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zenintrude posted:Any doubt you may have in your mind comes after Joel decides that they aren't going to operate on his baby girl and starts murdering people en masse. Face it... Joel is a selfish character who needs Ellie to survive for his own personal reasons. That's true but the narrative of the game is put together in a way that's supposed to make you, the player, feel the same way about saving Ellie. Even if the final decision you make is selfish, it's a story about love and redemption first and foremost. Besides, I have a feeling this ending is probably the best in order to set up a sequel
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Jun 18, 2013 18:46
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CousinKevin posted:I'm in winter right now, is the game suppose to be locking up and crashing my PS3 all the time? Is this suppose to add to the tension, you never know when you're going to have to restart your console? I have a brand new PS3 here and I had at least one lock up there. I think we all just have to accept that this game is more powerful than the decade old PS3. But yeah you're PS3 might be on it's deathbed if it's getting a ton of lock ups. I probably had 3 the whole game, and a few when transitioning out of the MP menu's.
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Jun 18, 2013 18:46
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CousinKevin posted:I'm in winter right now, is the game suppose to be locking up and crashing my PS3 all the time? Is this suppose to add to the tension, you never know when you're going to have to restart your console? I haven't seen people mentioning it too much, but I found the game to be bordering on Bethesda-level buggy at points: textures popping in, characters animating strangely, framerates dropping dramatically, etc. No flat out lockups, though. I think Naughty Dog pushed the PS4 to the limit, and beyond. vvv I had Joel go all arm flaily on my after jumping through a window, a human enemy hump the floor as I walked up to him and casually popped him in the head, and - my favorite - every single model and texture except for an enemy, Sam and the ground disappear from the scene when I was sniping. testtubebaby fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jun 18, 2013 |
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Jun 18, 2013 18:48
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I wouldn't go that far, but it's true that I don't know anyone who didn't have at least one strange bug pop up from time to time, and I did have the system totally freeze on me at one point.
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Jun 18, 2013 18:48
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This ending is pretty much "Math you tell yourself as a parent/human/Samaritan to make yourself feel better."
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Jun 18, 2013 18:50
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zenintrude posted:Any doubt you may have in your mind comes after Joel decides that they aren't going to operate on his baby girl and starts murdering people en masse. Face it... Joel is a selfish character who needs Ellie to survive for his own personal reasons. Joel is selfish, and has done really horrible things in the past. I remember the whole "How many innocent people have you killed" conversation. Whatever motivation he has for rescuing Ellie at the end, he made the right decision that I'd seriously hope every father would make. Obviously most wouldn't have the horrible skills that Joel has to actually do anything about it though.
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Jun 18, 2013 18:51
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LibbyM posted:Joel is selfish, and has done really horrible things in the past. I remember the whole "How many innocent people have you killed" conversation. Whatever motivation he has for rescuing Ellie at the end, he made the right decision that I'd seriously hope every father would make. Obviously most wouldn't have the horrible skills that Joel has to actually do anything about it though. It's a terrible decision to have to make either way, but the choice is thus: 1. Save your child or 2. Let your child grow up in a living nightmare under the veil of an unforgivable lie
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Jun 18, 2013 18:55
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If anyone's on an is up to shoot some people, hit me up! PSN: Itsatrapzorz I always talk and tell what I see!
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Jun 18, 2013 19:00
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ImpAtom posted:Yes it is. The game is pretty drat specific that this is about the twilight of humanity. It is literally called "The Last of Us." The ending (and the story as a whole) is deliberately ambiguous and does not provide the information required to reach certain conclusions. You extrapolate quite a bit and at the same time disparage people who do the same but come to different conclusions. The title itself is ambiguous and there is no need to read it to mean that the last humans remaining now will be the last to ever exist. The game clearly shows that humanity and human settlements are very vulnerable to infection, but how does that prove that no non-draconian human settlement can exist? Tommy's town could just as well be considered the counterexample that proves you wrong. A different point, which has already been discussed, is the assumption that the fireflies are likely to actually develop a cure. Now, I don't expect realism from a video game about zombies, but considering the way medical progress happens in real life, it seems like an extremely unlikely proposition that it would actually be possible to develop a vaccine for a fungal infection using just infected tissue from a single person with a genetic immunity. This is further compounded by the extreme lack of resources, equipment, skilled researchers, etc. To me it seems that the fireflies were delusional extremists, understandably but mistakenly hanging on to a hope of a vaccine. We do not know much about how the infection operates or how it was possible for the whole world to be infected at once. We do know that the infected have a limited lifetime and that they act to kill rather than to infect, and the spores do not seem to spread far. We see many infected that did not die violently, but completed their life-cycle within the span of time between the outbreak and current events. The number of infected in the world will decrease drastically as the infected die, and there will be no enormous and unprepared human population for the spores left to infect. It is not at all unthinkable that humanity could outlive the infection, so long as it is not actively tearing itself apart. Furthermore, the story plays on the conflict between different moral systems. Even if we were to accept that Ellie's death would have a chance of leading to a cure, you seem to be analyzing the story from a purely utilitarian perspective, but again there is no specific need why it must only be viewed that way.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:02
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zenintrude posted:an unforgivable lie I think it's pretty forgivable since the fireflies would probably have killed her and gotten nothing out of it like with their other research opportunities. It's a lie to try and let Ellie live her life without the guilt of thinking she could have done something about the horrible state of the world, when she probably couldn't have anyway.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:04
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Here's the last four artifacts, if anyone has beaten it and wants to see/hear them again. Should help clear up some confusion about the ending. http://youtu.be/XfJGe_TXzOk?t=53s http://youtu.be/XfJGe_TXzOk?t=3m24s http://youtu.be/XfJGe_TXzOk?t=5m56s Well, he skipped the last one. I'll find it in a bit. edit Oh and Forbes' video game blog did a writeup on the ending. (he did a similar piece on Infinite's ending) http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2013/06/17/coming-to-terms-with-the-difficult-ending-of-the-last-of-us/ Sir Tonk fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jun 18, 2013 |
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Jun 18, 2013 19:06
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Lars Krimi posted:We do know that the infected have a limited lifetime and that they act to kill rather than to infect, and the spores do not seem to spread far. This is one of my biggest problems because, as I stated previous, the story takes place 20 years removed from the initial outbreak and there are still infected loving everywhere, even in places where people would likely rarely go in such high numbers.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:11
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Do infected age? I'm sure I missed a lot of audio logs and stuff like that along the way. I kind of just thought "zombies" and stopped thinking about it.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:12
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LibbyM posted:Do infected age? I'm sure I missed a lot of audio logs and stuff like that along the way. I kind of just thought "zombies" and stopped thinking about it. There's no mention, other than when you run into the first bloater, and that's just talking about how the infection evolves. The rare occurrence of them would imply that they don't live all that long, if I was going to make assumptions, and there are so many because they're still killing people as well as the spores catching people off guard. Alot of the ones you run into seem to still be in the confused state after turning, as they say the clicker is what happens after they've been infected for a while. That would imply that all the runners you encounter are somewhat recent infections (based on a timeframe where we get no specifics numbers)
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Jun 18, 2013 19:15
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LibbyM posted:Do infected age? I'm sure I missed a lot of audio logs and stuff like that along the way. I kind of just thought "zombies" and stopped thinking about it. I don't think it's explicitly stated at all in the story.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:15
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LibbyM posted:Do infected age? I'm sure I missed a lot of audio logs and stuff like that along the way. I kind of just thought "zombies" and stopped thinking about it. I don't see why they wouldn't. The human body is still alive and functioning - it needs to be to function as a host for the Cordyceps, just like arthropods in the case of real-life Cordyceps.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:16
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LibbyM posted:Do infected age? I'm sure I missed a lot of audio logs and stuff like that along the way. I kind of just thought "zombies" and stopped thinking about it. That's one of the benefits of leaving things super ambiguous, I guess... we know that the infection is spore-based and that there's some kind of parasitic-relationship between the human host and the spore. But there are more questions... Are the infected somehow able to feed off of the decay in the environment, similar to molds and fungi? If so, why do they go out of their way at times to attack non-infected humans and what do they get out of it? If not, how are they not dying off en masse when there are no humans around? How has this gone on for 20 years?
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Jun 18, 2013 19:18
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LibbyM posted:Do infected age? I'm sure I missed a lot of audio logs and stuff like that along the way. I kind of just thought "zombies" and stopped thinking about it. Yes they do. Runners turn to stalkers, and stalkers turn to clickers. They can sometimes turn to bloaters, but the final stage is finding some place to die where they spread fungi. This is also stated by the developers in behind the scenes materials. Remember the scene in the beginning where Joel peels a dead clicker off a door? It is clearly not dangerous to him, and there are several places like this where infected have ended their life in what seems to be a natural way.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:20
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zenintrude posted:That's one of the benefits of leaving things super ambiguous, I guess... we know that the infection is spore-based and that there's some kind of parasitic-relationship between the human host and the spore. They attack humans because the fungal spores destroy the part of the brain responsible for regulating aggression, this point at least isn't left ambiguous as its stated directly in the firefly logs.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:21
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What i took from the story was the runners are early infections, clickers a further mutation and then the bloaters are maybe the last stage. Could be wrong but i also love the fact Naughty Dog left so many questions unanswered in the game. It feels good to be treated like adults regarding a story.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:22
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I also enjoy the fact that the ending is sort of morally ambiguous, if Joel's transformation were too complete he wouldn't be a super believable character after all.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:23
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I've just gained control of Joel again after the cannibals caught Ellie. How much more of the game is left? I don't want to accidentally beat it.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:26
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Fonzarelli posted:I've just gained control of Joel again after the cannibals caught Ellie. How much more of the game is left? I don't want to accidentally beat it. You're almost done.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:26
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SheepNameKiller posted:I also enjoy the fact that the ending is sort of morally ambiguous, if Joel's transformation were too complete he wouldn't be a super believable character after all. Definitely. The man before the infection hit was still there. I loved the little rub of his watch when he told Ellie you had to keep finding things to fight for.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:26
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So in the story, do they ever just throw enemies at you randomly, or are they always in the sort of 'stealth/fight arena'? And I guess when your partner just stands up and starts nonchalantly walking around means its all clear? Sorry for asking stupid questions, I've been addicted to the multiplayer. I'm finally getting to the story! D0ct0rAlanGrant fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jun 18, 2013 |
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Jun 18, 2013 19:27
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G-Whizard posted:I have a brand new PS3 here and I had at least one lock up there. I think we all just have to accept that this game is more powerful than the decade old PS3. But yeah you're PS3 might be on it's deathbed if it's getting a ton of lock ups. I probably had 3 the whole game, and a few when transitioning out of the MP menu's. bugs I saw in my run, 2009 slim ps3: -no lockups ever (but I ventilate my ps3 and vacuum the air vents every now and then) -white textures in a couple of areas, but saw only about 4 occurrences in the entire game -on reload, am surrounded by enemies and killed. on second reload, everyone is where they were supposed to be (happened once, in the final area) -no loving prompt for the part close to the end where you have to jump around in the rushing-water-tunnel before you get captured by fireflies. I just pressed X and it seemed to work. All in all the only 'unacceptable' bug was the white textures. I wonder how that one got through QA. At least in this generation, games can be patched! About the boss fight in winter: I died twice (once doing melee and once when he turned around at the last minute) but after that it wasn't too hard. He didn't predict my movements or anything scary like that.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:29
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SheepNameKiller posted:I also enjoy the fact that the ending is sort of morally ambiguous, if Joel's transformation were too complete he wouldn't be a super believable character after all. Last night I had this big long thing written up about games and movies and how some stories are inappropriate for one or the other... and I think this right here hits at the core of that argument and why the story and characters, specifically Joel, would work better in a film than in a game simply because - as a player - I would not have made the choice Joel made at the end of the game and it feels perverse to see a character I controlled being forced by the game to make that decision. In a movie, you accept that characters make their choices because you have no investment in the outcome, but in games you're at least tempted with the illusion that you are. Clearly this is a bigger discussion than The Last of Us but I do think that it explains why someone would see the game as well made but still not feel satisfied with the experience as a whole.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:30
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D0ct0rAlanGrant posted:So in the story, do they ever just throw enemies at you randomly, or are they always in the sort of 'stealth/fight arena'? All of the encounters seem scripted, although more enemies seem to spawn once you alert the ones in areas where you can sneak by.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:31
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zenintrude posted:Last night I had this big long thing written up about games and movies and how some stories are inappropriate for one or the other... and I think this right here hits at the core of that argument and why the story and characters, specifically Joel, would work better in a film than in a game simply because - as a player - I would not have made the choice Joel made at the end of the game and it feels perverse to see a character I controlled being forced by the game to make that decision. In a movie, you accept that characters make their choices because you have no investment in the outcome, but in games you're at least tempted with the illusion that you are. I don't think the point of games has to necessarily be about choice. I think it's totally valid for a game to create a character with his own set of motivations, values, and decisions, and then allow the player to become more immersed in his mindset for the duration of a story through interactivity. It's just a different form of storytelling. Games can do all sorts of things, and I'm glad the creators of The Last of Us stuck to their guns and didn't give us a multiple ending scenario at the end. Also, the ending is just asking the same moral dilemma that's been posited a thousand times before: "Is it better to kill one innocent child to save a million lives?" of some variation of that. Many people would argue "no", which also happens to be this game's stance. It's not exactly groundbreaking stuff.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:37
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I thought the ending was about the idea of valuing a relationship with one person more than rebuilding human society. Joel doesn't care at all about the restoration of human society if the person he cares about can not be there. I think Joel has probably gone through the same sort of survivors guilt that Ellie is going through, but in his case he has come out the other side with purpose and determination to do anything to survive. He lies to her for his own selfish reasons, but also because he does not want her to throw her life away just based on her current feelings. Remember, Ellie is a rash and impulsive character is still is pretty young. Joel is a lot older and probably feels he knows better. Not justifying his actions, but just speculating on some of the reasons why he lied, other than him being a complete selfish monster. I think it was wrong to lie to Ellie, but when you think about it Joel and the fireflies are both denying any sort of agency to Ellie. They are both in the wrong, and should have gave Ellie the choice. I was thinking an interesting alternate way to have ended the story would have been to have Joel tell Ellie the truth, and have her start to leave, but then have Joel give one last impassioned plea on why she shouldn't give up on living, and how much she means to him. Then have ellie stop turn back to Joel... and then fade to black. Would have left the question of what choice she made, and what was the right thing still up in the air for people to discuss, but at the same time would not have cast such a dark tone over the whole joel/ellie relationship that the current ending gives.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:37
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zenintrude posted:Last night I had this big long thing written up about games and movies and how some stories are inappropriate for one or the other... and I think this right here hits at the core of that argument and why the story and characters, specifically Joel, would work better in a film than in a game simply because - as a player - I would not have made the choice Joel made at the end of the game and it feels perverse to see a character I controlled being forced by the game to make that decision. In a movie, you accept that characters make their choices because you have no investment in the outcome, but in games you're at least tempted with the illusion that you are. If this was a game like Mass Effect where decision making is left up to the player the entire game, then I think this would be a valid complaint about Joel's choice in the end but in The Last of Us you are never given the illusion of being the decision maker, the agency is with the characters. You as the player are just along for the ride.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:40
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zenintrude posted:Last night I had this big long thing written up about games and movies and how some stories are inappropriate for one or the other... and I think this right here hits at the core of that argument and why the story and characters, specifically Joel, would work better in a film than in a game simply because - as a player - I would not have made the choice Joel made at the end of the game and it feels perverse to see a character I controlled being forced by the game to make that decision. In a movie, you accept that characters make their choices because you have no investment in the outcome, but in games you're at least tempted with the illusion that you are. I can see where you're coming from here, I actually like playing characters that have a set story and their own motivations though. It always feels like the story in the end is more compelling and cohesive than the usual multiple-path, branching story, three or four ending affairs that it seems have become mandatory for video games these days. I will say though that even though Joel's choice was selfish I don't think he made the wrong one, so our overall moral take on the situation is probably also different enough that it offended me less. SheepNameKiller fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jun 18, 2013 |
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Jun 18, 2013 19:46
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:I thought the ending was about the idea of valuing a relationship with one person more than rebuilding human society. Joel doesn't care at all about the restoration of human society if the person he cares about can not be there. It's also important to remember that by the time you get to Utah, Ellie isn't particularly enthusiastic about the whole thing. The only reason she wants to continue on to the HQ instead of heading back to Tommy's town is out of a sense of obligation to the people she's seen die. She basically wants to go there, let the Fireflies do whatever, and then leave. Any choice Ellie made would be colored by that massive sense of obligation, and that's a horrendous, unfair burden to put on a 14 year old. Joel is not ignorant of this. It's why he takes the burden of a potential "No" from Ellie. He knows what he's potentially done, but at the same time it allows Ellie to live without being crippled by the guilt she would feel if she decided she didn't want to die. And as I've said before, there's only one party in that building that would have honored whatever choice Ellie made, and that's Joel. Joel himself is one of only two people there that actually recognize Ellie as a person instead of a means to end. And the fact that he knows he would let Ellie die for that research if she wanted to horrifies him, leading him to remove the choice from play altogether. It's easy to demonize Joel for what he did, but it shouldn't be forgotten that he's the only person in the end who would have cared about and respected Ellie's wishes if she were actually presented a choice, and that puts him ahead of the Fireflies in my opinion.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:58
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I will say - because arguing against myself which is often fun - that even in the event that Ellie could have been used to synthesize a cure that it would not have been the magic bullet needed to instantly fix the (possibly irrevocably) broken human race. I would have liked that addressed by the characters because it would have given a little more weight to choice that Joel ultimately made.
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Jun 18, 2013 20:00
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zenintrude posted:I will say - because arguing against myself which is often fun - that even in the event that Ellie could have been used to synthesize a cure that it would not have been the magic bullet to instantly fix the (possibly irrevocably) broken human race at this point. I would have liked that addressed by the characters because it would have given a little more weight to choice that Joel ultimately made. I said this before but Tess and Sam would have lived with a vaccine, Ellie tells the story of her childhood friend who would have lived with a vaccine and asks Joel to not let their journey be in vain. I think Ellie's stance is pretty clear, as is Tess' who basically forces Joel on this trip once she learns Ellie is immune. Joel doesn't give a gently caress about humans other than Ellie, his perception of humans is informed by that moment the soldier killed Sarah. Now that I think about it the one travel companion that survives (Bill) is not fleeing from the infected, he's fleeing from humans.
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Jun 18, 2013 20:07
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Something to keep in mind with the ending is that Ellie really had no agency in the decision one way or the other. Neither side was interested in hearing her opinion on the matter, but at least Joel had her best interest in mind. It's been clear that the fireflies don't know what the gently caress and are in a lot of ways just more bandits in different colors. The doctors didn't really know what was going on with Ellie other than her infection had mutated and wasn't taking over her her body like the regular cordyceps does, and there's no guarantee that they could even synthesize a vaccine from her that would work, let alone all the other logistical stuff that goons have argued about in this very thread. At least with her alive then there is the chance of hereditary immunity being passed down from her. Another though I've had about the ending: The reason Ellie is immune is because the cordyceps in her is a mutant strain. Wouldn't it reason then that anyone whom she would bite or otherwise infect then catch her stain of cordyceps and then be immune to the bad kind?
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Jun 18, 2013 20:26
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DeathSandwich posted:Another though I've had about the ending: The reason Ellie is immune is because the cordyceps in her is a mutant strain. Wouldn't it reason then that anyone whom she would bite or otherwise infect then catch her stain of cordyceps and then be immune to the bad kind? On the subject of Ellie biting people, I'm kind of disappointed we never find out if David would actually have turned or not. I think that whole boss fight against him is probably supposed to go down like 10 minutes after Ellie bites him, which is probably too soon for anything to be happening. It'd be nice to know if he had a spreading infection or not.
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Jun 18, 2013 20:30
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About the ending Joel was pretty emotionally unstable towards the end when he wakes up in the Firefly base having thought that Ellie drowned and then getting his face bashed in. THEN Marlene tells him he's not allowed to see Ellie, that they need to cut her open and tells Ethan to escort him out without his gear or anything and to shoot him if he tries anything. To top off that poo poo sundae, Ethan is a total dick to him about escorting him out. At that point I don't blame Joel for snapping and shooting Ethan in the nuts a couple times before executing him and then going on his apeshit rampage to save Ellie. I agree with his decision, after all the poo poo I saw on the way there, what's left of humanity isn't worth the cost of Ellie.
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Jun 18, 2013 20:39
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Tamayachi posted:About the ending Joel was pretty emotionally unstable towards the end when he wakes up in the Firefly base having thought that Ellie drowned and then getting his face bashed in. THEN Marlene tells him he's not allowed to see Ellie, that they need to cut her open and tells Ethan to escort him out without his gear or anything and to shoot him if he tries anything. To top off that poo poo sundae, Ethan is a total dick to him about escorting him out. At that point I don't blame Joel for snapping and shooting Ethan in the nuts a couple times before executing him and then going on his apeshit rampage to save Ellie. I agree with his decision, after all the poo poo I saw on the way there, what's left of humanity isn't worth the cost of Ellie. Yeah the fireflies were absolutely unsympathetic pricks when all was said and done
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Jun 18, 2013 20:41
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LibbyM posted:On the subject of Ellie biting people, I'm kind of disappointed we never find out if David would actually have turned or not. I think that whole boss fight against him is probably supposed to go down like 10 minutes after Ellie bites him, which is probably too soon for anything to be happening. It'd be nice to know if he had a spreading infection or not. I would have assumed that the spore bombs the bloater throws in the previous boss battle would have infected him if nothing else. Maybe he's immune too? (I'm joking)
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Jun 18, 2013 20:42
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