Torment: Tides of Numenera - Turns out there is room for 2!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Torment: Tides of Numenera - Turns out there is room for 2!

Khaba: Oct 29, 2011

I have to say, when I originally backed this I thought they were going to do it as a RTwP, and backed it despite my inability to get on with those games in the past. The fact that they've gone with Turn Based makes me very happy, since I always felt like you had to basically play turn based to get the most out of playing RTwP regardless.

# ? Dec 8, 2013 15:43

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# ? May 13, 2024 09:20

Grim: Sep 11, 2003; Grimey Drawer

Turn based is great because real tabletop RPGs are all turn based anyway

# ? Dec 8, 2013 21:46

Drifter: Oct 22, 2000; Belated Bear Witness; Soiled Meat

Grim posted:

Turn based is great because real tabletop RPGs are all turn based anyway

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

# ? Dec 8, 2013 21:55

CottonWolf: Jul 20, 2012; Good ideas generator

Kevin Saunders posted:

[grid/no grid?] We�re planning to first try no grid at all, but none of the options have been ruled out.

[WL2 combat and Torment] Torment won�t be taking the WL2 turn-based system wholesale. We�ll certainly be paying attention to what people like and don�t like from WL2�s combat, but Torment has different needs anyway. We can use much of the foundation, but one shouldn�t draw conclusions about Torment�s combat from WL2�s as we�ll change quite a bit so that it�s what�s best for Torment. The experience the programmers have from developing WL2�s system is what will be most beneficial.

No grid would be my preference, but I guess we'll see what happens.

CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Dec 8, 2013

# ? Dec 8, 2013 23:12

CrookedB: Jun 27, 2011; Stupid newbee

MartianAgitator posted:

this kerfuffle is completely the fault of of the devs, who could have just said "Turn-based or RTwP: TBD" on the kickstarter.

Which would've likely gotten exactly the same kind of comments ("PS:T was RTwP so I assumed the successor would be too!" "betrayal!" "InXile was pro-TB all along!" "Inxile's only going for turn-based because W2 is turn-based!" etc.) once they would've announced the decision to go turn-based.

# ? Dec 9, 2013 16:41

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the solution for fixing the combat in a proper Torment sequel should not be making the combat better and more prevalent, but replacing it entirely with the Walking Dead/Wolf Among Us style gameplay.

Also, that's what they should have done with Alpha Protocol.

# ? Dec 9, 2013 17:04

Drifter: Oct 22, 2000; Belated Bear Witness; Soiled Meat

Megazver posted:

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the solution for fixing the combat in a proper Torment sequel should not be making the combat better and more prevalent, but replacing it entirely with the Walking Dead/Wolf Among Us style gameplay.

Also, that's what they should have done with Alpha Protocol.

There were several elements of gameplay in TWD (I haven't played WAU yet). The dialog branching was already there in Alpha Protocol, so were you referring to the 'press <key> rapidly' gameplay? Because those quicktime events are/were/will forever be loving horrible and unnecessary.

# ? Dec 9, 2013 18:52

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

Drifter posted:

There were several elements of gameplay in TWD (I haven't played WAU yet). The dialog branching was already there in Alpha Protocol, so were you referring to the 'press <key> rapidly' gameplay? Because those quicktime events are/were/will forever be loving horrible and unnecessary.

And yet somehow, that poo poo works quite well for those games.

# ? Dec 9, 2013 19:09

Drifter: Oct 22, 2000; Belated Bear Witness; Soiled Meat

Megazver posted:

And yet somehow, that poo poo works quite well for those games.

Yes, thank god the developers saw fit to bless me by having me press "Q" 30 times in rapid succession.

What do you mean it works? It works on a technical level (not like their savegame system, lol) in that after having pressed a button many times the zombie is no longer slowly clawing at me, but as a legitimate gameplay device it's quite feeble and entirely unfun. Even the aiming portions when you had a gun in TWD were far more fun and interactive than that stupid thing you claim 'works' (note: I'm not calling you dumb, just that gameplay device you seemed to enjoy).

# ? Dec 9, 2013 19:21

Darkhold: Feb 19, 2011; No Heart❤️
No Soul👻
No Service🙅

The whole debate is a little surreal to me. It's like a reverse flashback.

I remember when RTwP didn't really exist and how when Baldur's Gate came along and overnight popularized it people were screaming about the 'death' of TRUE ROLE-PLAYING it ruins their immersion or something. The screams of fury when the Fallout 3 game (the isometric one that was cancelled) was likely to use such a crass system.

Now I'm seeing this whole debate in reverse. Now it's turn-based that breaks up the game and is a crappy outdated system. Now if only we can get Wasteland 3 to be announced as a FPS I'd think I was in some weird alternate universe.

# ? Dec 9, 2013 19:26

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Well personally I'm devastated it isn't puzzle quest style match 3 combat. I thought this is supposed to be a thinking mans game? Kickstarter refund requested!

# ? Dec 9, 2013 19:35

Drifter: Oct 22, 2000; Belated Bear Witness; Soiled Meat

Masonity posted:

Well personally I'm devastated it isn't puzzle quest style match 3 combat. I thought this is supposed to be a thinking mans game? Kickstarter refund requested!

That would actually make me kinda disappointed, honestly. Haha. Few things would make me feel like that from a videogame.

I would be okay with well done Choose-Your-Own-Adventure branching dialog combat.

# ? Dec 9, 2013 20:05

Gyshall: Feb 24, 2009; Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.

If I can't play the new Torment game with a plastic guitar controller, I am going to ask for my backer pledge back.

# ? Dec 9, 2013 20:08

Drifter: Oct 22, 2000; Belated Bear Witness; Soiled Meat

Gyshall posted:

If I can't play the new Torment game with a plastic guitar controller, I am going to ask for my backer pledge back.

My Wizard of Rock has some pretty wicked high level licks.

# ? Dec 9, 2013 20:18

Brought To You By: Oct 31, 2012

Megazver posted:

And yet somehow, that poo poo works quite well for those games.

It works for the type of game that The Walking Dead is being an extremely linear adventure game with light action elements. Basing all the combat in an open ended RPG entirely around QTE rapid button inputs doesn't seem like a good idea. Especially if the game is going to have considerable length, I'd rather micromanage a team of people through each encounter than break my keyboard hammering the space bar.

# ? Dec 9, 2013 21:41

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

Brought To You By posted:

It works for the type of game that The Walking Dead is being an extremely linear adventure game with light action elements. Basing all the combat in an open ended RPG entirely around QTE rapid button inputs doesn't seem like a good idea. Especially if the game is going to have considerable length, I'd rather micromanage a team of people through each encounter than break my keyboard hammering the space bar.

That's the point. It's Torment. Why the hell does it even need a poo poo ton of combat? It was 90% visual novel as it was and those were the good bits. "Man, I wish they'd cut the Civic Festhall to use those resources to add more areas like Curst Underground" - said no one ever. The action/combat sequences in the recent adventure games are used where you have to quickly choose between interesting outcomes of varying and sometimes not obvious severity, not as replacement for "Oh hey there's like fifty mobs between you and the quest destination. Good luck!"

# ? Dec 9, 2013 22:00

Oasx: Oct 11, 2006; Freshly Squeezed

While combat wasn't the focus, it was still a good part of the original game, and i think it would have been an overall lesser game with less of that combat,

# ? Dec 9, 2013 22:09

Drifter: Oct 22, 2000; Belated Bear Witness; Soiled Meat

Oasx posted:

While combat wasn't the focus, it was still a good part of the original game, and i think it would have been an overall lesser game with less of that combat,

I think you could easily do away with combat with a theme like this, but you'd have to change the setting a little.

Nobody wishes for combat in a game like Phoenix Wright (or it's at least wildly successful without it), and you can do the same here, except it's always easier to just go "Here's a dagger, click the mouse button to stab someone."

I enjoy the combat instances in games with a setting like D&D or similar that are isometric. But depending on the content and depth of other gameplay systems I could very easily do without it. :shrug:

# ? Dec 9, 2013 22:37

lordfrikk: Mar 11, 2010; Oh, say it ain't fuckin' so,
you stupid fuck!

I'd also be in favor or replacing the combat in a Torment game with something else. :blush:

# ? Dec 10, 2013 16:25

Chairchucker: Nov 14, 2006; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

I get that combat is less the focus of this game, but I like having it there so I can see how much more powerful I am now that I have done a whole bunch of stuff, and can flex my combat might at enemies that caused me trouble earlier.

# ? Dec 10, 2013 20:55

Drifter: Oct 22, 2000; Belated Bear Witness; Soiled Meat

Chairchucker posted:

I get that combat is less the focus of this game, but I like having it there so I can see how much more powerful I am now that I have done a whole bunch of stuff, and can flex my combat might at enemies that caused me trouble earlier.

You're thinking IN the box, man.

# ? Dec 10, 2013 21:04

Rhandhali: Sep 7, 2003; This is Free Trader Beowulf, calling anyone...; Grimey Drawer

Megazver posted:

And yet somehow, that poo poo works quite well for those games.

I don't know, Jurassic Park was done by the same crew and seemed entirely made of mash-buttons-in-sequence gameplay. I thought it was pretty terrible.

# ? Dec 10, 2013 21:18

Furism: Feb 21, 2006; Live long and headbang

Telltale just got the licenses for the video game adaptation of the TV show adaptation of the Song of Ice and Fire book, as well as Borderlands :jerkbag:

So get ready for more of those.

I like what they did with TWD, and A Wolf Among Us is alright for what I've seen so far (one episode), but I don't think that'll work for everything. Also gently caress them for not allowing to remap the keyboard. Not everybody on earth uses a QWERTY keyboard. gently caress them for that.

# ? Dec 10, 2013 21:35

Oasx: Oct 11, 2006; Freshly Squeezed

Drifter posted:

I think you could easily do away with combat with a theme like this, but you'd have to change the setting a little.

Nobody wishes for combat in a game like Phoenix Wright (or it's at least wildly successful without it), and you can do the same here, except it's always easier to just go "Here's a dagger, click the mouse button to stab someone."

I enjoy the combat instances in games with a setting like D&D or similar that are isometric. But depending on the content and depth of other gameplay systems I could very easily do without it.

I am not saying you can't make a game without combat, but i was more saying that i disagreed with the whole idea that combat sucked in PS:T (which is a a weird notion, because it works almost exactly the same as in the BG and IWD games). I think people forget just how much fighting there was to do, of course the story and the characters are what makes it memorable, but even if there was a way to magically remove all combat and have it be an adventure, i think it would make the game worse overall.

# ? Dec 10, 2013 21:52

Sleep of Bronze: Feb 9, 2013; If I could only somewhere find Aias, master of the warcry, then we could go forth and again ignite our battle-lust, even in the face of the gods themselves.

90% of combat suckage in PST was that bloody radial menu for spells which you had to click through a dozen times to get to your best spell. Then do it again next round. Hairtearingly frustrating.

# ? Dec 10, 2013 22:38

GoodluckJonathan: Oct 31, 2003

You could save spells in quickslots IIRC. I actually enjoyed playing as a mage in torment because it felt so good blasting things to smithereens with high level CGI spells. You go from being soooo weak early on to just annihilating things it was great.

# ? Dec 10, 2013 22:50

Drifter: Oct 22, 2000; Belated Bear Witness; Soiled Meat

Wachepti posted:

You could save spells in quickslots IIRC. I actually enjoyed playing as a mage in torment because it felt so good blasting things to smithereens with high level CGI spells. You go from being soooo weak early on to just annihilating things it was great.

I really enjoyed all those cinematic spells, too. :allears:

# ? Dec 10, 2013 23:38

Chairchucker: Nov 14, 2006; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

Sleep of Bronze posted:

90% of combat suckage in PST was that bloody radial menu for spells which you had to click through a dozen times to get to your best spell. Then do it again next round. Hairtearingly frustrating.

For me the bulk of combat suckage was the complete lack of autonomy my NPCs seemed to have. After every enemy downed, it seemed like I had to give everyone a new job. I would've preferred for them all to just move on to the next thug and start punching.

# ? Dec 11, 2013 07:44

The Crotch: Oct 16, 2012; by Nyc_Tattoo

That, the trouble they had with getting around other characters during a fight, and Grace's insistence on wasting all of her heals unless I babysat her or turned the AI off entirely.

# ? Dec 11, 2013 07:53

Raskolnikov: Nov 25, 2003

I liked turn based stuff. Pledged $25.

# ? Dec 11, 2013 08:59

Skizzzer: Sep 27, 2011

I just downloaded Torment through gog and got a bunch of mods for it updating the resolution. My god, is the artwork beautiful for this game or what? I really hope Numenera lives up to its predecessor.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 03:16

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Bunch of update stuff.

Heres a little bit of it:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera/posts/701213

quote:

...

Skills and Difficult Tasks

As you may recall from our talk about dialogue, skills work differently in Numenera than in most RPGs. In Numenera, skills don't define what you can do, but they do make success more consistent in related tasks.

Instead of designing with skills in mind, we design the tasks first. Anything you want to try to do � lie to an Oorgolian soldier, activate a long-dormant intelligence, manipulate an unfamiliar beam weapon, or dodge the lethal bite of a steel spider � is considered a Difficult Task. Every Task is assigned a difficulty level, a stat the Task is based on (Might, Speed, or Intellect), and an optional skill (or skills) that can apply. (In the tabletop game, difficulties range from 1 to 10; unmodified difficulties from 4-6 are tough (> 50% chance of failure), and difficulties of 7 and up are impossible without the modifiers discussed below).

Skills have four levels (Inability, Untrained, Trained, and Specialization). Training in any applicable skills lowers the difficulty by a step and specialization lowers it another step. (And as you might imagine, inability increases the difficulty, though inability is something you have to specifically choose through perhaps your descriptor or focus, and some skills don�t go lower than untrained). You'll notice that tasks at the highest difficulty are impossible even with specialization. Either multiple skills would have to apply to such tasks, or there must be another way to lower the difficulty.

And there is. In Numenera, another way � at higher levels, the primary way � to reduce the difficulty of a task is Effort. You can apply Effort by using points from your related Stat Pool (Might, Speed, or Intellect), up to a maximum Effort level determined by your character�s Tier (or level). Each level of Effort you spend lowers the difficulty by one more step. (There�s another stat called Edge that reduces the cost of using Effort, making lower-level tasks easier or even free as your character advances, but that�s a topic for another time.)

What this means is that anyone can have a chance of success at most tasks, if they're willing to spend their resources on Effort. Characters with applicable skills do not have a monopoly on related tasks, but they do have two advantages: they conserve their Stat Pools (saving Effort for the tasks that really matter) and they have a greater chance of success at previously impossible tasks.

Disabling Traps

The concepts of Difficult Tasks and Effort feed into every aspect of gameplay. Take the common exploration-style task of disabling traps. Like any other task, disabling a given trap will have a Difficulty associated with it (and you will be notified of this Difficulty, at least in an abstract way such as "Hard," "Very Hard," "Impossible," etc.). By spending Effort from the associated Stat Pool, you can lower that difficulty (probably Speed, though it could depend on the kind of trap).

And it will have skills that apply. Torment won't have a Disable Traps skill, but the Quick Fingers skill applies to this kind of task (as well as others). Training or specialization in Quick Fingers will lower the difficulty even further. But more than that, certain traps may have other skills that apply. For example, the difficulty to disable a mechanical trap might be lowered if you are trained or specialized in Lore: Machinery, but a transdimensional trap might allow Lore: Mystical to apply, or Lore: Civilizations if the trap has shifting runes for you to decipher, etc.

You might find that, for certain special traps, the nano in your party is just as equipped to disable it as the jack (one being trained in Lore, the other in Quick Fingers), so if one fails, the other can take a shot at it (because each character's first attempt is free, but further attempts will cost you something�assuming your disabling attempt doesn't set off the trap, of course). For some traps, maybe the nano is even better equipped, or at least doesn't have to spend as much Effort to achieve the same chance of success.

Other Exploration Tasks

If you can't (or don't want to) disable a trap, maybe you can jump over it? Not jumping like a platform game; it would be a specific action you take�like bashing a door or picking a lock�where you end up on the other side of the trap when you're done. We're talking about this and other alternatives (levitation, anyone?). Jumping would be like any task: Might-based Effort for which the Jumping skill can apply. Some traps might be extra tricky to disable but easy for your whole party to jump over. Other traps might be harder to jump over, but the means to disable it lies within easy reach on the other side, such that one party member can spend some Effort to get over the trap and turn it off.

The flexibility of Numenera's skill system gives us extra options for environmental puzzles. For us, a "puzzle" isn't an attempt to divine the will of the designer, but rather an obstacle with multiple solutions involving various Difficult Tasks and their applicable Effort and skills. To get at the beating heart of some ancient machine, you might smash through its cardiac gate, bypass the whisperlock, persuade the machine's custodian to give you a key, use a cypher to walk through the gate, etc. All of these are different tasks with different applicable skills, any of which you might try based on your party's skills and available Effort.

And if we're being true to our philosophies, different solutions can each have reactivity of their own (smashing down the gate might trigger extra defenses, persuading the custodian could mean you've gained a friend or used up a favor for another quest, using the cypher means you won't have it for a later task, etc.), ultimately resulting in more interesting replayability across the board.

...

# ? Dec 21, 2013 02:20

Fuschia tude: Dec 26, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

I just stumbled on a cool little thing (apologies if it was posted here, but I never saw it): a Planescape: Torment developers retrospective podcast interview last year, including hopes for a future kickstarter. A lot of familiar names in it; I don't think I realized at the time how much this was a 'getting the band back together' situation for the original creative team.

# ? Dec 22, 2013 17:18

Brother None: Feb 25, 2013; On the line for InXile

Fuschia tude posted:

I just stumbled on a cool little thing (apologies if it was posted here, but I never saw it): a Planescape: Torment developers retrospective podcast interview last year, including hopes for a future kickstarter. A lot of familiar names in it; I don't think I realized at the time how much this was a 'getting the band back together' situation for the original creative team.

I think it was while talking over doing that podcast that a) MCA suggested to Colin he'd join the WL2 writing team and b) Adam told Colin he'd like to get back into videogame development. So yeah!

# ? Dec 22, 2013 19:38

Twobirds: Oct 17, 2000; The only talking mouse in all of Britannia.

The core book for Numenera (the tabletop RPG, I mean) is 50% off in DriveThruRPG's New Year's sale for those who are interested. $10 for me in the US.

# ? Jan 8, 2014 00:53

Don Gato: Apr 28, 2013; Actually a bipedal cat.; Grimey Drawer

Is there a dedicated Numenera thread where I can ask about the RPG? I skmimmed through TG and I couldn't find any, which is too bad because it sounds interesting and I want to see if it actually plays well or if it needs to be houseruled to hell and back or what.

# ? Jan 9, 2014 03:11

Zurai: Feb 13, 2012; Wait -- I haven't even voted in this game yet!

There is.

# ? Jan 9, 2014 03:17

Fair Bear Maiden: Jun 17, 2013

In case anyone missed it, the latest update has a long write-up on inventory and loot mechanics. It's fairly similar to Planescape: Torment's system, but with proper equipment slots, weapon sets, and without a limit to the number of items you can carry (though they'll still be limited by ~~weight~~ encumbrance). Also, they're licensing the tech Obsidian is using for Pillars of Eternity's pre-rendered environments, and apparently are cooking up something to show in the next few weeks.

# ? Jan 29, 2014 18:37

Furism: Feb 21, 2006; Live long and headbang

Holyshitholyshitholyshit

quote:

�Lately we�ve had increased emphasis on developing Torment�s aesthetics and environments. To that end, we have some news related to our environment art: late last March, we announced that we�d be collaborating with Obsidian Entertainment on technology. This primarily meant their conversation editing tools. I�m happy to say that we�ve taken things a step further and recently reached an agreement to license Obsidian�s technology for Pillars of Eternity to use in Torment.�

�What are the practical implications of our licensing PE technology? It provides us with a stronger starting point for certain game systems and pipelines, including the creation of the 2D pre-rendered environments (we�re working on having something to show you in the coming weeks). This means we will have more resources to invest on other aspects of the game, allowing us to achieve a higher quality overall.�

I already liked the 3D demo screenshots they published, but if they make it 2D with the quality of what we've seen from Pillars of Eternity, I mean. Just. gently caress. YES.

I wonder how much 3D work was done and needs to be thrown out now, though, and what the impact will be on the development time. It's all for the better, though.

# ? Feb 10, 2014 13:55

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# ? May 13, 2024 09:20

Sleep of Bronze: Feb 9, 2013; If I could only somewhere find Aias, master of the warcry, then we could go forth and again ignite our battle-lust, even in the face of the gods themselves.

This was in the Torment update like a fortnight ago.

# ? Feb 10, 2014 14:10

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