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Alexander Lukashenko is the best speaker full stop. He can talk for five hours straight and shouting at journalists half of the time.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:29
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Majorian posted:I don't remember Bush speaking in front of non-supportive audiences all that often. Also, this is the worst derail. It's a perfectly fine "derail" as their is no new news from the area, and you started off this page claiming Obama's usual pathetic, halting, milquetoast vagaries, were "an excellent speech." Sorry some of us have actually heard a half-decent speech in our day.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:29
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Pobama posted:It's a perfectly fine "derail" as their is no new news from the area, and you started off this page claiming Obama's usual pathetic, halting, milquetoast vagaries, were "an excellent speech." Again, I was talking about its content, not its presentation. So far you haven't been able to say anything about it beyond that European leaders wouldn't be reassured by it. Delve a bit deeper into that, please.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:31
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It's a better derail than nukechat. Oh gently caress we're now in a metaderail.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:31
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Total lack of enthusiasm or forcefulness tends to mitigate content.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:32
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To be honest, I'm not sure any kind of speech from Obama could have changed much about the situation. Everyone expected some posturing from the US, but until any actions from the US government follow the speech, not many people are going to take it seriously.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:33
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Gantolandon posted:To be honest, I'm not sure any kind of speech from Obama could have changed much about the situation. Everyone expected some posturing from the US, but until any actions from the US government follow the speech, not many people are going to take it seriously. The main thrust of the speech seemed to be to get the Europeans off their butts and do something.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:35
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Majorian posted:Again, I was talking about its content, not its presentation. So far you haven't been able to say anything about it beyond that European leaders wouldn't be reassured by it. Delve a bit deeper into that, please. The content was just as underwhelming as the presentation. As has been pointed out, there really isn't much force the US is willing to apply to the situation. I'm saying the speech could have been made or not made and the situation would remain the same. It was pomp, without circumstance, fluff, without air. Meaningless, like much of his term. President Obama: American, Democrat, President, 2008-2016: sucked the financial sectors dick, very slightly less vigorously than before, passed a mid-90's Republican created healthcare reform package, and gave one hell of a speech on March 26th 2014...about something or other...I forget now. Cesar Cedeno fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Mar 26, 2014 |
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Mar 26, 2014 23:35
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Deteriorata posted:The main thrust of the speech seemed to be to get the Europeans off their butts and do something. Europeans are going to nod wisely, agree with the wisdom of the US President and write even harsher letters to Putin.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:38
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Gantolandon posted:Europeans are going to nod wisely, agree with the wisdom of the US President and write even harsher letters to Putin. Probably not even that. We're left with our dick in our hands yet again as the main opposition to Russia in the EU. Expect them to mysteriously start finding things wrong with our produce and manufactured goods again real soon.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:39
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Pobama posted:The content was just as underwhelming as the presentation. As has been pointed out, there really isn't much force the US is willing to apply to the situation. Were you hoping for Obama to, like, declare war on Russia or something? 
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Mar 26, 2014 23:42
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Majorian posted:Were you hoping for Obama to, like, declare war on Russia or something? Of course not, I'm simply saying, as I've said before, the speech was a mediocre one at best, no matter how you look at it. I don't want any US intervention, and if Obama really wanted to go all in on empty gestures, he should have skipped the speech all together and flown into Kiev to meet with Ukrainian "leaders" personally or something. If I were him I'd go more for actions than words...since his words...is very bad...not good words.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:45
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Majorian posted:Were you hoping for Obama to, like, declare war on Russia or something? Some real sanctions and strong incentives for the European leaders to follow suit would be a good start.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:45
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Majorian posted:Were you hoping for Obama to, like, declare war on Russia or something? I don't understand it as well. Any kind of military action would be foolish, and I wonder if the Ukraine would be better off by being turned into a giant battlefield. So that's out. And the USA just has not enough trade with Russia for sanctions to really hurt Putin. Shuffling a few NATO troops to the eastern borders to show that any action against a NATO state will lead to war is all right, what else should Obama do?
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Mar 26, 2014 23:48
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Pobama posted:Of course not, I'm simply saying, as I've said before, the speech was a mediocre one at best, no matter how you look at it. Well, I thought his words were pretty good. Like, I'm really not seeing where they were as bad as you say they were. Sure, he stammered and spoke in a subdued tone, but I think the tone part was by design anyway. It conveyed a sobriety and humility that US foreign policy hasn't seen for years - an understanding that the solution to this problem is going to have be a multilateral one, not just the US jumping in there and saying "You're either with us or the Russians." "Excellent" was probably an overstatement on my part, but I think it was certainly the right speech to give at the moment. Gantolandon posted:Some real sanctions and strong incentives for the European leaders to follow suit would be a good start. Real sanctions on what, though? Where can we hit Russia economically that will really hurt them, but not hurt them so much that they'll go Germany-post-1920's?
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Mar 26, 2014 23:50
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Obama grew up in hawaii speaking pidgin. The fact that he can make fully coherent sentences at all speaks to his ability to overcome adversary.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:51
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Pobama posted:Of course not, I'm simply saying, as I've said before, the speech was a mediocre one at best, no matter how you look at it. I think Obama's playing the few cards we do have (financial pressure on Russia via sanctions to make Crimea & potentially the rest of Ukraine a poo poo move for Russia) and letting the EU show whether they want to step up so USA does not have to get criticized for being this dumb world police that Bush and some predecessors tried to make us be.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:53
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Majorian posted:Real sanctions on what, though? Where can we hit Russia economically that will really hurt them, but not hurt them so much that they'll go Germany-post-1920's? Begin to treat preferentially trading partners who do less business with Russia, for example.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:07
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Colonel Mamchur is free and on the Ukrainian mainland. quote:Journalist Yuri Butusov had a phone conversation with Colonel Mamchur who have been released today from detention in Crimea and is finally on the mainland in Ukraine. https://www.facebook.com/topaz.salat/posts/734371176603181
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Mar 27, 2014 00:08
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Gantolandon posted:Begin to treat preferentially trading partners who do less business with Russia, for example. That leaves out the EU, China, and Ukraine. Do you have any particular countries in mind?
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Mar 27, 2014 00:12
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Majorian posted:That leaves out the EU, China, and Ukraine. Do you have any particular countries in mind? "Less business", not "no business at all". Encouraging other nations to reduce their involvement with Russia, via incentives and subtle pressure, would probably work better, though.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:15
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Pobama posted:Of course not, I'm simply saying, as I've said before, the speech was a mediocre one at best, no matter how you look at it. Are you John McCain's alt?
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Mar 27, 2014 00:17
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Gantolandon posted:"Less business", not "no business at all". Encouraging other nations to reduce their involvement with Russia, via incentives and subtle pressure, would probably work better, though. That's going to be hard to do, given that a lot of Russia's biggest trade partners rely on Russian electricity. I'm not trying to be nitpicky, by the way, I'm just pointing out that coming up with really well-targeted sanctions that the EU is going to agree with is going to be tough.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:18
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Majorian posted:That's going to be hard to do, given that a lot of Russia's biggest trade partners rely on Russian electricity. I'm not trying to be nitpicky, by the way, I'm just pointing out that coming up with really well-targeted sanctions that the EU is going to agree with is going to be tough. The reliance on electricity is a long-term problem, sure. I don't expect the perfect solution to came up within a day. But really, finding any solution at all is the only thing that matters. Until then, quality of Obama's speech isn't going to matter much.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:23
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Runaktla posted:Look at this armchair politician criticizing somebody else but not saying what he would do in this situation. Honestly this is Europe's responsibility. Ukraine is in Europe, the EU wants to go East, we're by far the most important trading partner of Russia and Putins bizarre visions for a Russian led counter-balance to the West will affect us most. The US is not in the best position to act and it shouldn't be the US. If we are not willing to back our speeches with meaningful force then why should the US and why should anyone care about Europe? The EU should start working towards a closer relationship with Ukraine. Give them loans, help them reform their government and economy and start to economically integrate. Put Ukraine on the fast track and drag them away from Russia. In the short term I don't see anything we can really do veyond trolling the Russians with NATO bases or something.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:26
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Colonel Mamchur is free and on the Ukrainian mainland. Whew, I was worried when I read the Russians captured him after taking the base. I figured they would treat him much more harshly for daring to openly defy the green men like he and his men did, good to hear he's ok. e: from that facebook page  "Hero of Ukraine" "He did not break the oath" also lol that it's from 'demotivators.to' rockopete fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 00:35
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Gantolandon posted:The reliance on electricity is a long-term problem, sure. I don't expect the perfect solution to came up within a day. But really, finding any solution at all is the only thing that matters. Until then, quality of Obama's speech isn't going to matter much. Part of finding that solution is going to have to be strengthening the US-EU coalition. If you want stronger sanctions to happen, the Western powers have to make sure that the coalition can rely upon its constituent members to not buckle at the first sign of Russia raising electricity or gas prices. I think that's what made today's speech appropriate in this context.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:37
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Mr. Nice! posted:Obama grew up in hawaii speaking pidgin. The fact that he can make fully coherent sentences at all speaks to his ability to overcome adversary. I would definitely enjoy an alternate version of the speech, bonus points if it includes the phrases "he no can" and "give back da 'aina".
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Mar 27, 2014 00:37
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hailthefish posted:I would definitely enjoy an alternate version of the speech, bonus points if it includes the phrases "he no can" and "give back da 'aina". You cockaroach Crimea? Kay den, you get sanction bra.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:49
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ayn rand hand job posted:The dude reads words off of a teleprompter. Please tell me that was facetious. That is the dumbest goddamn talking point ever. HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Flipper flipped to the other side. Wait, so in Red Alert 2, it should have been the COMMIES that had battle dolphins? Why have I been lied to that severely?
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Mar 27, 2014 01:15
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Anosmoman posted:Honestly this is Europe's responsibility. Ukraine is in Europe Anosmoman posted:The EU should start working towards a closer relationship with Ukraine. Give them loans, help them reform their government and economy and start to economically integrate. Put Ukraine on the fast track and drag them away from Russia. In the short term I don't see anything we can really do veyond trolling the Russians with NATO bases or something. CSM fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 01:29
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Pobama posted:The content was just as underwhelming as the presentation. As has been pointed out, there really isn't much force the US is willing to apply to the situation. Did Obama pick on you when you were a kid or something? CSM posted:Europe is a continent. It's a land mass. It doesn't have responsibilities for anyone or anything since it it's a lifeless pile of dirt. So is Russia. So is Germany. So is America. Stop being a jackass. Dusty Baker 2 fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 01:45
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On vaguely related news, Denmark has also decided to send additional F-16 fighters to guard the Baltic airspace as a sign of solidarity. It hasn't been officially confirmed yet, but as it was being mentioned already last week I guess it's happening. I'm not sure if we should be flattered or worried.
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Mar 27, 2014 01:49
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the best part of the Obama speech was trying to justify the Iraq misadventure:quote:Even in Iraq, America sought to work within the international system,” Obama said. “We did not claim or annex Iraq’s territory. We did not grab its resources for our own gain. Instead, we ended our war and left Iraq to its people in a fully sovereign Iraqi state that can make decisions about its own future.”
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Mar 27, 2014 02:11
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Watch as every Western country decides it has to show solidarity by sending F-16s, causing the Baltic countries to run out of space on their airfields and grounding planes across the region.
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Mar 27, 2014 02:21
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I suppose it might be cheaper and easier than sending a bunch of troops, and achieves the same goal. Edit: VVVV Yeah, there's actually a good implicit "Even in Iraq, where we royally hosed up, we knew how to put on a better show for international audiences". Dolash fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 02:27
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etalian posted:the best part of the Obama speech was trying to justify the Iraq misadventure: How is that him justifying it?
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Mar 27, 2014 02:28
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Dolash posted:I suppose it might be cheaper and easier than sending a bunch of troops, and achieves the same goal. The Iraq war was just as illegal as the Crimean occupation, regardless of the "good show"
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Mar 27, 2014 02:33
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ChaosSamusX posted:Please tell me that was facetious. That is the dumbest goddamn talking point ever. Someone asked when it became trendy.
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Mar 27, 2014 02:41
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Incredibly debatable that it was even a good show. As Crimea is showing, Bush basically gave anyone with enough nukes a "b-b-but Iraq" card for who knows how long. But yeah, I guess we didn't try to annex Iraq from halfway across the world (some industrious Georgetown GOPer intern put in charge of a facet of the occupation probably wanted to do this though I'm sure).
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Mar 27, 2014 02:42
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