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Gatts posted:Does Batman have to be white or male? Can the casting open up to consider other actors? I'd imagine that'd cause a shitstorm. Well I imagine the "man" part of Batman could present a little bit of a problem if it wasn't a man.
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Jul 31, 2013 16:17
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The best Suuperman/Lex Luthor interaction is the one where Lex is like you might be able to see into the electromagnetic spectrum, Superman, but you can't see into the human soul! Then Superman looks at him and is like, you're wrong, Lex... I CAN see your soul.
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Jul 31, 2013 16:22
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Gatts posted:Does Batman have to be white or male? Can the casting open up to consider other actors? I'd imagine that'd cause a shitstorm. Yes to both, if you keep his history. For his father to be a city-leading surgeon at the time in which he was, he will have to be white until he's aged to the point where his father did this in the 2000s or maybe the 90s. And even then, he'd have to be coming strictly from his father's wealth, as opposed to established family legacy, with his father being a continuing part of it, as he typically does. And, as said above me, the "man" part of his name is the second. Interestingly, though, Superman doesn't have to be white, although he'd have to be a "man" too.
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Jul 31, 2013 16:23
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Honestly, that kind of change is more likely to happen in the Spider-man movies than this (you've already got Peter Parker being killed off and replaced by Miles Morales, which pissed off all kinds of idiots).
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Jul 31, 2013 16:26
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I could see Batman not being white nowadays, but yeah there is a legitimate reason why he is traditionally white just owing to his origins. It doesn't say good things about society, but you know how that goes. ...and yes he does kind of need to be a man. Otherwise he'd be Batwoman or Lady Bat or whatever you want to call him. While some would love to see Batwoman get her own movie, I'd rather she get a good costume first. Just, at that point, it'd cease being Bruce Wayne. Though thinking on it, I just realized who WomanBruce would be. Or rather the false playboy personality that Bruce puts on-she'd be loving Paris Hilton. Answer me this. Do you REALLY want to see Batman be Paris Hilton? Because that's what comes to mind when I think "Female Bruce Wayne The Playboy".
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Jul 31, 2013 16:31
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Ferrinus posted:The best Suuperman/Lex Luthor interaction is the one where Lex is like you might be able to see into the electromagnetic spectrum, Superman, but you can't see into the human soul! Then Superman looks at him and is like, you're wrong, Lex... I CAN see your soul. That's from that same Azzarello/Bermejo comic someone referenced a page ago, but yes, it is the best.  
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Jul 31, 2013 16:34
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Darko posted:Yes to both, if you keep his history. That's the sorta thought I was wondering about. Is there something about the nature of the Bruce Wayne - Batman that had to have his family history make him be a white dude. I do remember something about his ancestors helping with the underground railroad, at least in TDK trilogy. As for the man part, eh, I suppose. Though wonder if the lady is under enough nonsexualized armor and doesn't put her lipstick or high heels on to fight crime...eh whatever I suppose, call it Bat-woman and Brucia Wayne. I'm kinda bored with the same old same old. EDIT: I just realized I kinda sound like the stereotype of a movie executive in a meeting going over the script. "Does he have to be a Bat-man? Can't he be a Wolverine-man? Wolverines are all the rage these days..." Gatts fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 16:34
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Darko posted:For his father to be a city-leading surgeon at the time in which he was, he will have to be white until he's aged to the point where his father did this in the 2000s or maybe the 90s. And even then, he'd have to be coming strictly from his father's wealth, as opposed to established family legacy, with his father being a continuing part of it, as he typically does. Even if Thomas Wayne has to be a white patrician physician, you could just make Martha black and Bruce multiracial, which would open the part up to black actors.
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Jul 31, 2013 16:45
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Burkion posted:Answer me this. Do you REALLY want to see Batman be Paris Hilton? Because that's what comes to mind when I think "Female Bruce Wayne The Playboy". I would unironically love to see this.
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Jul 31, 2013 17:01
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Luminous Obscurity posted:I would unironically love to see this. Ya know...I think I kinda might want to as well. It might work as the personality of a "Bruce" Wayne, spoiled playboy brat type. Like a better fit. EDIT: How about... Asian Batman: Tadanobu Asano, Byung Hun Kim, Joe Taslim...Yayan Ruhian Female Batman: Rhona Mitra, Cate Blanchett, Paula Patton...Roony Mara Comedy Batman: Stephen Chow, Ben Stiller, Will Arnett...Chris Tucker Villain Batman: Javier Bardem, Mark Strong/Andy Garcia, Vincent Cassel...Dominic West Older Batman: Edward James Olmos, Denzel Washington, Danny Trejo...Christopher Lee Or the best Batman, Matthew McConaughey Batman. And Nicholas Cage Robin. Gatts fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 17:04
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Batman is a very right-wing, class-bound idea so I feel like it would be genuinely progressive if they just said "actually, Bruce Wayne is now a black man". Or is the word I'm looking for revisionist?
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Jul 31, 2013 17:56
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Ferrinus posted:The best Suuperman/Lex Luthor interaction is the one where Lex is like you might be able to see into the electromagnetic spectrum, Superman, but you can't see into the human soul! Then Superman looks at him and is like, you're wrong, Lex... I CAN see your soul. So basically, Kal-El continuing his trend of self-appointed godhood. If he didn't believe human institutions were below him he would probably appoint himself Pope. drat his alien arrogance!
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Jul 31, 2013 17:59
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Young black teen whose father was a laid off WayneCorp employee who died of multiple cancers from prolonged exposure to microwave emitters and depleted uranium shell assembling vaguely legal weapons for Wayne's personal use and who was unable to afford medical care due in large part to Wayne and his cohort's financial speculation stumbles upon the Bat Cave while fleeing police. He dons the cowl and swears to avenge his father's death by taking down the criminal scum of Gotham.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:05
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Batman is a very right-wing, class-bound idea so I feel like it would be genuinely progressive if they just said "actually, Bruce Wayne is now a black man". Or is the word I'm looking for revisionist? Going off of that, there was Nighthawk of Supreme Power by JMS. A black man with resources and keen mind, but harbored resentment and was called out as racist/harboring prejudice against white people by the white "Superman" character. Curious if you have any thoughts about that?
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Jul 31, 2013 18:05
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LeJackal posted:So basically, Kal-El continuing his trend of self-appointed godhood. If he didn't believe human institutions were below him he would probably appoint himself Pope. drat his alien arrogance! It's not self-appointed godhood, he's just plainly stating facts. It says a lot more about Luther than it does about Superman that the sentence produces discomfort in the listener.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:09
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Gatts posted:Going off of that, there was Nighthawk of Supreme Power by JMS. A black man with resources and keen mind, but harbored resentment and was called out as racist/harboring prejudice against white people by the white "Superman" character. Curious if you have any thoughts about that? It's one of the last neat things JMS ever wrote and is a pretty neat take on Batman. Because JMS is JMS, it comes off at times like reading the script to Lakeview Terrace but is unusually strong given the many ways that premise could've been hosed up. He actually took care to give the character a legitimate beef rather than just making him a one-dimensional angry black man. e: Don't ask me about Stan Lee's black Batman because outside of the cool Kubert costume, I don't remember a drat thing about him. Batwing, the "Batman of Africa" has similar issues. I thought Morrison's Scalped-inspired Man of Bats stuff was decent but the Batwing stuff was lacking.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:11
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LeJackal posted:So basically, Kal-El continuing his trend of self-appointed godhood. If he didn't believe human institutions were below him he would probably appoint himself Pope. drat his alien arrogance! 
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Jul 31, 2013 18:19
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"Naked psyche" Superman owns and "cloddish paragon of virtue" Superman is the boring one everyone hates.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:21
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:"Naked psyche" Superman owns and "cloddish paragon of virtue" Superman is the boring one everyone hates. So, less this:  and more this? 
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Jul 31, 2013 18:25
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Ferrinus posted:It's not self-appointed godhood, he's just plainly stating facts. It says a lot more about Luther than it does about Superman that the sentence produces discomfort in the listener. That he can see a soul? The implicit underlying assumptions boggle the mind.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:28
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LeJackal posted:That he can see a soul? The implicit underlying assumptions boggle the mind.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:30
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Ferrinus posted:If you're as outrageously insecure as Lex Luthor, yes, they do. I might be a little lost here but is that kind of implying "If you've got nothing to hide then you don't have to worry about?"
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Jul 31, 2013 18:32
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LeJackal posted:That he can see a soul? The implicit underlying assumptions boggle the mind. He's not being literal you boob. That being said, Brian Azzarello's Superman tends to fall into the "huge rear end in a top hat" characterization.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:35
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Yea, I think the notion of the unknowable alien Other knowing you completely should be read as terrifying.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:37
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LtKenFrankenstein posted:He's not being literal you boob. Weeeelll...in Birthright by Mark Waid it's said Clark can see the "life" force around a living entity, like a person or animal, and can see it subside when it dies. Trying to give meaning behind how and why Clark appreciates life and whatnot. There's an implication that he sees more than we do. It was also reason for him being a vegetarian unlike past characterization. Another interesting visual was the Question mini-series. We see from the Question's POV when he's on some kind of chemical or gas or some such and he sees Superman as a kind of bright solar powered being versus regular humans differently.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:38
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Wade Wilson posted:So, less this: Exactly. Look how stylish that heraldic crown is. There's a guy who isn't afraid to be himself.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:40
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Gatts posted:Weeeelll...in Birthright by Mark Waid it's said Clark can see the "life" force around a living entity, like a person or animal, and can see it subside when it dies. Trying to give meaning behind how and why Clark appreciates life and whatnot. There's an implication that he sees more than we do. It was also reason for him being a vegetarian unlike past characterization. I choose to ignore Birthright as I find it corny and dumb. I don't think Azzarello was making some appeal to 'canon' there. Superman's line (very notably, his only line of dialogue in the entire miniseries), to me, can be read one of two ways: Either he's trying to psyche Luthor out by playing on what has got to be his absolute worst fear - that Superman is, in fact, an angry God - or he's telling Luthor in so many words that no matter all of his posturing about representing the best of Humanity and acting in the world's best interests, Superman can see right through all his bullshit. Azzarello is a master of layered dialogue, so these aren't necessarily the only readings, but I find them way more interesting then some "well actually Superman can see Luthor's bioelectric energy with his patented soul-o-vision" stuff. That Question miniseries was great, though.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:44
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Ferrinus posted:If you're as outrageously insecure as Lex Luthor, yes, they do. Or if you understand it is merely a continuation of Kal-El's belief in his absolute power and moral righteousness. If he believe he can see a man's soul, it follows with ease he believe he can judge it, and thus his actions can never be questioned. "Kal-El, why were you kissing Lois Lane while a busload of nuns burned to death?" 'Foolish mortal, I saw their souls, blackened with sin! Is yours? Maybe I should take a look...'
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Jul 31, 2013 19:05
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Danger posted:Young black teen whose father was a laid off WayneCorp employee who died of multiple cancers from prolonged exposure to microwave emitters and depleted uranium shell assembling vaguely legal weapons for Wayne's personal use and who was unable to afford medical care due in large part to Wayne and his cohort's financial speculation stumbles upon the Bat Cave while fleeing police. He dons the cowl and swears to avenge his father's death by taking down the criminal scum of Gotham. Back in the early 00s DC had Stan Lee reimagine their roster of heroes, so his version of Batman was black and poor. He makes his money by dressing up as bat and doing professional wrestling, but then once he's rich he realizes that even though he made it out of the rough neighbourhoods of Gotham, criminals (like the ones that killed his father still exist) so he starts fighting crime. He pretty much just combined Moon Knight and Spider-man and called it a day. He also gave him a mask that looks like an actual bat's head, similar to the first mask Catowman had.   Comic books!
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Jul 31, 2013 19:07
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All that Stan Lee DC stuff is hilariously quaint.
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Jul 31, 2013 19:11
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LeJackal posted:Or if you understand it is merely a continuation of Kal-El's belief in his absolute power and moral righteousness. If he believe he can see a man's soul, it follows with ease he believe he can judge it, and thus his actions can never be questioned. "Kal-El, why were you kissing Lois Lane while a busload of nuns burned to death?" 'Foolish mortal, I saw their souls, blackened with sin! Is yours? Maybe I should take a look...' See, it's like I said. These reactions to Superman reveal much more about the person voicing them than they do about Superman. Lex Luthor, libertarian science hero, is completely outmatched and defeated, and in his desperation appeals to his "soul" as some mystical ultimate trump card that even Superman can't gainsay. Of course, Superman turns out to be a much more rigorous and consistent materialist than Luthor himself is, because to him souls are just another part of a person's physical being, whereas for Luthor they're a weasely and disingenuous rhetorical device and weapon of last resort. Naturally, if Luthor did believe in souls he'd use them as a cost-saving measure ("no need to bother spending the resources required to save these people, their souls don't measure up") and literally can't imagine that anyone else wouldn't do the same. Of course, he also brings in hilariously revealing Judeo-Christian baggage to the concept, immediately conflating souls with judgment, damnation, sin, etc. There are similar points to be made about someone who sees a man kissing a woman and immediately interprets it as an act of violent domination - because why else would anyone do that, right? It's so gross! Tongues, mouths, ew!
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Jul 31, 2013 19:58
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Sir Kodiak posted:Even if Thomas Wayne has to be a white patrician physician, you could just make Martha black and Bruce multiracial, which would open the part up to black actors. In the 90's maybe. Interracial relationships were still hugely frowned upon until then, to the point where it wouldn't be feasible for someone in one to rise to the sort of social status Thomas and Martha had. Like I said, you can rewrite his history, or wait a decade or two until he's aged up where that history could happen feasibly with another race. As-is, though, Batman has to be white for at least another ten years or so with the base history that he has.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:07
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Ferrinus posted:See, it's like I said. These reactions to Superman reveal much more about the person voicing them than they do about Superman. It's also important that realist scientist supreme Lex (even businessman Lex is a scientist), when confronted with the truth about his ego, jumps to mysticism (soul) to avoid admitting error. It's another way to showcase his hypocrisy.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:09
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You could do it if the Wayne family lived in a pastiche of New Orleans.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:09
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:You could do it if the Wayne family lived in a pastiche of New Orleans. Gotham with a very think, theatrical culture imbued into it, that matches the themed heroes and villains? I like that.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:16
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Batman has to be white because of his imagined history is a pretty ludicrous argument. I mean, even if you consider the 'interracial marriage taboo' thing like suggested (which is also a silly reason), the 90's were 20+ years ago.
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Jul 31, 2013 21:15
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You could just put Batman in an imagined future. Half his gadgets kind of belong in a sci-fi milieu anyways. I think the only thing Batman can't be is poor, at least not without becoming a completely unrecognizable character.
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Jul 31, 2013 22:54
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:You could just put Batman in an imagined future. Half his gadgets kind of belong in a sci-fi milieu anyways. Read Superman Red Son. He's still Batman in every way that counts.
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Jul 31, 2013 23:05
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I think Nolan's films made a good point that a true 'Batman' MUST be poor, or more precisely abject in the sense that he/she is "radically excluded" from and horrifying to the system he/she is in opposition with.
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Jul 31, 2013 23:08
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Ferrinus posted:Of course, he also brings in hilariously revealing Judeo-Christian baggage to the concept, immediately conflating souls with judgment, damnation, sin, etc. Kal-El has already demonstrated a tendency to cast genocidal-level judgement based on the flimsiest pretenses. I'm willing to assume he'd use any excuse to justify his delusion of complete moral righteousness. In addition, Judeo-Christian normatives are common in both Kal-El's professed regional and cultural affiliations, not to mention that he is seen demonstrating knowledge and familiarity with said faiths. Ferrinus posted:There are similar points to be made about someone who sees a man kissing a woman and immediately interprets it as an act of violent domination - because why else would anyone do that, right? It's so gross! Tongues, mouths, ew! This is a far cry from dragging a woman close and reminding her that your strength could easily slay her ten times over - a strength you have demonstrated in conjunction with an invulnerability to the law. The mere threat and reminder of such strength is more than enough to erase any notion of consent.
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Jul 31, 2013 23:12
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