|
EasternBronze posted:I am being ironic. Lid ditched the thread after I showed him around 80% of worldwide homicide victims are men. Of course, maybe those men weren't killed because of misandry so they probably don't count or something. Patriarchal culture also damages men, even though this seems counterintutitive at first. This is like basic 101 poo poo. He probably left because he realized you were dumb as poo poo and using literal MRA arguments about feminism. So leaving probably was a smart move on his part.
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 07:43 |
|
|
Typical Pubbie posted:Oh My God, I never made a judgment on whether he was primarily motivated to kill by misogyny. Typical Pubbie posted:How can you read this as something other than "Misogyny is but one of the many problems with me, as I have just made it abundantly clear that I want to kill as many people as possible, male and female, particularly the ones who have lots of sex. I'm violently obsessed with sex!" You explicitly said that you think it wasn't primarily misogyny but a violent obsession with sex, so good job being a lying fucker in addition to an idiot and a misogynist: Typical Pubbie posted:There's a powerful lesson about how the patriarchy negatively effects men here, but I suspect feminists will blow it because the death and suffering of men barely ranks above meaningless to them. Protip: just like how people can be homophobic without being literally afraid of gay people, you are being misogynistic by downplaying the role of gender in what happened and pretending that men are the ones who actually have it worse if you think about it because you think women don't care if they die.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:14
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:It's not about the men Pubbie. How does it feel to be a fanboy of a spree killer?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:15
|
|
|
Mornacale posted:What is the benefit of this point of view? Some childish sense of satisfaction on your own part from really sticking it to that dead guy? Is refusing to address these issues really a good price to pay for the chance that somehow "people talking about things" is the dividing line for someone between killing a bunch of people and living a nonviolent life? It's not really revenge against the dead guy. It's prevention for the next one. Frankly, as someone who craves attention, as many people do, it hurts me to know that the fast and easy track to getting it is killing a bunch of people in the name of whatever I want people to be talking about. And I'm sure there are other people out there who decide to actually go through with it. The idea of a mass shooting out there spurs on other mass shooters in and of itself, and the idea that it's a way to have attention paid to you massively contributes to the process. That video a few pages back explained that it's harmful for the media to obsess over the killer's name and face. Frankly, my writing is just as much a part of my identity as my name and my face.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:15
|
|
|
I'm 100% serious in this post, and I'm answering everything to the best of my knowledge based on my reading his manifesto and what other people have pointed out form his manifesto.Typical Pubbie posted:Oh My God, I never made a judgment on whether he was primarily motivated to kill by misogyny. My contention has always been with the supposed motivation behind the men he targeted. You keep talking as if I haven't acknowledged the relevance of misogyny in the killing spree or in who Rodger was as a person is so loving disingenuous. That or you don't read half of what I write. He killed his roommates (and one of their unlucky friends who was over at the time) because he hated them. He hated that they were confrontational, he hated them because he felt they were more sociable than they were, and he hated them because his old roommates were much better than they were. He also talked about creating a kill room at his place to lure people to, but that never happened. Now the kill room thing is easy to see why he didn't enact, and that's because he was literally the embodiment of  . That's also the reason why his original plan, one that he actually attempted instead of just wrote about was foiled because of a locked door on the sorority house.Every other man he targeted were random targets with no motivation besides (and I'm not a psychologist so best guess) inflicting pain on those who he felt slighted him, which include men who he thought were cock blocking him when it comes to getting laid.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:17
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:Patriarchal culture also damages men, even though this seems counterintutitive at first. Well that and he was completely wrong about the chance of dying violently in terms of gender. Almost as if he was basing his opinion on some erroneous information! quote:How does it feel to be a fanboy of a spree killer? I'm not sure what you're basing this on, maybe the fact that I think a mentally ill man latching on the some absurd fantasies and than killing a bunch of people doesn't really say anything important about our society?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:17
|
|
|
A Winner is Jew posted:Every other man he targeted were random targets with no motivation besides (and I'm not a psychologist so best guess) inflicting pain on those who he felt slighted him, which include men who he thought were cock blocking him when it comes to getting laid. I think at that point he was just on a panicked rampage, which obviously is more of a window into his mindset that the 140-page document explicitly detailing his life story and accumulated grievances with society that triggered the rampage. Rarely do you get such a full on Why I Did It from a spree murder, which makes it extra funny that we're throwing all that out the window because it's too politically advantageous to feminists or whatever horseshit
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:18
|
|
|
quote:Protip: just like how people can be homophobic without being literally afraid of gay people, you are being misogynistic by downplaying the role of gender in what happened and pretending that men are the ones who actually have it worse if you think about it because you think women don't care if they die. Women certainly have it worse in some ways but in terms of violent death, they most certainly do not.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:20
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:Women certainly have it worse in some ways but in terms of violent death, they most certainly do not. Good thing "chance of violent death" is not the only parameter we use to judge female disadvantage either historically or in contemporary society.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:21
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:Women certainly have it worse in some ways but in terms of violent death, they most certainly do not. What percentage of the murderers do you think are men? Because the problem is that men are murdering people, not that men are being unfairly targeted for getting murdered because of misandry, which is what you're asserting.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:22
|
|
|
You have people here claiming Elliot was spending hours a day on MRA websites. In his manifesto he had more words about how he was driven off World of Warcraft because now it was full of stupid normies who use "virgin" as an insult, than about reading the anti-PUA website. He was having violent fantasies about torturing people who did the evil sin of "being in the same room as him and being sociable" since he was a teenager.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:23
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:I think at that point he was just on a panicked rampage, which obviously is more of a window into his mindset that the 140-page document explicitly detailing his life story and accumulated grievances with society that triggered the rampage. I have no problem with this assessment either but like I said, I was going off what he actually wrote down since we can't question him about what happened after his grand scheme of retribution was foiled because of a locked door. Also, does anyone else laugh at the whole locked door thing because I can't stop when I think about it. Soviet Space Dog posted:You have people here claiming Elliot was spending hours a day on MRA websites. In his manifesto he had more words about how he was driven off World of Warcraft because now it was full of stupid normies who use "virgin" as an insult, than about reading the anti-PUA website. He was having violent fantasies about torturing people who did the evil sin of "being in the same room as him and being sociable" since he was a teenager. Point of fact, the "anti-PUA website" was a site where people who failed at PUA went to and vented their frustrations about being failed PUA's.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:25
|
|
|
Lemming posted:What percentage of the murderers do you think are men? Because the problem is that men are murdering people, not that men are being unfairly targeted for getting murdered because of misandry, which is what you're asserting. I'm not asserting that at all. Most murderers are men. If someone comes into my home and murders me and my family, should people be any less outraged if the murderer has a penis? It seems like your conclusion is that somehow a murder is more just if the perpetrator and victim both have the same genitals. I personally disagree with that.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:25
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:It seems like your conclusion is that somehow a murder is more just if the perpetrator and victim both have the same genitals. I personally disagree with that. Maybe it's not the genitals of the perpetrator, but whether or not the genitals of the victim were a motivating factor. 
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:27
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:I'm not asserting that at all. Most murderers are men. If someone comes into my home and murders me and my family, should people be any less outraged if the murderer has a penis? EasternBronze posted:I am being ironic. Lid ditched the thread after I showed him around 80% of worldwide homicide victims are men. Of course, maybe those men weren't killed because of misandry so they probably don't count or something. You just sarcastically implied that it was. And my point is that the statistic that men are more likely to get murdered isn't the sort of smoking gun of "sexism isn't real see" that you keep pushing it as. If you actually dug into the statistics, the majority of men are murdered by strangers or acquaintances, and the majority of women are killed by spouses or relatives. You can't just poo poo out a number without giving the context because it's meaningless. In this case, you keep pushing this narrative: EasternBronze posted:Are we going to concede that you are incredibly wrong about a very basic fact which is an important part of your beliefs or are we just going to admit that women victims are far more important than male victims of violence? The point is that the causes for the murders are different and that's why throwing it out as a random statistic is meaningless. Nobody is saying it's better for a man to die than a woman, that's clearly bullshit you're trying to muddy the waters with, but just because more men die than women doesn't mean that sexism isn't real.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:31
|
|
|
copper rose petal posted:Maybe it's not the genitals of the perpetrator, but whether or not the genitals of the victim were a motivating factor. Tell me, how many male homicides are equal in your eyes to a female one (due to misogyny.) Lemming posted:You just sarcastically implied that it was. Sexism is real but that doesn't mean that in every single possible scenario women are worse off. Society is pushing men to their death at a far higher rate than women, whatever you want to call that, patriarchy, murder culture or whatever, thats a basic fact. I don't see what is so hard about this. Will your Feminist card get revoked if you admit that, yes, men are far more likely to be victim of fatal violence than women? EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 21:34 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:31
|
|
|
LaughMyselfTo posted:It's not really revenge against the dead guy. It's prevention for the next one. Frankly, as someone who craves attention, as many people do, it hurts me to know that the fast and easy track to getting it is killing a bunch of people in the name of whatever I want people to be talking about. And I'm sure there are other people out there who decide to actually go through with it. The idea of a mass shooting out there spurs on other mass shooters in and of itself, and the idea that it's a way to have attention paid to you massively contributes to the process. That video a few pages back explained that it's harmful for the media to obsess over the killer's name and face. Frankly, my writing is just as much a part of my identity as my name and my face. I think historically the evidence is not in your favor. For instance, the right-wing militia movement took a huge blow after Oklahoma City specifically because we did not ignore the horrific results of that ideology (when combined with a guy who obviously wasn't in a normal state). Despite the concern trolling/outright sexism from MRAs like EasternBronze, I sincerely doubt that anyone is going to see the reaction to this and go "yes, that's how I want my ideas to be treated". And if they can't make that basic calculus, then I have a hard time believing that they're not going to do something horrible either way.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:32
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:Tell me, how many male homicides are equal in your eyes to a female one (due to misogyny.) I said a motivating factor, as in, motivating the violence because the victim is female vs. the victim being male as a motivating factor.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:32
|
|
|
Big nerd Arthur Chu wrote an article about how familiar the shooter's rhetoric was. The first part mostly deals with the "nerd beats jocks and gets the girl he deserves" trope, which Elliot Rodger constantly complained about not happening in real life. The second part deals with real life:quote:I’ve heard it from acquaintances, I’ve heard it from friends. I’ve heard it come out of my own mouth, in moments of anger and weakness.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:32
|
|
|
LaughMyselfTo posted:It's not really revenge against the dead guy. It's prevention for the next one. Frankly, as someone who craves attention, as many people do, it hurts me to know that the fast and easy track to getting it is killing a bunch of people in the name of whatever I want people to be talking about. And I'm sure there are other people out there who decide to actually go through with it. The idea of a mass shooting out there spurs on other mass shooters in and of itself, and the idea that it's a way to have attention paid to you massively contributes to the process. That video a few pages back explained that it's harmful for the media to obsess over the killer's name and face. Frankly, my writing is just as much a part of my identity as my name and my face. Dude, if we on the noted Internet Comedy Webpage Somethingawful forums stop talking about the dude's writing it's going to mean somewhere between jack and poo poo for whether there's gonna be copycats or not. You can thank mass media making a spectacle out of a tragedy for that. On the other hand, discussing this poo poo on a rational and adult level might lead to people realizing what horrible and toxic bullshit the MRA movement produces, and thus it might even help a bit by discrediting their ideology and echo chambers, or at least it might help in identifying the warning signs for the next potential killer beforehand.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:32
|
|
|
Are there any feminists who believe that things like this are caused by testosterone more so than culture like myself?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:33
|
|
|
Soviet Space Dog posted:You have people here claiming Elliot was spending hours a day on MRA websites. In his manifesto he had more words about how he was driven off World of Warcraft because now it was full of stupid normies who use "virgin" as an insult, than about reading the anti-PUA website. He was having violent fantasies about torturing people who did the evil sin of "being in the same room as him and being sociable" since he was a teenager. Sure but you see focusing on his obvious mental health problems is problematic because it doesn't allow us to make sweeping critiques of men or whites or preferably white men, or cry hot tears about the plight of women and lament the horrors of patriarchy. edit: Clearly the FBI should be monitoring guys who wear ridiculous clothes and fail at picking up women with bad lines poorly recited because these men are ticking time bombs. wateroverfire fucked around with this message at 21:38 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:35
|
|
|
EA Sports posted:Are there any feminists who believe that things like this are caused by testosterone more so than culture like myself?  is a poo poo argument for anything regarding gender relations. I'm sure you can find a feminist who thinks this, they are just an idiot for thinking it.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:37
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Sure but you see focusing on his obvious mental health problems is problematic because it doesn't allow us to make sweeping critiques of men or whites or preferably white men, or cry hot tears about the plight of women and lament the horrors of patriarchy. 
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:38
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:Sexism is real but that doesn't mean that in every single possible scenario women are worse off. Society is pushing men to their death at a far higher rate than women, whatever you want to call that, patriarchy, murder culture or whatever, thats a basic fact. I don't see what is so hard about this. Will your Feminist card get revoked if you admit that, yes, men are far more likely to be victim of fatal violence than women? Yeah, it's obviously a fact. One guy said it wasn't and then you posted some numbers. Nobody reasonable is denying it. Can you point to anybody but that one guy who said it wasn't the case, and anybody at all once you posted that link? The point that in a conversation about the role of misogyny in this guy's murder spree you keep bringing up "what about men huh" "WELL WHAT ABOUT MEN HUH I HAVE THIS THING THAT SAYS BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO MEN TOO" is irrelevant. It's taking up space and attention that would be better spent discussing the actual topic, and you seem to be doing anything you can to change the subject and throw random bullshit that doesn't matter into the mix to stop that conversation.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:39
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Sure but you see focusing on his obvious mental health problems is problematic because it doesn't allow us to make sweeping critiques of men or whites or preferably white men, or cry hot tears about the plight of women and lament the horrors of patriarchy. Is this thread a secret honeypot for people with lovely opinions? What exactly is so threatening about discussing violence against women rather than dismissing it as hysterics?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:39
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:I'm not sure what you're basing this on, maybe the fact that I think a mentally ill man latching on the some absurd fantasies and than killing a bunch of people doesn't really say anything important about our society? Well, mostly the fact that you're evidently a big fan of his ideology. EA Sports posted:Are there any feminists who believe that things like this are caused by testosterone more so than culture like myself? I'm sure you can find some feminist who believes that, but I think it would be criticized very heavily by the mainstream of the movement. Biotruths is generally not big with feminists, for obvious reasons.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:40
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Clearly the FBI should be monitoring guys who wear ridiculous clothes and fail at picking up women with bad lines poorly recited because these men are ticking time bombs. Well actually they should be monitoring the guys who self identify as "incels" because that level of conspiracy thinking is really dangerous
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:40
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:Is this thread a secret honeypot for people with lovely opinions? Yes But it's the feminists that have the lovely opinions.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:41
|
|
|
Soviet Space Dog posted:Well actually they should be monitoring the guys who self identify as "incels" because that level of conspiracy thinking is really dangerous Glenn Greenwald will reveal the NSA did this exactly.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:41
|
|
|
rkajdi posted:
Well it has demonstrable effects that certainly cause a decrease in personal relations with an increase in interest in women. If you want to discuss how to change misogynist attitudes it would be foolish not to take it into account.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:42
|
|
|
EA Sports posted:Well it has demonstrable effects Does it? Can you prove it?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:43
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:Is this thread a secret honeypot for people with lovely opinions? It's like the old reddit thread. It's fine to make fun of racists/fundies/conservatives on the forums since they aren't similar to the average poster. This crosses the line for some people because they are similar to this MRA moron (i.e. are socially awkward as hell and can't get any/reliable sex) so have unwarranted sympathy for them. The fact the SA is pretty steeped in geek culture, with all it's pathetic sexist entitlement, is also a big factor.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:53
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Clearly the FBI should be monitoring guys who wear ridiculous clothes and fail at picking up women with bad lines poorly recited because these men are ticking time bombs. Anyone saying there's not an ideology associated with men's extremist groups is ignorant, or lying. For example, how do they react to divorce settlements they don't like? quote:So boys, we need to start burning down police stations and courthouses. … the dirty deeds are being carried out by our local police, prosecutors and judges. These are the people we pay good money to protect us and our families. And what do we get for our tax money? Collaborators who are no different than the Vichy of France or the Quislings of Norway during the Second World War. All because they go along to get along. They are an embarrassment, the whole lot of them. And they need to be held accountable. So burn them out. The guy who wrote this later set himself on fire on the courthouse steps. But not all of them refrained from killing others: quote:On Monday morning, the father of a man due in court for a child support hearing pulled out a semiautomatic handgun and shot his son’s ex wife and a friend of hers as they entered the lobby of the New Castle County Courthouse in Wilmington Delaware. After an exchange of gunfire with police that left two officers wounded, 68-year old Thomas Matusiewicz took his own life. The two women Matusiewcz shot were pronounced dead on arrival at a local hospital. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 21:57 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:54
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:Does it? Can you prove it? Women who take testosterone become less trusting and social as well as gaining increased interest in sexual relationships. EA Sports fucked around with this message at 22:00 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:55
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:Does it? Can you prove it? 'Can you prove' it is about as lazy as you can get in any sort of argument. Just because you are ignorant of scientific research in this field doesn't mean it doesn't exist: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...ved=0CCQQgQMwAA
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:56
|
|
|
If ive said anything good about mras or whatever youre imagining Id appreciate you quoting me.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 21:58
|
|
|
EA Sports posted:Well it has demonstrable effects that certainly cause a decrease in personal relations with an increase in interest in women. If you want to discuss how to change misogynist attitudes it would be foolish not to take it into account. Assuming you're actually arguing in good faith (a pretty dangerous assumption) the biotruth angle is a poor one because it allows for the creation of just-so stories. Meaning that people start assoicating the chemicals with the way society turned out, instead of the much simpler "powerful gently caress the weak" that fits with everything else in human history while also being morally undefendable. That naturalistic fallacy is a strong one because most people are poorly educated in the sciences and assume that we shouldn't interfere with "natural" actions, when there is not and never has been such a thing. Testosterone also generally increases sex drive, not drive towards women solely, so I'm not sure it's even a path worth looking down. rkajdi fucked around with this message at 22:04 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 22:01
|
|
|
EA Sports posted:Women who take testosterone become less trusting and social as well as gaining increased interest in sexual relationships. It doesn't seem like any of these effects are "mass murder". What's your evidence for the idea that testosterone level is a major factor in spree killing? EasternBronze posted:If ive said anything good about mras or whatever youre imagining Id appreciate you quoting me. *gets mad about people using the Trayvon Martin murder to "score points" against racism* *posts nothing but whines about affirmative action and sarcastic criticism of civil rights groups* If ive said anything good about stormfront or whatever youre imagining Id appreciate you quoting me.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 07:43 |
|
|
rkajdi posted:Testosterone also generally increases sex drive, not drive towards women solely, so I'm not sure it's even a path worth looking down. I can certainly see an increase in sex drive being an issue when you lack a partner to mitigate it. What I really seem to be saying here is; We need to destigmatize masterbation. Not that this would help with the raging misogyny or mental health aspects of the aforementioned spree shooter.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 22:16
|
|