have a bunch of choices, it gets very hard to decide which one is best. That is the paradox of choice. That is "the concept [I'm] clamoring for", and the zone of proximal development has gently caress all to do with it. You're clearly not reading the words that I'm typing, and I seriously have no idea how to break down my point with simpler concepts or smaller words. I've done my best and you still haven't demonstrated that you understand, on a fundamental level, what we're trying to discuss.
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Apr 16, 2013 17:23
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Coca Koala posted:Nobody is talking about the zone of proximal development. Where the gently caress are you pulling that from? We're talking about the paradox of choice. When you have a bunch of choices, it gets very hard to decide which one is best. That is the paradox of choice. That is "the concept [I'm] clamoring for", and the zone of proximal development has gently caress all to do with it. Read the link that was posted earlier. The one that says improvement is measured by looking at how much decision making is removed from the gameplay and replaced with observation and reaction. You're saying decision making processes should be cut back on by making sure there's less options to decide on because half the buttons won't do anything, I'm saying people should be making decisions ahead of time and simply train themselves to hit certain buttons in certain situations, paying particular attention to whichever is causing the most problems at a given time. One is a crutch, the other is a process which takes time. You don't learn chess by taking everything off the board because you're still learning how not to throw pieces away.
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Apr 16, 2013 17:31
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You learn Go by starting out on a smaller board and practicing life or death exercises. Not everyone will benefit from this but that doesn't mean it's not a valid or effective way of learning.
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Apr 16, 2013 17:35
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Smegmatron posted:Read the link that was posted earlier. The one that says improvement is measured by looking at how much decision making is removed from the gameplay and replaced with observation and reaction. Right. And a good way to make the decision ahead of time is to say "I'm going to choose two buttons to hit during this game. If they jump at me, I'll use my punch button. When they land, I'll use my kick button." That's two buttons. Decision made. It's made ahead of time, just like you're suggesting! It's a great idea! I'm glad we agree that it's a good idea! One way to make sure you stick to that game plan of premade decisions (the gameplan that we both agree is a good idea!) is to unbind the rest of the buttons, so that you don't need to worry about them. That way, when you get into a situation you haven't anticipated, you don't need to worry about panicking and falling back into your bad habits of button mashing, all you have are your two simple options. Is this a strategy that's going to take you far at EVO? No, probably not. If somebody were asking for advice at how to play at EVO, I'd probably suggest that they use all six buttons (and maybe some of their specials, if they think they're ready). But if somebody's learning how to not button mash, limiting the buttons they press seems like a good way to do it. And we appear to be in agreement on that front, since you've suggesting a very similar idea up in your post! Again, I'm so glad we agree on this, because it's a sound strategy for learning to not button mash. And when you feel like you've got the hang of two buttons, you can start introducing more options. But you're probably not going to all of a sudden level up your gameplay in the middle of a round, so I think it's safe to say that when you're ready, you can rebind some buttons and play as normal.
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Apr 16, 2013 17:41
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Smegmatron posted:There's a difference between simplifying your options and not having the tools you need to actually compete. How the poo poo are you meant to progress if all you have is your anti-air button and your Out-of-ideas button? If you just want to practice hitting dudes out of the air when they jump, go into training mode and whack a jumping dummy until you're happy with the timing of it. It's almost as if there are multiple ways to learn and neither answer is wrong. You can do a bottom up approach where you add in tools slowly as you understand them, or you can do a top down one where you try everything and figure out which ones work well in what situations by using them. Different people will respond to them in different ways. I'm guessing that when people mash it is because of choice paralysis though, and so I do suspect that reducing the number of tools to think about is helpful. Picking a simple character does have a lot to do with it, and sure, the next thing you add in can be a simple hit confirm, or even a mixup between hit confirm and throw. I don't think starting anti air and sweep is a terrible idea though. (Bring on the 2 button ST tournament showdown.)
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Apr 16, 2013 17:48
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Unbinding buttons is really unnecessary given that most low-level players only use HP and HK anyway.
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Apr 16, 2013 17:55
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Brosnan posted:Unbinding buttons is really unnecessary given that most low-level players only use HP and HK anyway. I guess I was talking more in terms of just not using them, literally unbinding them is a little much, unless one doesn't have the discipline to not hit the other buttons.
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Apr 16, 2013 17:58
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I'll preface this by saying that I don't intend to argue or otherwise debate. I'm strictly curious. That said, why is Smash Bros. so often excluded from the realm of fighting games? I've only passing familiarity with the modern fighters, but am pretty intimately familiar with Smash Bros, specifically Melee, and the major ideas and concepts seem like they line up quite a bit. The idea of area control and pressing an advantage both seem like major themes across the board. Technical mastery is a thing everywhere. Smash used to even be played at EVO (and apparently is making a reappearance this July). So why is it that Smash isn't considered a 'fighter' by a lot of the other fighter scenes? If this is a touchy subject that opens a can of ugly warms, feel free to tell me to gently caress off and I'll be gone.
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Apr 16, 2013 18:05
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Honestly if you are unable to prevent yourself from hitting certain buttons even when focusing all of your cognitive energy on that singular goal, I'm not sure how just making those buttons not do anything is really going to help you in the long run. Most of the problem of moving past mashing doesn't come from being physically incapable of not mashing, it just comes from not thinking about/understanding your goals ahead of time and trying to patiently work toward them. Unbinding buttons is a dumb suggestion.Canine Blues Arooo posted:If this is a touchy subject that opens a can of ugly warms, feel free to tell me to gently caress off and I'll be gone. This is a touchy subject that opens a can of ugly worms, which is why it's mentioned in the OP.
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Apr 16, 2013 18:10
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