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^ You still haven't stated your position on bus fares - should those go away also (with the difference funded by rich unicorn taxpayers also)?
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Jun 4, 2013 18:31
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THC posted:Nah gently caress that let's jus use the same exact one-size-fits-all strategy and marketing materials in every region and if it doesn't work for whatever reason or god forbid the people there get mad at us for making GBS threads cookie-cutter english symbols and terms all over their neighbourhood we can just go cry about it on Sun News or whatever I'm not sure if when you write stuff like this you are being intentionally daft or it just comes off that way. You do, at least, as I noted understand where I'm coming from but choose to be ignorant right? That is OK, remember me and punitive crime. But if what you assert is what you have logically concluded you are misinformed at best and foolish at worst. Hint: the fact that it is mandated is the issue. Obviously a company should have different strategies for different reasons its the nitpicking that causes companies to become spiteful and then leave/rollback expansion along with the jobs they create. At least I can understand your reason and then point out why I disagree. I am just trying to understand why you seem to not even understand the argument from the opposing side. Team THEOLOGY fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 18:31
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Lexicon posted:^ You still haven't stated your position on bus fares - should those go away also (with the difference funded by rich unicorn taxpayers also)? That sounds good to me actually. Outright eliminating fares would eliminate the need to collect fares, which is really loving expensive.
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Jun 4, 2013 18:35
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rhazes posted:The Port Mann's is 3.00 one-way, and I can't honestly remember if it is going to be increased over time to keep up with inflation, or if inflation will whittle that cost down over time to make it more reasonable over time. I hope it's the latter, and I bet whatever new bridge they put in will be horrendously expensive as well. The tolls themselves just seem to be punitive and excessive, but I guess that's what happens when there's a public-private partnership, of course the business wants to get in and gouge the poo poo out of people. They are not at all punitive considering they don't actually cover the cost of construction (by design). The whole problem with exurbs is precisely the externalities: they are attractive due to a very low cost per square-foot of living, except that price does not factor in the additional strain on public services which are paid for outside the city in question. You have a "free-market" feedback loop that indicates expanding the exurbs is efficient/profitable, except of course that this is only the case when you socialize the infrastructure costs. Without factoring that in the burden only keeps increasing and the problem only gets worse. Tolls and gas tax are very appropriate ways to fund this stuff. This is the current revenue breakdown for BC's Translink:  IMO the Transit fare portion is far too high and the property tax portion too low. Ultimately public transit serves the city as a whole and there is a clear relationship between property value and transit coverage - it really should be the primary revenue source.
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Jun 4, 2013 18:43
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They should use the honour system where it's the people's responsibility to buy their ticket/pass before boarding any public transit. Eliminate fare boxes, etc. but employ plain clothes inspectors who hand out juicy fines for those that didn't pay for their fare. I liked that in Vienna.
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Jun 4, 2013 18:43
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bunnyofdoom posted:Ha ha what? You know, even after your correction here I was still sure that a PM had been assassinated about a hundred and twenty years ago and googled around figuring I'd have a chance to snidely correct your misperception about Canadian history. Alas it turns out I'm completely wrong on this point and I'm really not sure where I got the idea that a PM had been killed while in office. Lexicon posted:^ You still haven't stated your position on bus fares - should those go away also (with the difference funded by rich unicorn taxpayers also)? Why not just pay transit fairs out of general revenue? Maybe it top it up with higher development fees in downtown areas or a vehicle registration tax or a slightly higher corporate and/or personal income tax rate? This is basically how the infrastructure for cars gets funded. I don't see why its pie-in-the-sky to think that we could subsidize transit without charging people per trip that they take. Tallinn, the capital city of Estonia, just implemented universal free transit, so there are some precedents for the idea in other dense first world urban environments. There's nothing particularly fantastical about it other than the fact it goes against the grain of economic policy in Canada. Objectively speaking, however, its no more or less silly than hundreds of other policies that we are already implementing.
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Jun 4, 2013 18:45
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Team THEOLOGY posted:I'm not sure if when you write stuff like this you are being intentionally daft or it just comes off that way. You do, at least, as I noted understand where I'm coming from but choose to be ignorant right? That is OK, remember me and punitive crime. But if what you assert is what you have logically concluded you are misinformed at best and foolish at worst. I actually don't understand what your point is. Canada is a bilangual country. That's going to cause some adaptations. There's french speakers outside of Québec too.
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Jun 4, 2013 18:46
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Pretty much every good transit system I've ever been on used a system of "buy a single ticket worth X amount of time on the entire transit network" or a monthly pass or what ever plus very very random inspections with big fines. Actually paying or swiping a card to get on a bus or tram or train or what ever slow everything down and needs amazingly expensive equipment. It also means you can only get on via the front door. I'd love it if Vancouver moved to a system more like that plus the tickets were cheap as poo poo because most of the funding came from taxes. Or just go 100% free. If people complain "What if a homeless sleeps on the train!" then we raise taxes again and solve poverty and homeless issues. Just keep taxing until poo poo is fixed! I call it my "tax and spend" strategy. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 18:47
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Baronjutter posted:That sounds good to me actually. Outright eliminating fares would eliminate the need to collect fares, which is really loving expensive. Lower fares with spotty in-person enforcement (which is essentially what we had before) is fine too. The fines are so low compared to the ticket price atm that I wouldn't be surprised if from a strictly cost-benefit point of view, skipping fares may actually come out ahead. We should also really really have concession or free bus passes for low income households.
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Jun 4, 2013 18:54
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ZeeBoi posted:They should use the honour system where it's the people's responsibility to buy their ticket/pass before boarding any public transit. Eliminate fare boxes, etc. but employ plain clothes inspectors who hand out juicy fines for those that didn't pay for their fare. This worked fine in the full swing of post-communist-kleptocracy Romania, I'm sure Vancouver can manage yeah. Honestly, if it weren't for the Port-Mann, the stupid Compass system would probably be my Translink bug-bear of choice.
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Jun 4, 2013 18:56
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tripwood posted:I actually don't understand what your point is. Canada is a bilangual country. That's going to cause some adaptations. There's french speakers outside of Québec too. Again, you don't understand it? It don't agree. I am arguing it is ridiculous that happened. Let TH or Harvey's do what they want without mandating it first. If its that bad for them to write it the way they do everywhere else then they won't be visited by a large majority of the population and they will fail. To force it creates a flaw in what is a generally market based system. To force the government to do it and any public service, sure (even though sometimes that's not the case.) to force a private business to do it simply makes no sense in a market based economy. That's my point. I thought I had basically made it, apparently not. I don't ask SAQ to hang its logo in English too, but there are English speakers in QC, conversely the same can be said of Alberta not forcing companies to do everything in French. I have a big issue with the language police. (Lol pasta) Anyway I am a big proponent of taxing business, and I am generally OK with the gently caress business attitude but to force language on people and companies that are not owned by the public trust seems ridiculous at best. Regulate safety, sure, tax business, sure. Tell/force them to use any language and you're an rear end in a top hat. Be it English, French or loving Swahili. Team THEOLOGY fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 18:57
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Mr. Wynand posted:Lower fares with spotty in-person enforcement (which is essentially what we had before) is fine too. The fines are so low compared to the ticket price atm that I wouldn't be surprised if from a strictly cost-benefit point of view, skipping fares may actually come out ahead. Yeah actually I'd say this is the most ideal system. Have transit passes done a bit like your medical premiums. If you make under X amount you get a free pass, if you make over X amount your yearly pass is $100, if you make over Y it's $150 and so on. Also gently caress ikea http://politicsrespun.org/2013/05/profits-before-people-richmond-ikea-lockout-enters-day-17/ \/\/ I've heard they're actually making less profit after the high costs of the new fare gates and the whole thing was political and they were TOLD it was worthless to implement. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 19:00
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ZeeBoi posted:They should use the honour system where it's the people's responsibility to buy their ticket/pass before boarding any public transit. Eliminate fare boxes, etc. but employ plain clothes inspectors who hand out juicy fines for those that didn't pay for their fare. This is how Vancouver works, at least on the SkyTrain. Or at least, how the SkyTrain used to work - they are putting in fare gates despite the increased revenue projections nowhere near covering the cost of capital for the project 
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Jun 4, 2013 19:01
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Team THEOLOGY posted:Again, you don't understand it? It don't agree. I am arguing it is ridiculous that happened. Let TH or Harvey's do what they want without mandating it first. If its that bad for them to write it the way they do everywhere else then they won't be visited by a large majority of the population and they will fail. To force it creates a flaw in what is a generally market based system. We already forced companies to list the ingredients that they use in food and to adhere to certain standards when advertising their products. We have very specific rules for how you run your business, we regulate how food is prepared and we have exacting specifications for how employees and employers relate to each other. Private regulation isn't antithetical to a market based society, its actually necessary to make any market function. I mean maybe the specific regulations in Quebec are unnecessarily onerous or restrictive, but the idea that they are bad just because they are regulations placed upon a private business is silly. We massively regulate private commerce and that is a good thing. I really don't want to live in a society where the only insurance I have that my food and drink are safe to consume is the danger that poisoned food will lead the corporation to lose customers (we tried this system in the 19th century and the practical result was that food for poor people was filled with adulterants).
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Jun 4, 2013 19:09
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I think everyone just has an anecdote from a friend who's brother lived in quebec an the LANGUAGE POLICE told him he had to re-name his cafe because it didn't sound french enough and he couldn't afford a new sign and went out of business BILINGUALISM RUN AMOK!
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Jun 4, 2013 19:11
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Team THEOLOGY posted:I'm not sure if when you write stuff like this you are being intentionally daft or it just comes off that way. You do, at least, as I noted understand where I'm coming from but choose to be ignorant right? That is OK, remember me and punitive crime. But if what you assert is what you have logically concluded you are misinformed at best and foolish at worst. If there's an arbitrary level of demand for coffee and food in a particular town and tim hortons doesn't have a store there to meet the demand then someone else can always open a coffee shop and "create jobs". While they're at it, maybe they can use signage and decor that integrates with the surrounding environment in a way that isn't totally jarring and pays some regard to aesthetics and local culture Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 19:20
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Helsing posted:We already forced companies to list the ingredients that they use in food and to adhere to certain standards when advertising their products. We have very specific rules for how you run your business, we regulate how food is prepared and we have exacting specifications for how employees and employers relate to each other. Right you'll notice from early I said I was pro regulation for things like safety (ingredient listing falls under this and the like) but random adherence to language is wrong when it is shovelled onto companies. As I said I am pro regulation in many respects but the above argued language requirements are absurdly ridiculous. THC posted:Cities and provinces and countries can and should mandate whatever limitations or requirements on business they consider desirable, because they exist to balance various competing priorities which can include anything from aesthetics and culture to worker rights and consumer safety. They should not discard those priorities to accomodate the bottom line of multibillion dollar corporations which, if left to their own devices, would pay no regard to these things whatsoever. If Tim Hortons is not part of Quebec culture and people don't want to support it they don't have to. But you shouldn't have to force language regulation on them to do that. If the rest of Quebec, feel the same as you do then don't regulate the language and nitpick ridiculous things and of course they will go under in QC and they will move out. Maybe if we didn't jam language down their throat and they still did well it would mean QC culture is changing, since culture is sort of a living tree anyway. Or do you mean a specific view of culture that you identify as QC culture. Anyway lets end /languagelawnchat I know not everyone agrees on this and there isn't a point in debating principled arguments. Sorry for stirring it up. Team THEOLOGY fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 19:25
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WhelpTwo Tory MPs could be suspended from House over missing election filings posted:Two Conservative MPs are in legal limbo after Elections Canada sent letters to the Speaker of the House of Commons asking they be suspended for failure to file campaign documents from the 2011 election. So, anyone shocked here? ...
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Jun 4, 2013 19:27
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Team THEOLOGY posted:Let TH or Harvey's do what they want without mandating it first. If its that bad for them to write it the way they do everywhere else then they won't be visited by a large majority of the population and they will fail. To force it creates a flaw in what is a generally market based system. So you believe the 'free market' should decide? Note that the unspoken part of what you've written is that if they don't fail, then everything they're doing must be right, because the only way to measure normative value is by financial success. quote:To force the government to do it and any public service, sure (even though sometimes that's not the case.) to force a private business to do it simply makes no sense in a market based economy. That's my point. I thought I had basically made it, apparently not. That may be your point, but it's not a very good one. Besides what I noted above, companies don't have a rich history of doing what's best for everyone when left to their own devices. quote:I don't ask SAQ to hang its logo in English too, but there are English speakers in QC, conversely the same can be said of Alberta not forcing companies to do everything in French. English speakers in Quebec do not have nearly the same historical presence of oppression that French speakers do. Some aspects of culture are important enough to need protection from those who would encroach on them. E: I would also like to add that personally I believe a business' rights should always be secondary to a peoples' rights, and not merely subject to the dubious judgement of the public's wallets. JawKnee fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 19:28
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Lexicon posted:This is how Vancouver works, at least on the SkyTrain. Or at least, how the SkyTrain used to work - they are putting in fare gates despite the increased revenue projections nowhere near covering the cost of capital for the project Since finding out that with the Compass system you'll now have to tap in and then tap OUT when you get off the bus/train it made me wonder if the ultimate goal for that system isn't to get rid of cheaters but to be able to get rid of the zone system and charge people by the distance travelled (number of stops/stations). Seems like it would be a potential way for them to increase fares in smaller increments that people might notice less?
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Jun 4, 2013 19:30
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All I know about the french problem in canada is that I will never be able to work for the government here.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:31
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I've actually lost count of all the election rule bending/breaking that went on Election Canadas needs to be given a lot more teeth
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Jun 4, 2013 19:31
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When Mcdonald's opens a restaurant in Paris, for example, they do not install the same 50' tall illuminated sign atop a pole they might use on the side of a California interstate - because they are not allowed, because it would look like poo poo. Somehow McDonald's survives this shocking government interference in the infallible workings of the free market, and the fast food workers of Paris get to keep their jobs too
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Jun 4, 2013 19:33
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Oh, if only we could come back to the market freedom of 1950's Montreal.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:33
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Alctel posted:I've actually lost count of all the election rule bending/breaking that went on Sometimes I feel like it needs it own separate thread. Not just robocalls but Penashue, these two, the rest of the chucklefucks....
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Jun 4, 2013 19:40
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Team THEOLOGY posted:Right you'll notice from early I said I was pro regulation for things like safety (ingredient listing falls under this and the like) but random adherence to language is wrong when it is shovelled onto companies. Quebec's laws aren't random though, they are pursuing a very specific agenda. I agree some of the stuff on signage is rather onerous but I don't see why it is somehow different from other forms of regulation. For instance we don't allow businesses to use hardcore pornographic images in public places to sell their wares. Our government regulates a lot more than just health and safety. Personally I would love to see more restrictions on commercial speech. Every small town in Ontario has seemingly been colonized by generic chain stores that crowd out local businesses and make every community feel monotonously similar. I always like it when you visit a town like Bracebridge and they actually have local bylaws keeping the main street in town free from Wal Mart and McDonalds. I think fundamentally this comes down to how you view the success or failure of corporations. I find that most conservatives think that if a business is successful (or rather, if a business hasn't failed yet) then we should assume that its customer's are endorsing everything the business does and it would be presumptuous of us to try and change that business. I really don't share that opinion: I think businesses often succeed even in cases where they aren't particular popular or well liked. So maybe as you said this just comes down to principles. When I see Quebec regulating the signage of private businesses I think some of the specific regulations are a little silly, but on the whole I am envious. I'd love it if Toronto was more like certain European cities (such as the previously mentioned Paris) where we don't like corporate logos and billboards completely dominate every public space.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:41
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Dammit JT, why did you ask why Harper appointed Wallin instead of Patrick Brazeau?
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Jun 4, 2013 19:43
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Again, Helsing/THC I see what you're both saying though THC again I think your example is disingenuous on purpose. Anyway you've made your point gentlemen and I definitely disagree but I get your position. This has been another episode of "lets argue about Quebec". Where the only thing guaranteed to come out of it is spite. If only there was somewhere else in Canada where we could bicker like this over at least it wouldn't be directed solely at QC all the time. Team THEOLOGY fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 19:44
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I'd love an all out ban on most forms of advertisement and marketing, in french AND english!!
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Jun 4, 2013 19:46
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bunnyofdoom posted:Dammit JT, why did you ask why Harper appointed Wallin instead of Patrick Brazeau? He got smugbombed pretty bad there. 
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Jun 4, 2013 19:46
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bunnyofdoom posted:Sometimes I feel like it needs it own separate thread. Not just robocalls but Penashue, these two, the rest of the chucklefucks.... Don't forget the in-and-out scandal. Its hard not to assume at this point that one of the main reasons that the Conservatives were so gung ho about campaign finance reform (which Harper viscerally opposed when he headed the National Citizens Coalition) was because they never had any intention of following it. Can anyone think of any equivalent examples of NDP or Liberal MPs so consistently breaking the rules? We have multiple candidates from the last election massively exceeding their limits and accepting direct donations from corporations, we have a court finding that somebody with access to the Conservative database was systematically redirecting voters in swing ridings, we know from a previous election cycle that at one point the central Conservative party was helping to launder money with local ridings so that it could be funnelled back to the central party and spent on a national campaign. And all of this is without going into the extensive use of taxpayer money to run puff pieces on a job creation program that hasn't even gone into effect yet. Many of these examples would be problematic on their own but add them up together and really are breathtaking.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:46
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Lexicon posted:This is how Vancouver works, at least on the SkyTrain. Or at least, how the SkyTrain used to work - they are putting in fare gates despite the increased revenue projections nowhere near covering the cost of capital for the project It's going to be an apocalyptic boondoggle. A friend of mine is a transit cop, he says that maaaaaybe one in a hundred people are fare evaders in his experience. So, a 1% increase in fare revenue at an over $100 million cost. 
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Jun 4, 2013 19:49
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priznat posted:He got smugbombed pretty bad there. At least he did quip back about how Wallin wasn't fundraising for the Liberals while she was consul general.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:49
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Fine-able Offense posted:It's going to be an apocalyptic boondoggle. A friend of mine is a transit cop, he says that maaaaaybe one in a hundred people are fare evaders in his experience. So, a 1% increase in fare revenue at an over $100 million cost. Really the only place they need fare gates is on the B-lines that let everyone in the back door.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:57
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JawKnee posted:Really the only place they need fare gates is on the B-lines that let everyone in the back door. The passenger demographics of the B-line are, like, 50% fare evaders. You can always tell because there's a giant mob of people waiting for it while the normal 9 is half-empty. Also, little Filipino ladies are the worst B-line line-cutters in existence. 
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Jun 4, 2013 19:58
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THC posted:When Mcdonald's opens a restaurant in Paris, for example, they do not install the same 50' tall illuminated sign atop a pole they might use on the side of a California interstate - because they are not allowed, because it would look like poo poo. Somehow McDonald's survives this shocking government interference in the infallible workings of the free market, and the fast food workers of Paris get to keep their jobs too In Salzburg they were only allowed to have a sign hanging off the building if it was made in the same style as the other ones.  In Niagara-on-the-Lake, they had to design a building that had to correspond to the style of the town.
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Jun 4, 2013 20:00
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Fine-able Offense posted:The passenger demographics of the B-line are, like, 50% fare evaders. You can always tell because there's a giant mob of people waiting for it while the normal 9 is half-empty. Is this true though? The 9 is slow as poo poo, now that I no longer have a U-pass I still get on the back of the 99 because I've got my fare already from SkyTrain, daily/monthly, etc. I have taken the 9 once or twice, and my jaw drops at the guy who waits 10 minutes for the bus just to go one block.
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Jun 4, 2013 20:04
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We can probably take specific Vancouver bus-chat to the Vancouver thread
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Jun 4, 2013 20:08
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Come on folks, I'm noticing a disturbing lack of Fordchat. Did you know, for instance, that our mayor is fat?
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Jun 4, 2013 20:09
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JawKnee posted:We can probably take specific Vancouver bus-chat to the Vancouver thread Western exclusion strikes again...
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