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ryan8723 posted:That's not really a supermax prison though. That would just a maximum security prison in the US. There is no question that the security in a US Supermax prison is significantly better than the Norwegian prison holding Breivik. Max security prisons are also inhumane and terrible. The "security" provided by supermax and max are both mostly bullshit ways to torture inmates and punish them in a collective form of societal bloodlust.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:09
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Morally Inept posted:Don't know why but this scared me the most. How the government can just strip people of their basic rights: He's not going to be tried as an enemy combatant, though. Anything that he says pre-miranda will probably not be admissible in court- which is a powerful tool because he could probably confess to the whole thing NOW, tell the police where any remaining bombs are, and it won't affect his ability to plead not-guilty later. (IANAL but that's my understanding. He definitely won't be charged as an enemy combatant though, that's insane)
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Apr 20, 2013 19:09
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ryan8723 posted:That's not really a supermax prison though. That would just a maximum security prison in the US. There is no question that the security in a US Supermax prison is significantly better than the Norwegian prison holding Breivik. Here's the thing though. Wouldn't any prison be a horrible thing to a person who lives in a free country - regardless of security level? Think of the things you do day to day - hang out with friends, go to the movies, play video games, get married have kids etc. Just imagine not only not being able to do those things at your leisure but not at all. I would think being removed from society would be punishment enough - why does it have to be in a tiny concrete room? Also the fact that some people get out and we should probably train them with skills and education and not be broken from violence and rape. Where do you think the words reformatory or penitentiary come from?
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Apr 20, 2013 19:09
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Wildlife Analysis posted:No, but being "perfectly okay" with psychological torture makes you a pretty horrible human being. The poster indicated this was not his intent, though. Only after he realized that he was going to get dogpiled for advocating sensory deprivation as a desired punishment, he then shifted to advocating it as an inevitable byproduct of a secure prison that simply cannot physically be designed in a way that doesn't produce mental torture (you see all those other prisons couldn't hold such teenage supermen as these).
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Apr 20, 2013 19:10
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ryan8723 posted:That's not really a supermax prison though. That would just a maximum security prison in the US. There is no question that the security in a US Supermax prison is significantly better than the Norwegian prison holding Breivik. But if the security at the Norwegian prison is holding Breivik just fine, it calls into question whether or not the conditions of a US supermax are even necessary if the general goal (keeping the inmate isolated from society) is still being attained.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:11
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Morally Inept posted:Don't know why but this scared me the most. How the government can just strip people of their basic rights: wikipedia posted:There is also a "public safety" exception to the requirement that Miranda warnings be given before questioning: for example, if the defendant is in possession of information regarding the location of an unattended gun or there are other similar exigent circumstances which require protection of the public, the defendant may be questioned without warning and his responses, though incriminating, will be admissible in evidence (see New York v. Quarles, 467 U.S. 649 (1984)). In 2009 the California Supreme Court upheld the conviction of Richard Allen Davis, finding that the public safety exception applied despite the fact that 64 days had passed from the disappearance of the girl later found to be murdered.[8] Anyone that says the public safety exception is applied because the suspect is a "enemy combatant" is a moron that doesn't actually understand the point of the exception. The point is to allow authorities to question suspects on the location of possibly dangerous materials (guns, bombs, chemicals) that are in need of immediate recovery or disarming to prevent death or injury.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:11
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ryan8723 posted:There is no question that the security in a US Supermax prison is significantly better than the Norwegian prison holding Breivik. The question is, do you really need that extra "security" or it is just used as a form of punishment? How many inmates have escaped or caused trouble in Norwegian maximum security prisons? What is next? Having minefields and no-fly zones with anti-air missile systems?
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Apr 20, 2013 19:11
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:Here's the thing though. Wouldn't any prison be a horrible thing to a person who lives in a free country - regardless of security level? Think of the things you do day to day - hang out with friends, go to the movies, play video games, get married have kids etc. Just imagine not only not being able to do those things at your leisure but not at all. I would think being removed from society would be punishment enough - why does it have to be in a tiny concrete room? Not to mention having to adhere to rigid structure and having corrections officers routinely inspecting your cell for contraband. I imagine if anyone here, myself included, were put in even minimum security prison for even just a month we'd come out a little different.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:11
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:Here's the thing though. Wouldn't any prison be a horrible thing to a person who lives in a free country - regardless of security level? Think of the things you do day to day - hang out with friends, go to the movies, play video games, get married have kids etc. Just imagine not only not being able to do those things at your leisure but not at all. I would think being removed from society would be punishment enough - why does it have to be in a tiny concrete room? So again, what should be done with these people? Send them to a resort in the middle of desert where they can't leave? It seems like many of you want to give these guys better lives than many non-criminals.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:12
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ryan8723 posted:That's not really a supermax prison though. That would just a maximum security prison in the US. There is no question that the security in a US Supermax prison is significantly better than the Norwegian prison holding Breivik. What makes a US supermax prison better than a Norwegian high-security prison?
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Apr 20, 2013 19:12
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Crasscrab posted:The house wasn't inside the perimeter, it was (I believe) a couple of blocks outside. Not according to the NYT map of the perimeter. I have indicated with a blue dot where he was found via that map (which obviously may not be correct) 
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Apr 20, 2013 19:12
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ryan8723 posted:So again, what should be done with these people? Send them to a resort in the middle of desert where they can't leave? It seems like many of you want to give these guys better lives than many non-criminals. I'm not sure what you can't process. Being totally removed from the freedoms of society and having to deal with a rigid structure for the rest of your life is quite the punishment. You can do what you want a resort and it's pleasurable. You can also leave.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:13
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Dr. Cogwerks posted:They are criminals, not supervillains. There's nothing smart about blowing up a crowd, I'd say you'd have to be pretty goddamn stupid in the first place to do that. This is a great comment imo, if they were smart and wanted to spread a message, whatever it was, they'd at least write a book, they'd find a group of people and spread their message, start debates, raise awareness over whatever problem they think society has, etc. This is just killing people for killing people's sake.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:14
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I don't know about the rest of you, but for me there's something really frightening about people who are envious of prisoners who are "allowed" to stay in a small room for the rest of their lives without ever being allowed to leave and compare it to a resort because they have tv and furniture.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:14
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Ha, they really didn't censor it.  It's left out on that clip but the full line is "This is our loving city, and no one is going to dictate our freedom." Also, as for whether supermax prison would be humane, I agree that it isn't. But you also have to take into consideration that this guy is going to be a huge risk for violence from other prisoners against him, even if everyone in a particular prison hates marathons, killing a kid makes you everyone's enemy. There should be retribution, but I think having to reflect on his own actions is going to take care of that just fine. Psychological torture like being completely isolated forever without any stimulation whatsoever is just going to break him and see the people who put him in there as the enemy, he needs to see himself as the enemy.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:14
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ryan8723 posted:So again, what should be done with these people? Send them to a resort in the middle of desert where they can't leave? It seems like many of you want to give these guys better lives than many non-criminals. The fact that non-criminals have lovely lives doesn't mean we have to make the criminals' lives even shittier. I am a socialist, so I advocate relatively comfortable lives for everyone.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:14
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Wildlife Analysis posted:Perhaps I overreacted, but the constant gleeful advocacy of torture, rape, and murder is just appalling. At some point it comes across as pure blood lust and evil. Where's the glee? I think you're mistaking a lack of sympathy and giving a gently caress about what happens to the worst of humanity as actively chomping at the bit to feed them into a meat grinder slowly. There's a pretty wide gap in the middle there, and I think most of the people you disagree with fit in there.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:14
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ryan8723 posted:So again, what should be done with these people? Send them to a resort in the middle of desert where they can't leave? It seems like many of you want to give these guys better lives than many non-criminals. "Resort", "21 years", who has the right wing prison bullshit bingo card? Edit: I forget "they give up their human rights"
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Apr 20, 2013 19:15
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Limbo posted:I was just reading the interview that the Boston police chief did and I am even more impressed by how the cops handled themselves in contrast to the Dorner situation in Los Angeles. A charge of manslaughter or second degree murder for killing his older brother would be a pretty hilarious addition to the heap of things sending him upriver. ryan8723 posted:So again, what should be done with these people? Send them to a resort in the middle of desert where they can't leave? It seems like many of you want to give these guys better lives than many non-criminals. http://voices.yahoo.com/image/77016/index.html?cat=17 quote:A cell at Wisconsin's Supermax prison in Boscobel. In November, a federal appellate judge likened conditions at the prison to "a Sovit Gulag in the 1930s." When I want to relax, I like to hop in my time machine, speak out against Stalin, and get sent to a work camp. The gulag is DEFINITELY what I think of when I think 'resort'. Go gently caress yourself. Mirthless fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Apr 20, 2013 |
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Apr 20, 2013 19:15
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Jose Valasquez posted:I believe someone earlier said that killing with bombs is a federal offense. Don't know if it's true or not Owning and using destructive devices like bombs is against federal law, so yeah, they can end up in the fed pen
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Apr 20, 2013 19:16
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How about that most Prisoners are given Health Care while staying at a Jail or Prison? Shouldn't every law abiding citizen be able to have that luxury?
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Apr 20, 2013 19:16
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Good to see other Boston goons got their sleep. I woke up about an hour ago, after staying up ~30 hours. I was wondering, did he screw himself over by getting citizenship? Does that make it easier for them to prosecute him? I just don't get why you would get citizenship in a country you're going to commit atrocities in. e: Because I'm pretty sure we don't have an extradition treaty with Russia.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:17
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Tim Selaty Jr posted:I don't know about the rest of you, but for me there's something really frightening about people who are envious of prisoners who are "allowed" to stay in a small room and watch TV for the rest of their lives without ever being allowed to leave and compare it to a resort. It's more that there are people who've lived lives worse off than how Breivik is right now and that really puts some people off. He has food, a bed, healthcare, television, books and some other things like that. Meanwhile, there are a ton of people living in developed countries who have:
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Apr 20, 2013 19:17
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Big Papi is a loving hilarious guy.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:17
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EPICAC posted:Do we have any confirmation of which 7-11 was robbed? The NYT map originally marked the 7-11 in the center of Central Square. I assumed that this was wrong, because it didn't seem likely that an MIT police officer would be responding there. The one in Tech Square always seemed more likely to me. Different maps mapped different areas. It's also possible that the 7/11 was entirely unrelated. MIT Police has said, I believe, that Collier was responding to an incident when he was shot. It is possible, however incredible it sounds, that he happened to have his blues on while the brothers happened to be walking by.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:18
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Is there a way to stop this thread from turning into one about the ethics of supermax prisons?
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Apr 20, 2013 19:18
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Wildlife Analysis posted:The fact that non-criminals have lovely lives doesn't mean we have to make the criminals' lives even shittier. I am a socialist, so I advocate relatively comfortable lives for everyone. That's the problem though, there is no way you are ever going to gain enough public support in the US to make prisons give their prisoners lives similar to Norwegian prisons. ESPECIALLY not with Supermax prisons.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:18
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ryan8723 posted:So again, what should be done with these people? Send them to a resort in the middle of desert where they can't leave? It seems like many of you want to give these guys better lives than many non-criminals.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:18
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Velvet Underarm posted:How about that most Prisoners are given Health Care while staying at a Jail or Prison? Shouldn't every law abiding citizen be able to have that luxury? Socialize your healthcare already. 
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Apr 20, 2013 19:18
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booshi posted:Good to see other Boston goons got their sleep. I woke up about an hour ago, after staying up ~30 hours. If anything, it saved his rear end because he cannot be tried as an "enemy combatant" like a bunch of politicians are calling for because he's a US citizen.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:18
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booshi posted:Good to see other Boston goons got their sleep. I woke up about an hour ago, after staying up ~30 hours. He's lucky. Had he not been an American he'd be water-boarded in Guantanamo by weeks end.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:18
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booshi posted:I just don't get why you would get citizenship in a country you're going to commit atrocities in. Seems like fairly strong evidence that he probably wasn't planning the attacks from as far back as the time he was pursuing citizenship.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:18
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Wildlife Analysis posted:Perhaps I overreacted, but the constant gleeful advocacy of torture, rape, and murder is just appalling. What? Where did anyone do this?
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Apr 20, 2013 19:19
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Godholio posted:Where's the glee? I think you're mistaking a lack of sympathy and giving a gently caress about what happens to the worst of humanity as actively chomping at the bit to feed them into a meat grinder slowly. There's a pretty wide gap in the middle there, and I think most of the people you disagree with fit in there. I have seen so much "I can't wait to see the fucker fry" or "can't wait to see what the other inmates do to him" responses to this that it is hard not to see that reflected in other comments. Like I said, maybe I just overreacted to his original statement. e: hehe, thanks for the avatar.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:19
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Velvet Underarm posted:How about that most Prisoners are given Health Care while staying at a Jail or Prison? Shouldn't every law abiding citizen be able to have that luxury? Yes.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:20
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Fog Tripper posted:What? Where did anyone do this? Maybe he's talking about all the lovely robot sex jokes from yesterday?
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Apr 20, 2013 19:20
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booshi posted:Good to see other Boston goons got their sleep. I woke up about an hour ago, after staying up ~30 hours. If he was a noncitizen he'd be getting shipped off to Guantanamo, so I think he'd be worse off. I still question why these guys didn't get on the first plane to Russia after the bombing. poo poo, they could have driven to Mexico in the time it took for them to piece out who the suspects were.
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Apr 20, 2013 19:20
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Wildlife Analysis posted:I have seen so much "I can't wait to see the fucker fry" or "can't wait to see what the other inmates do to him" responses to this that it is hard not to see that reflected in other comments. Like I said, maybe I just overreacted to his original statement. Fair enough. Edit: I didn't buy that. 
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Apr 20, 2013 19:20
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Fog Tripper posted:What? Where did anyone do this? probably a reference to the fact that we all want him to go to Federal "Pound me in the rear end" prison. (Except not, because he's going to be kept in solitary confinement all day for the rest of his life, which I guess is torture but what's the alternative?)
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Apr 20, 2013 19:21
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Morally Inept posted:He's lucky. Had he not been an American he'd be water-boarded in Guantanamo by weeks end. Yeah. Going to Guantanamo is a far, far worse punishment than any prison establishment in the United states. It's there any update on this piece of shits condition?
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Apr 20, 2013 19:21
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