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I just loved how huge 3 was, and how different each area was. Two was great though. I haven't finished it yet though, so maybe my opinion will change. It was the only one of the originals I didn't finish. I miss having music in the Avernum remakes. Even if it was repetative as hell, it was nice.
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Mar 17, 2014 06:16
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THE MACHO MAN posted:I just loved how huge 3 was, and how different each area was. Two was great though. I haven't finished it yet though, so maybe my opinion will change. It was the only one of the originals I didn't finish. The first Avernum game I played was Escape from the Pit, and after playing through 2 and some of 3, it always sounded like the ambient town noise in Avernum 2 was saying "gently caress you" to me. 
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Mar 17, 2014 06:20
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I've been interested in playing Spiderweb games for a little while now, but I don't know where I should start. I have Avernum 4-6 from some bundle, but I wouldn't be opposed to buying Escape from the Pit or Avadon if they're easier to get into. In fact, gog.com has Avadon 1 and 2 as part of their St. Patrick's Day sale, so that's an easy option. I'm mostly worried about difficulty level - I've never really played any games like these, so something relatively simple to ease me in would be best. And I'm really looking for a traditional fantasy setting, so although Geneforge looks really cool, I'd prefer Avernum or Avadon for now. If I get really into them, I'll check out Geneforge because the setting really is unique. Thanks for the advice!
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Mar 17, 2014 06:43
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THE MACHO MAN posted:I just loved how huge 3 was, and how different each area was. Two was great though. I haven't finished it yet though, so maybe my opinion will change. It was the only one of the originals I didn't finish. I've finished all the original trilogy of games. I could never get in to the 4th one because the world map change killed a lot of the fun for me, and I don't want to move on to 5 or 6 without finishing 4 because I know the stories are all interconnected. I wish 3 had not ended on somewhat of a cliff hanger.
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Mar 17, 2014 06:52
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Humerus posted:I've been interested in playing Spiderweb games for a little while now, but I don't know where I should start. I have Avernum 4-6 from some bundle, but I wouldn't be opposed to buying Escape from the Pit or Avadon if they're easier to get into. In fact, gog.com has Avadon 1 and 2 as part of their St. Patrick's Day sale, so that's an easy option. I'm mostly worried about difficulty level - I've never really played any games like these, so something relatively simple to ease me in would be best. All Spiderweb games except the very, very oldest ones have a difficulty setting that can be adjusted at any point during the game, and they tend to be pretty easy once you dial them down to the lowest difficulty. Avernum 4 has a lot of little gotchas in character creation and its midgame can turn into a bit of a frustrating slog, so it might not be the best game to start with. Avernum: Escape from the Pit has simpler and more transparent and intuitive character creation, but it's a very open-ended game where you pretty much learn that you're not really supposed to be in an area yet by the fact that everything there kills you; it also has some issues with bosses being much harder than the dungeon leading up to them, particularly in the early game. Avadon is a bit more linear and restrictive in where you can go and what you can do at a given point in the plot, which some players find limiting but which does mean it's harder to accidentally walk headfirst into a part of the game you're nowhere near ready for yet. All SW games also have free demos consisting of the first few areas of the game, so if you're still undecided just play the demo of the game that looks most appealing to you: you can load your saved game seamlessly in the full game and keep playing from where you left off.
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Mar 17, 2014 06:55
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Start wIth one of his late generation games, as you go back further the UIs get more arcane. The games can sometimes be tough, but more than honest difficulty you'll occasionally get frustrated with the encounters because he's really just not good at tightly built tactical combats. Generally if I lose a character in an encounter (not counting geneforge, I play that series using my critters as cannon fodder) or fail an encounter entirely it's due to the enemies having some sort of scripted advantage it's impossible to anticipate. There's a section in avadon where you can try to sneak by some patrolling enemies who will summon help that is in aggregate way more powerful than your party. They do this by running toward a point (once you've alerted them) where they then alert groups of monsters waiting offscreen. I decided to get around this by jumping them as they came around a corner and using the game's combat engine to keep them from escaping (in combat you can only move one tile per turn through squares adjacent to an enemy, meaning if you start next to one you can only retreat by one tile a turn if they follow you. Basically the spiderweb version of attacks of opportunity from d&d). I set my group up to use this rule to grab the sentry and prevent it from calling for help only to discover that specific monster had an ability never seen before or since that allowed it to ignore that rule arbitrarily, presumably because vogel didn't want his scripted encounter to be outwitted. I think that kind of design punishes the player for creativity and is crappy.
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Mar 17, 2014 12:48
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andrew smash posted:There's a section in avadon where you can try to sneak by some patrolling enemies who will summon help that is in aggregate way more powerful than your party. They do this by running toward a point (once you've alerted them) where they then alert groups of monsters waiting offscreen. I decided to get around this by jumping them as they came around a corner and using the game's combat engine to keep them from escaping (in combat you can only move one tile per turn through squares adjacent to an enemy, meaning if you start next to one you can only retreat by one tile a turn if they follow you. Basically the spiderweb version of attacks of opportunity from d&d). I set my group up to use this rule to grab the sentry and prevent it from calling for help only to discover that specific monster had an ability never seen before or since that allowed it to ignore that rule arbitrarily, presumably because vogel didn't want his scripted encounter to be outwitted. I think that kind of design punishes the player for creativity and is crappy. Yeah, he's kind of a jerk about that sort of thing. People who have beta-tested his games have lots of stories about how they solved a combat in a way he didn't anticipate and he edited the fight specifically to rule out that solution in the next beta.
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Mar 17, 2014 13:24
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Thuryl posted:Yeah, he's kind of a jerk about that sort of thing. People who have beta-tested his games have lots of stories about how they solved a combat in a way he didn't anticipate and he edited the fight specifically to rule out that solution in the next beta. Yeah, while these games have grids they're not really tactical games in any way. I have basically accepted that the way to get through tougher encounters is to gain levels.
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Mar 17, 2014 13:27
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Except in exile 1-3 where the solution is to cast bless and curse more. Or exploit AI pathing with walls of blades/force/ice.
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Mar 17, 2014 13:57
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I just re-read berryjon's LP of Exile 1 - it's brilliant and everyone should read it - and I was blown away by how huge the world seems to be in the game. I have a .png file of the fully explored map, and it's just amazing given the technological limitations of the time. To hear that the world gets even larger leaves me kind of gobsmacked.
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Mar 17, 2014 16:59
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Thanks for the advice, everyone. It sounds like Avadon would be the best place to start, so I picked it and the sequel up from gog.com...along with all 5 Geneforge games and Avernum 1-6. I'll be busy for a while, I guess.
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Mar 17, 2014 18:01
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andrew smash posted:Yeah, while these games have grids they're not really tactical games in any way. I have basically accepted that the way to get through tougher encounters is to gain levels. I think the worst is when an enemy just turns out to be immune to a damage type. It's pretty consistent in A:EftP, but absolutely all over the wall in Avadon. Like, of course a slavering hell hound takes fire damage, but a rabid hell hound is immune. And of course I just happen to meet them the time I decide to bring my sorceress along.
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Mar 17, 2014 18:53
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Arrhythmia posted:I think the worst is when an enemy just turns out to be immune to a damage type. It's pretty consistent in A:EftP, but absolutely all over the wall in Avadon. Like, of course a slavering hell hound takes fire damage, but a rabid hell hound is immune. And of course I just happen to meet them the time I decide to bring my sorceress along. I sort of agree but less for damage types than debuffs. The hellhound thing sounds like an oversight, I think the entire class is supposed to be immune. Pretty much every major enemy is immune to debuffs (or their resists are so high it's basically equivalent) which is stupid and just reminds me of final fantasy. Although golems should not be immune to acid damage. They are made of rock, not glass or plastic ffs.
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Mar 17, 2014 19:00
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Geneforge is on sale at Steam. 3.99 for all 5
shaitan fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Mar 17, 2014 |
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Mar 17, 2014 21:30
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Humerus posted:Thanks for the advice, everyone. It sounds like Avadon would be the best place to start, so I picked it and the sequel up from gog.com...along with all 5 Geneforge games and Avernum 1-6. I'll be busy for a while, I guess. Yeah, I just recently started myself and picked up the big pack from steam. I'm playing through Avernum (on my work PC) and Avadon (on my home PC). I've put more time into Avernum, but I actually find the story of Avadon much more engaging. Both are really awesome games, though. I'd be interested on what you decide to do with your characters, as I'm pretty much playing through both of these games blind.
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Mar 19, 2014 02:28
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I'm playing through Geneforge for the first time and I'm just wondering what sect is generally considered the best or most beneficial to side with. I don't know what kinda stuff each one offers me but I know that if I kill the leader of this one sect that the other sect will love me even though their sect is founded on the principle of "we hate your kind."
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Mar 28, 2014 23:47
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FirstAidKite posted:I'm playing through Geneforge for the first time and I'm just wondering what sect is generally considered the best or most beneficial to side with. I don't know what kinda stuff each one offers me but I know that if I kill the leader of this one sect that the other sect will love me even though their sect is founded on the principle of "we hate your kind." The Takers will let you win the easiest. The Obeyers give you the second-easiest win, but it's a big jump up in difficulty. They'll really help you in the midgame, though. The Awakened mostly help early game, but you can transition from them to the Takers. As a general rule, you can change factions, with the transition I mentioned being probably the easiest and most common. If You Seek Real Ultimate Power, the easiest way to get it involves Joining the Takers, then betraying them.
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Mar 28, 2014 23:59
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Arrhythmia posted:I think the worst is when an enemy just turns out to be immune to a damage type. It's pretty consistent in A:EftP, but absolutely all over the wall in Avadon. Like, of course a slavering hell hound takes fire damage, but a rabid hell hound is immune. And of course I just happen to meet them the time I decide to bring my sorceress along. I still have nightmares of Doomguards in Exile/Avernum 3. They're immune to all magic, get multiple attacks, hit like a runaway train, have a shitload of HP, and whenever you strike one it makes an exact duplicate. The HP difference is not split between them either, if you whack a doomguard and he's left with 300 HP, his clone gets 300 HP. The clones also spawn clones. You have to very gradually whittle down an entire army of self-replicating murderers unless you mass summoned everything in the book and abused the monster spawn-limit.
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Mar 29, 2014 00:10
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sitchelin posted:I still have nightmares of Doomguards in Exile/Avernum 3. They're immune to all magic, get multiple attacks, hit like a runaway train, have a shitload of HP, and whenever you strike one it makes an exact duplicate. The HP difference is not split between them either, if you whack a doomguard and he's left with 300 HP, his clone gets 300 HP. The clones also spawn clones. You have to very gradually whittle down an entire army of self-replicating murderers unless you mass summoned everything in the book and abused the monster spawn-limit. Another way to handle it, in Exile at least, was to drop a bunch of damaging field spells like Conflagration or Wall of Force around the doomguard. If there was no clear space within a 2-tile radius for the new doomguard to spawn in, it wouldn't appear. That way you only have to deal with fighting one doomguard (although you'd have to do it while standing in the middle of a damaging field). Alternatively, the Shockwave spell did non-elemental damage, so it could hurt doomguards: you could spam that to hurt all the doomguard clones at once, although you'd make even more of them in the process.
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Mar 29, 2014 01:06
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FirstAidKite posted:I'm playing through Geneforge for the first time and I'm just wondering what sect is generally considered the best or most beneficial to side with. I don't know what kinda stuff each one offers me but I know that if I kill the leader of this one sect that the other sect will love me even though their sect is founded on the principle of "we hate your kind." The Takers straight up change the gameplay for a good 10-15 areas of the game by letting you stroll through places which are otherwise filled with enemies...and fairly strong enemies at that. So if you're looking for the best gameplay decision, they're unquestionably the best even though you don't get any direct stat/skill benefit from it. In fact, it's actually such a big difference that the guides/walkthroughs of the game actually are completely different based on whether you're a Taker or not. Thuryl posted:Another way to handle it, in Exile at least, was to drop a bunch of damaging field spells like Conflagration or Wall of Force around the doomguard. If there was no clear space within a 2-tile radius for the new doomguard to spawn in, it wouldn't appear. That way you only have to deal with fighting one doomguard (although you'd have to do it while standing in the middle of a damaging field).
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Mar 29, 2014 01:51
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FirstAidKite posted:I'm playing through Geneforge for the first time and I'm just wondering what sect is generally considered the best or most beneficial to side with. I don't know what kinda stuff each one offers me but I know that if I kill the leader of this one sect that the other sect will love me even though their sect is founded on the principle of "we hate your kind." 
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Mar 30, 2014 05:33
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Zereth posted:Excuse me, you're a Shaper, you don't loving throw in with heretical sects like these. Destroy all threats to the Shaper regime and then get your rear end home to report. I did this on my most recent play through and it was great. 
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Mar 30, 2014 05:49
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Zereth posted:Excuse me, you're a Shaper, you don't loving throw in with heretical sects like these. Destroy all threats to the Shaper regime and then get your rear end home to report. I'm hardly even a shaper though. I just showed up on the island on my way to becoming a shaper and then touched some goo and now I can birth dragons from my ~essence~
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Mar 30, 2014 06:10
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FirstAidKite posted:I'm hardly even a shaper though. I just showed up on the island on my way to becoming a shaper and then touched some goo and now I can birth dragons from my ~essence~ Which is to say, you got fast-tracked into Shaper magic without adequate education. That's okay. The Council will forgive you as long as you're prudent about not abusing the cheats and destroy the upstart everybody and everything. At least the Obeyers have a proper grasp of their place in the world. Mostly.
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Mar 30, 2014 07:08
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FirstAidKite posted:I'm hardly even a shaper though. I just showed up on the island on my way to becoming a shaper and then touched some goo and now I can birth dragons from my ~essence~ WOULD YOU? 
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Mar 30, 2014 10:47
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Man I am the worst shaper in the world then haha gently caress I'm just gonna side with the Takers since the Awakened are already pissed at me for killing their leader and looting his poo poo.
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Mar 30, 2014 18:28
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FirstAidKite posted:Man I am the worst shaper in the world then haha gently caress I'm just gonna side with the Takers since the Awakened are already pissed at me for killing their leader and looting his poo poo. In that case make sure to use every blue canister you possibly can.
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Mar 30, 2014 19:08
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GreyjoyBastard posted:In that case make sure to use every blue canister you possibly can. Do that anyways. It only matters in the future games.
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Mar 30, 2014 19:17
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Roobanguy posted:Do that anyways. It only matters in the future games. Of course, future games can make it matter because they give other options to gain skills. In GF1, if you don't use canisters, you're pretty much stuck with physical attacks and items. It is viable to play Geneforge 1 without canisters mind you, it's just an enormous pain in the rear end and not really fun to do so.
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Mar 30, 2014 21:59
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Don't you have to use the fyora canister in order to proceed past the beginning area? Using any canister at all is verboten by the Shaper Council, which is why I just go hog wild with them in the name of
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Mar 30, 2014 23:51
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For some reason these Geneforge games grabbed my attention, between this thread and an LP I just saw of the first couple hours of GF1. Really neat worldbuilding, and I have always loved my Baldur's Gate. What is a good one to start with? Bear in mind I work fulltime and will probably only get through 1 game before burning out. The first game of most series is usually weaker and less fleshed out, in my experience, and you guys seem to think GFS was the best? But will I be missing out on the story if I don't start at the beginning?
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Mar 31, 2014 12:58
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Phenotype posted:For some reason these Geneforge games grabbed my attention, between this thread and an LP I just saw of the first couple hours of GF1. Really neat worldbuilding, and I have always loved my Baldur's Gate. Geneforge 5 does give you enough exposition that you'll know what's going on and not miss out on anything important, even if you don't recognise the significance of all of the historical events and recurring characters. It's a very solid game and if you think you're only likely to play one game in the series, I'd probably say to go for that. Geneforge 1 is actually a really well-written game and a lot of people's favourite in the series, but the engine is kind of showing its age even by Spiderweb standards.
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Mar 31, 2014 13:03
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Phenotype posted:For some reason these Geneforge games grabbed my attention, between this thread and an LP I just saw of the first couple hours of GF1. Really neat worldbuilding, and I have always loved my Baldur's Gate.
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Mar 31, 2014 13:10
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Thuryl posted:Geneforge 5 does give you enough exposition that you'll know what's going on and not miss out on anything important, even if you don't recognise the significance of all of the historical events and recurring characters. It's a very solid game and if you think you're only likely to play one game in the series, I'd probably say to go for that. Geneforge 1 is actually a really well-written game and a lot of people's favourite in the series, but the engine is kind of showing its age even by Spiderweb standards. GFS was actually an autocorrect for GF2 that I didn't notice. I've seen several people refer to it as the best of the games, and it seems like the plot is pretty similar to the first, in that you're a new Shaper arriving at a strange remote location. I also saw that Vogel said that, since the engine was already done, he had the most time to devote to the actual game. I've also seen a few people here saying GF1 was kind of a slog. Am I missing anything important if I skip the first game? I'm already assuming it turns out the Shapers are not happy with the serviles wanting freedom, because I saw the tagline for the fourth game was Rebellion or something. I kind of hope I have the drive to play through more than one or two games, because it looks like the perspective for that one would be better if I'd seen more of the world.
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Apr 4, 2014 14:47
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Phenotype posted:GFS was actually an autocorrect for GF2 that I didn't notice. I've seen several people refer to it as the best of the games, and it seems like the plot is pretty similar to the first, in that you're a new Shaper arriving at a strange remote location. I also saw that Vogel said that, since the engine was already done, he had the most time to devote to the actual game. I've also seen a few people here saying GF1 was kind of a slog. Am I missing anything important if I skip the first game? I'm already assuming it turns out the Shapers are not happy with the serviles wanting freedom, because I saw the tagline for the fourth game was Rebellion or something. I kind of hope I have the drive to play through more than one or two games, because it looks like the perspective for that one would be better if I'd seen more of the world. You're not missing a ton if you skip GF1 - it has a lot of general backstory and world-building about the origins of the Shapers and the major factions of the world, along with setting the overall stage. But it's not nearly as directly connected as later games. Starting with GF2 will give more than enough for you to understand what's happening and enjoy the world-building, though you might miss a few of the "hey, I know you!" moments. To use an analogy, I'd say that 2 through 5 are almost like one continuous storyline of novels, with 1 serving as sort of a "prequel". Yeah, it's worth checking out eventually, yeah you'll recognize some stuff if you read the prequel first, but you're in no way missing out if you start on the actual series. I personally started with GF2 and I'd recommend that, though if you're new to Spidweb games in general, GF5 is very solid too. Also, while GF1 has a lot of cool stuff, it absolutely is a slog. There's an insanely limited selection of spells and creations, plus a lot of the very nice conveniences that come about in later games just aren't present.
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Apr 5, 2014 00:44
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GF2 is also the peak of Agent supremacy. 
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Apr 5, 2014 01:05
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Well, I got pretty sunk into Geneforge 2 last night, and I'm kinda wondering if I made some bad choices. I was hoping to specialize in Magic and Battle creations, but the Artila I can summon right now runs out of energy in two or three shots, and I've had several battles now where he was absolutely worthless, missing a few times and then doing nothing for the rest of his turns. And I have no idea when I'll be able to summon anything from Battle -- Summon Thahd? Have I screwed myself? I haven't put points into any real combat stat besides Magic summoning, just Intelligence, mechanics, and leadership for the most part, and now I'm level 4 and stuff is starting to give me 1 exp. On the plus side, I really like this game so far. I love the world-building, and I'm still really unsure who I want to support. I went ahead and turned in the smart servile at Drypeak - I'm a shaper, goddammit, and you haven't showed me anything worth going against the party line yet. Right now I'm headed to the Crags and a witch named Sharon's hut, and I'm kinda eager to get moving with the storyline, but I'm running into a ton of 1exp Fyoras that send me back to town to heal up pretty often.
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Apr 5, 2014 15:49
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Artilas do have energy issues early on, but magic shaping becomes very powerful later in Geneforge 2: Vlish are excellent and can carry you through most of the midgame, and the top-tier Magic creation is probably the strongest creation in the game. Keep pumping your Magic Shaping skill and any new creations you make will be generated at a higher level, with better stats and more HP and energy. Unfortunately, though, Battle Shaping is pretty disappointing in every game except Geneforge 5. As a shaper, blessing magic, mental magic and healing craft are all worth investing a little in to support your creations. Battle magic is a bit dicey, since it tends to draw aggro to you, which you generally don't want. Thuryl fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Apr 5, 2014 |
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Apr 5, 2014 16:44
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Phenotype posted:On the plus side, I really like this game so far. I love the world-building, and I'm still really unsure who I want to support. I went ahead and turned in the smart servile at Drypeak - I'm a shaper, goddammit, and you haven't showed me anything worth going against the party line yet. Right now I'm headed to the Crags and a witch named Sharon's hut, and I'm kinda eager to get moving with the storyline, but I'm running into a ton of 1exp Fyoras that send me back to town to heal up pretty often. Don't lock yourself into supporting anyone too quickly. There's a lot of options that come up once you've progressed a bit into the story. As for the combat, make sure you're using magic to support your creations. Mental magic (especially Daze) is great at holding off groups of enemies to buy you time and the blessing spells are fantastic (e.g., Protection cuts all damage by a whopping 20%). Note, however, as long as it's high enough to actually cast your spells, additional points in Blessing Magic only help the duration, so you're probably good just sticking with the bare minimum.
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Apr 5, 2014 18:10
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Thuryl posted:Artilas do have energy issues early on, but magic shaping becomes very powerful later in Geneforge 2: Vlish are excellent and can carry you through most of the midgame, and the top-tier Magic creation is probably the strongest creation in the game. Keep pumping your Magic Shaping skill and any new creations you make will be generated at a higher level, with better stats and more HP and energy. Unfortunately, though, Battle Shaping is pretty disappointing in every game except Geneforge 5. I'm surprised to hear that about Battle Shaping -- the rogue thahds are one of the scariest enemies because they can still one-shot my PC, and now that I've bought the Create Thahd spell he's my heaviest hitter. I gained a few levels and cleared out the Infested Forest and Drypeak Mines, and my Artilas are definitely starting to pull their weight. Sharon's sent me to Saltmarsh, which has some high level creations wandering around freely that murdered me easily when I went there last night, but I'm very carefully getting through it. Or I could go to the Western Mines, where I don't have any real motivation to explore. I'm running with 2 Artilas and a Thahd now, all with +2 int and +1 dex, and I'm starting to be able to just roll through these early levels...but those Saltmarsh rogues were all stuff I've never seen before, and they hit really hard. How long is this game supposed to be? I'm wondering when I'm going to find Barzhul's village, since I've been traipsing through unrelated areas for a while now.
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Apr 5, 2014 19:40
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