|
I'm sure I'm late to the party on seeing this film, but I finally saw it and thoroughly enjoyed it. I can see how people would be angry about the amount of collateral damage and casualties, but I didn't really see opportunities for Superman to avoid those in the film. It's hard to ask the guy who just swore death on the human race to take the fight someplace more quiet, and until that point he was pretty occupied. I loved the last line of the film too, and I'm angry that I had never thought of it. I'll remain cautiously optimistic of World's Finest: the movie. I went in to Man of Steel very hyped up, and was not disappointed.
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 08:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 13:38 |
|
|
teagone posted:The content of the film has yet to be properly discussed. For all we know, this could be a direct sequel to Man of Steel that just so happens to have Batman be part of the narrative. Seems like it's going to be more of a World's Finest movie, if the reveal was any indication. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 08:50
|
|
|
achillesforever6 posted:Honestly I would have preferred it like the Superman TAS episode "World's Finest" where Bruce acts like a dick to Clark, trying to date Lois, and then both figuring out who each out (still one of my favorite DCAU moments https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5nUsa8ZLm4)Then they fight the Joker and Lex which leads to a somewhat friendship. For this movie they could just use Lex.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 08:51
|
|
|
Wouldn't that be some poo poo if Christian Bale returned as Batman in this superman/batman film?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 08:55
|
|
|
Bale and Nolan have said that those films are their own world and are done.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 09:08
|
|
|
Toady posted:Seems like it's going to be more of a World's Finest movie, if the reveal was any indication. Yeah, I mean't that in the the follow up is based off a World's Finest arc (inspired by The Dark Knight Returns) that continues where Man of Steel left off.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 09:13
|
|
|
Toady posted:Bale and Nolan have said that those films are their own world and are done. And they're right to say it. Anything else they could do would probably be respected less, and it's not like either is hurting for other projects they might want to do. Let more Batman be someone else's problem.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 09:57
|
|
|
I think that post-Nolan Batman, especially so soon after the Nolan trilogy, should ignore the origin entirely and even ignore the behind-the-scenes of Batman; he could just be portrayed as the terrifying night-demon that everyone out of the know perceives him as. Obviously Superman could see right through his mask, literally, so it might be interesting if they become comrades because of that. I'd really like to see them in the same film but it's hard to imagine it; fist-fights between them are completely uninteresting unless Batmans in a Dark Knight Returns battlesuit (which might happen since Snyder said this is based on DKR). They could do the split up and each handle a different threat thing, Batman could outsmart Superman (which seems possible in the MoS universe; Clark doesn't really exhibit any of the genius that comic Superman does sometimes), etc. It's just going to be hard to portray them on equal footing because Batman's training/technology/deception doesnt mean anything to Superman or Superman's villains, unless they seriously dial back the power level of Zod for the next movie's villain, which would then be boring for Superman. I'd just love to see a Batman movie without Bruce Wayne, where Batman could be portrayed as almost having superpowers; just a disappearing fear spirit rather than a man in a stiff suit. Justice League sounds really bad to me. Avengers succeeded because it embraced the inherent sillyness of having multiple god-level heroes crashing around. MoS wasn't silly. edit: I just thought of maybe Batman developing the power armor in response to learning that there's a literal demigod living on earth, and the Luthor getting a hold of that and they have to team up to stop him, but that doesn't really give credit to both Bruce for not building in a fail-safe and Luthor for not just inventing it on his own. It would be really interesting to see two human geniuses in the mix against a superhuman nongenius, though. Having MoS superman being demonstrably stupider than Bruce and Lex could work. Terrible Horse fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Jul 21, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 10:08
|
|
|
I hope the new Batman doesn't have a ridiculous voice
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 11:16
|
|
|
gently caress This Puzzle posted:The overly long fight I was bitching about has nothing to do with his mother and he seems to have no concern for the people who ran into the buildings along the strip just moments before. The other issue is even if you can say "he was fighting to protect the people in the building" it's that he doesn't show much concern for collateral damage anywhere else in the film. My complaints not only deal with the fact that there is only a very surface motivation but that the editing is terrible and it goes on for entirely too long. The fight also does very little to advance the plot and appears to me to be "we need an action beat here". They literally told him they would kill millions more if he resisted. To entirely devote his following actions to immediately defeating them is something someone would do if the thing they care most about is protecting people.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 11:51
|
|
|
Martman posted:If you watch a video of a firefighter do you think he'll grimace dramatically every time something bad happens? Acting to remove threats to other people IS heroic, looking sad and saying "gosh, I really wish people weren't dying" would be cartoonish. It's kinda funny how many people are defending the faults of the movies in ways that contradict one another. He can't both be brand new to this thing and also act like a professional life saver like a firefighter who has seen this time and time again. That's the whole issue with tone that I discussed earlier. Also he doesn't remove the threat and it's pretty obvious very quickly that he isn't doing damage to them. It's an entirely pointless fight. Ferrinus posted:He is, though. Sufficient damage to their armor incapacitates them because it turns on their unmanageable super-senses. That's actually what happened. Oh so they go back to the Phantom Zone? Plus that just reminds me of the stupid environment weakness stuff that I had tried to forget after watching the movie. Fuck This Puzzle fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Jul 21, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 15:33
|
|
|
He is, though. Sufficient damage to their armor incapacitates them because it turns on their unmanageable super-senses. That's actually what happened.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 15:45
|
|
|
achillesforever6 posted:Honestly I would have preferred it like the Superman TAS episode "World's Finest" where Bruce acts like a dick to Clark, trying to date Lois, and then both figuring out who each out (still one of my favorite DCAU moments https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5nUsa8ZLm4)Then they fight the Joker and Lex which leads to a somewhat friendship. For this movie they could just use Lex. In my opinion, I think this is the best "how they met" story between Batman and Superman. The look on the face of Superman after he gets judo tossed is incredible.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 16:48
|
|
|
The origin story of the current cinematic Superman is incomplete by its own standards (in that it never demonstrated him living up to the symbol of hope that he wears on his chest). It ended on an excellent trajectory toward a sequel that would have finished the job, though. I'm very skeptical that a team-up - with a new version of a character, at that - will be an effective means to continue that incomplete development. And it seems like a bad decision to go into it (and from there into Justice League) without finishing what was started. I guess it could work - show why an S stands for hope by contrasting it against a bat that stands for something else - but I'm expecting another DC fumble.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 18:54
|
|
|
It does feel weird to move straight from "origin story" to "crossover team-up" without anything in between. Like, I don't think Man of Steel worked ultimately, but I did think there was promise for a sequel because they've got the heavy exposition out of the way and can maybe look at the Clark/Superman dichotomy some more and the theme of him having these two lives, and maybe the people at the Daily Planet can do something besides look sternly at each other, etc.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 19:10
|
|
|
Yeah, I don't really... want...? ...Batman... in my next Superman movie...? I loved Man of Steel and want as long a delay as possible before it's welded onto some tedious Continuity or Universe or whatever. Who knows, maybe it'll be great. It's definitely time for Superman to be confronted by human beings who question the need for a superman. But it'd take a lot for me to not just roll my eyes at Man of Steel's terrifying posthuman protagonist getting judo thrown or something.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 20:14
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:Who knows, maybe it'll be great. It's definitely time for Superman to be confronted by human beings who question the need for a superman. But it'd take a lot for me to not just roll my eyes at Man of Steel's terrifying posthuman protagonist getting judo thrown or something. It would be wonderfully satisfying to see the alien usurper rightly thrown into defeat by the very men and women he longs to oppress. LeJackal fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jul 21, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 20:41
|
|
|
LeJackal posted:It would be wonderfully satisfying to see the alien usurper rightly thrown into defeat by the very mean and women he longs to oppress. Hey, if that's what gets your motor running, sure, but not by kung fu or something.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 20:49
|
|
|
Yawgmoft posted:I'm not sure how I feel about a World's Finest movie based off of DKR. I want them to be friends, maybe an early rivalry but then bffs, not some "Batman beats up Superman in their first team up movie" shlock. Batman saved a city, Superman destroyed a city. That could provide the balance and tension between the 2 characters  gently caress This Puzzle posted:
Then the second unit director and the CG production company do their motion capture and backgrounds and start piling up the escalation of violence to show off what they can do with their computers, and next thing you know there's a 12 minute 3D battle royale that does as much to advance the plot as one good knockout punch to the jaw.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 22:58
|
|
|
Is one city getting partially destroyed really a huge deal when Zod and co. were going to kill everyone on the planet?Vintimus Prime posted:In my opinion, I think this is the best "how they met" story between Batman and Superman. The look on the face of Superman after he gets judo tossed is incredible. My favourite is the in the one shot Darwyn Cooke did for The New Frontier. Basically the government wants Superman to take out Batman because they can't control him, so Batman sets up all these elaborate traps to test how strong Superman really is, and he rips through all of them easily, and just when it looks like Batman is going to get defeated he pulls out a piece of kryptonite he had Catwoman steal from Luthor. Now they're both nearly dead, Batman is trying to pull Superman into some chamber to turn him into an unlimited power source or some such cartoonish thing, when Wonder Woman shows up and tells them to stop acting like children.  They then decide they're all on the same side and stage a huge public fight in which Batman easily kicks Superman's rear end so the government will leave him alone. Alternately, while it's not a first meeting, the scene in Man of Steel (the comic about Lex Luthor) where Batman tries to test a small piece of kryptonite on Superman, and he still easily kicks Batman's rear end is pretty great. Binary Logic posted:Batman saved a city. While he did technically stop it from being wiped off the map, each movie had Batman causing more harm than good to the poor city of Gotham. I mean, at the end of DKR it's been cut off from the rest of the world for months, under military rule, all the bridges destroyed, most of the cops dead, and what's the first thing they do to repair the city? They build a statue of man dressed like a bat. wyoming fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jul 21, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 23:16
|
|
|
wyoming posted:Is one city getting partially destroyed really a huge deal when Zod and co. were going to kill everyone on the planet? A pack of wolves are about to devour you and your entire family. A hunter shows up and kills the wolves, but takes your youngest daughter away to slake his needs. Is one lost daughter that huge a deal when wolves were set to eat your entire family? LeJackal fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jul 21, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 23:21
|
|
|
LeJackal posted:A pack of wolves are about to devour you and your entire family. A hunter shows up and kills the wolves, but takes your youngest daughter away to slake his needs. Is one lost daughter that huge a deal when wolves were set to eat you? So, Superman is the hunter in this? He had nothing to do with the initial attack, just wandered in and wantonly destroyed places, because why not? Did you actually watch this movie? Also gently caress you for comparing a fictional city to my fictional daughter.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 23:24
|
|
|
wyoming posted:So, Superman is the hunter in this? He had nothing to do with the initial attack, just wandered in and wantonly destroyed places, because why not? Fair point. I suppose we would have to mention that said hunter smeared your entire family in blood and Wolf Attractant. Then, when the wolves arrived, goaded them into attack. wyoming posted:Also gently caress you for comparing a fictional city to my fictional daughter. That fictional city was full of fictional daughters, fictional mothers, fictional fathers sacrificed so that Kal-El could slake the endless thirst of his ego. Have you not read my other posts in this thread?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 23:32
|
|
|
LeJackal posted:Have you not read my other posts in this thread? Here's another possibility: Superman is getting messed with by some super-clever but 'normal' person. He thinks it's Batman, possibly because of some Bat-branding on things. He chases him down, perhaps has some kind of cat and mouse conflict, only--!! The real enemy was
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 23:37
|
|
|
Nah see, Superman is part of the family, but he's also a wolf. And his fight with the other wolves might destroy your home, and the wolves may kill some innocents. But at the end of the day, his loved ones and the majority of the village are safe from wolves forever, and now you've got a badass wolf son that's going to do his best to protect everyone. Point is, this analogy is dumb. Superman fought his hardest to save everyone, and in the end saved a shitload more than were killed. I mean you have to keep in mind the movies constant visual metaphor that the Kryptonians are forces of nature, you're complaining because some kid from Kansas couldn't stop a tidal wave, tornado, and earthquake all at once. And even then he defeated the baddies with the help of humans, the lower animals, he inspired hope in them, in what looked like a hopeless situation. Superman is hope, Superman is love, Superman is awesome.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 23:44
|
|
|
wyoming posted:Superman fought his hardest to save everyone...... After murdering Zod, veiled in the thinnest excuses of a fight that Kal-El himself instigated, what does the so-called 'Superman do? Does he race around the city, pulling survivors from the rubble? Put out the many fires he started? Save people from buildings at the verge of collapse? Stop a train before it flies from the now destroyed tracks? No. He instead pushes his tongue deep into the mouth of Lois Lane. His 'reward' far outweighs the many human lives he could have saved. In that moment Kal-El clearly demonstrates where his priorities lie, and it is not in 'fighting his hardest to save everyone.' wyoming posted:And even then he defeated the baddies with the help of humans, the lower animals, he inspired hope in them, in what looked like a hopeless situation. Superman is hope, Superman is love, Superman is awesome. Once more, this charming pastoral public image of Kal-El is insulting and serves only to elevate him undeserving. Look at the implicit underlying statements; humanity is base and low, unaware of its own potential, in need of inspiration, Kal-El is prima facie superior, and so on. Acceptance of this ideal only leads to self-debasement and complete denial of the inherent noble and awe-inspiring qualities inherent to humanity. In the very course of the film, for example, numerous members of the military selflessly give their lives to protect humanity, demonstrating a noble courage and selflessness Kal-El never shows. For millenia humanity has time and time again displayed ingenuity, courage, nobility, tenacity, unity, self-sacrifice, strength, honor, intelligence, self-reflection, and a thousand other qualities a thousand times over. Our heroes are men and women that have laid everything on the line for their people and their planet. What does Kal-El display and revel in? Self-serving violence. Smug racism and pretentious posturing. He never gives selflessly, he never sacrifices, everything must serve and revolve around him. You would debase yourself and all of humanity to elevate such a monster?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 23:51
|
|
|
LeJackal posted:After murdering Zod, veiled in the thinnest excuses of a fight that Kal-El himself instigated, what does the so-called 'Superman do? Does he race around the city, pulling survivors from the rubble? Put out the many fires he started? Save people from buildings at the verge of collapse? Stop a train before it flies from the now destroyed tracks? He kisses Lois before he fights Zod. Your gimmick is starting to fail.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 23:53
|
|
|
Rhyno posted:He kisses Lois before he fights Zod. Oh, I suppose we should be so lucky that Kal-El deigned to act at all, seeing as he was so busy with Lois. Timeline aside, the point about Kal-El's priorities remain.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2013 23:56
|
|
|
Would you say, LeJackal, that the christological subtext observed in the film, including things like Superman's pose while bailing out of the Kryptonian ship, are in fact his deliberate effort to harmonize himself with that which also advances the thesis you present - that he's claiming that humanity is low and base and awful... Christianity? Shall we see... a Super-Pope?
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 01:57
|
|
|
Maxwell Lord posted:It does feel weird to move straight from "origin story" to "crossover team-up" without anything in between. Like, I don't think Man of Steel worked ultimately, but I did think there was promise for a sequel because they've got the heavy exposition out of the way and can maybe look at the Clark/Superman dichotomy some more and the theme of him having these two lives, and maybe the people at the Daily Planet can do something besides look sternly at each other, etc. I liked Man of Steel, but otherwise I agree. It spent its running time setting everything up, and now that we're there, it feels like we should get a pure Superman story before venturing off into crossovers. I'm not going to dismiss this new one outright, but it seems weird to not only jump into a team-up but also introduce a new Batman in it rather than in his own movie. People make too much of it being so soon after the Nolan films.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 06:20
|
|
|
At first I thought Batman would have the moral high ground on Supes on the "you being here is the reason your city got blown the gently caress up" angle, but then I realized Superman has the "your appearance made Gotham go from a city with crime troubles and mobsters to getting hit by highly effective chaotic terrorist attacks and being held hostage by a nuclear bomb. All because you spent your fortune dressing like a loving bat and beating up dudes instead of investing in bettering the city the way your father did. Which, by the way, Gotham's biggest enemy told you was literally 100% effective" thing going for him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 07:34
|
|
|
Lost in the news over the announcement was that, when Goyer was asked at Comic-Con if he was surprised at fan backlash over Zod's death, he said:quote:To a certain extent, Superman, cinematically, hadn't been reinvented since the Donner films. We will be dealing with it in the coming film. He's not fully formed in Man of Steel. He will have to deal with the repercussions in the next film.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 07:36
|
|
|
In a perfect world, Man Of Steel 2 will feature Batman as the villain, and end with Superman snapping his neck.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 07:53
|
|
|
Hopefully it'll be an Adam West-esque Batman complete with Bat Neck Snapping Repellant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 08:25
|
|
|
Democratic Pirate posted:At first I thought Batman would have the moral high ground on Supes on the "you being here is the reason your city got blown the gently caress up" angle, but then I realized Superman has the "your appearance made Gotham go from a city with crime troubles and mobsters to getting hit by highly effective chaotic terrorist attacks and being held hostage by a nuclear bomb. All because you spent your fortune dressing like a loving bat and beating up dudes instead of investing in bettering the city the way your father did. Which, by the way, Gotham's biggest enemy told you was literally 100% effective" thing going for him. Whereas Clark's discovery of aliens with hyper tech led him to ...hop around and learn to fly. Don't worry though, hiding out didn't cause anything bad to happen to anyone.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 08:47
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:In a perfect world, Man Of Steel 2 will feature Batman as the villain, and end with Superman snapping his neck. No, no, no, Batman pulls a gun on Lois and Superman snaps his neck.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 08:55
|
|
|
Xealot posted:And they're right to say it. Anything else they could do would probably be respected less, and it's not like either is hurting for other projects they might want to do. Let more Batman be someone else's problem. I would like them to keep the theme music, though. Is Hans Zimmer returning?
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 09:07
|
|
|
They're not bringing back Baleman (Batbale? Bateman?), but rather re-introducing a new Batman, presumably one more in tune with the comicbook version, a la heavier emphasis on his detective skills and martial arts. A cross between Sherlock Holmes and Bruce Lee, I'm guessing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 20:27
|
|
|
Unoriginal Name posted:Whereas Clark's discovery of aliens with hyper tech led him to..... ...commit genocide, goad aliens into battle in a crowded city, and kill thousands of humans both actively and passively. Kal-El has no moral high ground to which he can retreat.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2013 22:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 13:38 |
|
|
McCloud posted:They're not bringing back Baleman (Batbale? Bateman?), but rather re-introducing a new Batman, presumably one more in tune with the comicbook version, a la heavier emphasis on his detective skills and martial arts. A cross between Sherlock Holmes and Bruce Lee, I'm guessing. This would be a fun character to introduce, in his own movie. Then again Warner Bros. has been wanting to make Superman/Batman for a while (the posters for it and a few other superhero type movies in I Am Legend- which takes place in the very near future- are all hints at projects WB had under development at the time) so they may have just grabbed on the first opportunity.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2013 01:05
|
|