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aBagorn posted:So you're saying that ending the blockade and allowing Gaza to be sovereign would result in Gaza being able to equip better weapons that would actually be effective in defending its sovereignty? Defending its sovereignty is a thing, waging war of aggression on another country is another. Revenge isn't an accepted reason for war.
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Jul 15, 2014 23:07
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Vermain posted:I would argue that it is (or, at the least, is an option that should be on the table) when faced with a hostile power that backs up its settlement efforts militarily. The launching of qassams is one of the few active forms of resistance that the Palestinians can leverage to try and reach a more even agreement with regards to the future of their state. But I guess to go back to my other question, what's the point. I think it's silly to argue Hamas or Palestinians are in a better position as a result of continued rocket attacks. Israel's not bargaining, they're bombing. BetterToRuleInHell posted:OK? Does that mean that they are embedding themselves among civilian populated centers? It means Hamas is located in population centers because it's a tiny area GrumpyDoctor posted:Gaza has a higher population density than Washington, D.C. Ah yes, the famously dense Washington D.C.
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Jul 15, 2014 23:07
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HootTheOwl posted:The people being attacked? The death of a pet dog can be traumatic to an individual the death is not very important in the big picture.
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Jul 15, 2014 23:08
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Xandu posted:edit: This is basically their thinking This is a standard line of crap amongst Israel apologists which falls apart when you ask the question "why AREN'T other countries' civilian population subjected to terrorist rocket fire?"
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Jul 15, 2014 23:08
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:There are two points I'm curious about concerning Hamas' use of rockets and what is commonly accepted about them: Most rockets fired from Gaza aren't striking populated areas by virtue of being made out of drainpipes and driven by fermented piss. They kinda go somewhere in the general direction of away, but hitting any kind of target is entirely up to luck. As for question number two, technically yes. However, the members of Hamas are living in Gaza. Where else would they be?
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Jul 15, 2014 23:09
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This is a standard line of crap amongst Israel apologists which falls apart when you ask the question "why AREN'T other countries' civilian population subjected to terrorist rocket fire?" [/quote] I didn't say it was a good justification, but I do think it does a pretty good job of representing Israeli thinking on the matter.
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Jul 15, 2014 23:09
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Tezzor posted:This is a standard line of crap amongst Israel apologists which falls apart when you ask the question "why AREN'T other countries' civilian population subjected to terrorist rocket fire?" Antisemitism? I mean that's their response.
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Jul 15, 2014 23:10
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Nah, it's more like "We're surrounded by a sea of violent
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Jul 15, 2014 23:11
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Xandu posted:But I guess to go back to my other question, what's the point. I think it's silly to argue Hamas or Palestinians are in a better position as a result of continued rocket attacks. Israel's not bargaining, they're bombing. Well, Hamas as an organization is in a better position. Just sitting and doing nothing in face of Israel's actions would end Hamas as an political organization because its claim to legitimacy has always rested on them being the only ones that actually stand up to Israel, unlike collaborationists like Fatah.
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Jul 15, 2014 23:14
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Xandu posted:But I guess to go back to my other question, what's the point. I think it's silly to argue Hamas or Palestinians are in a better position as a result of continued rocket attacks. Israel's not bargaining, they're bombing. Would they be better off without launching qassams? The grisly spectacle, at the least, focuses the attention of the world on Palestine and the continuing conflict. One can easily imagine a world free of Palestinian rockets where the settlement continues unabated with only the occasional brief story in the global press about a protester chaining themselves to a bulldozer. I don't wish to claim to be an oracle who can say that launching qassams is the best possible strategic option, but that there is a strategic value in doing so.
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Jul 15, 2014 23:14
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Speaking of which, Abbas is probably losing legitimacy in the eyes of the Palestinian public as this goes on. I have to figure he's pretty close to saying "gently caress it" and retiring at this point. Once that happens, I'm not sure what happens to Fatah.
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Jul 15, 2014 23:15
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Xandu posted:Ah yes, the famously dense Washington D.C. A population density of roughly ~12,240 per square mile, or ~4,726 per square kilometer is pretty dense. (in Gaza Strip, DC is something like 10,000 per square mile) e: and of course air strikes in urban centers, you're looking at a far greater density there. Gaza City as of 2009: 9,982.69/km˛ 26,424.76/mi˛. hobotrashcanfires fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 15, 2014 23:16
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from a norwegian source in gaza, they are now in process of bombing roads in north, east and south.
BernieLomax fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 15, 2014 23:34
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Cerebral Bore posted:This has nothing to do with your earlier question, you know. Please stay on topic. Which is different than one side being unable to stop because it legitimizes the other side's attempted war crime because....? Am I not wording this correctly? Both sides are using the same argument against deescalation but this thread only accepts the one from Hamas. quote:Also Israel is literally committing war crimes every second of the day, so you could literally use the exact same argument that you're pushing here but with the roles reversed and ask why Hamas should stop shooting rockets, because that would be giving in to Israel and legitimizing the bombing of Gaza. Needless to say, this isn't a very productive approach. euphronius posted:You are changing scope. You're the one who asks and I'm changing the scope because I answered?
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Jul 15, 2014 23:35
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That's why I don't like appealing to international norms about war crimes here; it's too easy for arguments about hypocrisy to distract. I think it's clearer to focus on the fact that Israel, right now, has power to stop the violence (specifically including structural violence) that nobody in Gaza does.
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Jul 15, 2014 23:44
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HootTheOwl posted:It has everything to do with it. One side can't stop because it legitimizes the other side's war crime. It's because Israel literally holds all the cards and have been offered all that they've ever asked for and more, and yet they still won't make peace. What Hamas does or doesn't do has been proven to be largely irrelevant to the peace process.
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Jul 15, 2014 23:45
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Cat Mattress posted:Defending its sovereignty is a thing, waging war of aggression on another country is another. Revenge isn't an accepted reason for war. I fundamentally disagree that the rocket attacks constitute a war of aggression. And again, if Israel had (legitimate) reason to fear Gaza's offensive capabilities, perhaps they wouldn't be so indiscriminate in their war crimes
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Jul 15, 2014 23:50
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hobotrashcanfires posted:A population density of roughly ~12,240 per square mile, or ~4,726 per square kilometer is pretty dense. (in Gaza Strip, DC is something like 10,000 per square mile) Washington DC isn't even in the Top 10 of densest metro areas in the US.
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Jul 16, 2014 00:30
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Ok, I apologize for using Washington, D.C. originally, because it's turned out to be more of a distraction than it was worth. I was originally trying to make the point that it is dense enough that there aren't really any places you can be that aren't near civilians, not that Gaza is a WH40K hive city. I picked D.C. because I'd seen the comparison made somewhere else so it was at the top of my head.
raminasi fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 00:33
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You could say the use of DC as an example was dense.
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Jul 16, 2014 00:41
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Jul 16, 2014 00:48
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aBagorn posted:I fundamentally disagree that the rocket attacks constitute a war of aggression.
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Jul 16, 2014 01:17
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Baloogan posted:You could say the use of DC as an example was dense. You could say that pun was a violation of human rights and a war crime. 
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Jul 16, 2014 01:23
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Mo_Steel posted:You could say that pun was a violation of human rights and a war crime. Israeli bad joke right?
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Jul 16, 2014 02:02
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Trabisnikof posted:Israeli bad joke right? Known for bombing on stage, or anywhere really.
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Jul 16, 2014 02:55
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JeffersonClay posted:Part of the reason rocket attacks are de minimis is because Hamas primarily uses lovely homemade qassam rockets, and very few military-grade rockets like Grads and M-302s. The reason Hamas uses lovely homemade rockets is due to the difficulty in smuggling Grads and M-302s into Gaza. Abandoning the gaza blockade would allow Hamas to use significantly more rockets that cause real damage. Thus it seems like a bad idea for Israel to lift the blockade on Gaza without assurances from Hamas that they'll control rocket attacks.
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Jul 16, 2014 03:08
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Hey you know that hospital that got bombed a couple days ago? Well they just got a phone call. Israel telling them to evacuate.
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Jul 16, 2014 03:40
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I have a question for Senjuro and Xander (and any other Israelis participating here, particularly of a moderate or leftist stance) Beyond the injustices of the situation itself, one of the things that has always made me really uncomfortable about Israel's actions in my lifetime is the way Israel's PR efforts tie Israeli identity to Jewish identity. I always feel like that means that in people's perceptions I am going to be held responsible for things Israel does that I abhor, even if I specifically reject those actions; that by tying Israeli identity to Jewish identity in the world, they are causing harm to Jews that have nothing to do with Israel. Like, I feel like Israel's actions and the perception of them in the world are meaningfully increasing the amount of real antisemitism in the world, in ways that might in the future make my life less safe in meaningful ways, particularly if I travel more now that I am done with school. Do you guys have any perspective on something like that from over there, or feel at all similarly?
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Jul 16, 2014 03:41
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Volkerball posted:Hey you know that hospital that got bombed a couple days ago? Well they just got a phone call. Israel telling them to evacuate. A little late on that.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:04
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Xandu posted:But I guess to go back to my other question, what's the point. I think it's silly to argue Hamas or Palestinians are in a better position as a result of continued rocket attacks. Israel's not bargaining, they're bombing.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:22
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aBagorn posted:I fundamentally disagree that the rocket attacks constitute a war of aggression. This was in response to a hypothetical scenario where Israel would stop oppressing what's left of Palestine.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:26
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Volkerball posted:Hey you know that hospital that got bombed a couple days ago? Well they just got a phone call. Israel telling them to evacuate. It must've been Joe Biden.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:28
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Elotana posted:Where are the rocket attacks from the West Bank? Fatah isn't launching any? Some militia they may associate with have been, to little effect. ANIME AKBAR posted:You have to keep in mind that HAMAS got where it was by being the most credible resistance movement in Palestine. Their role in the second intifada contributed greatly to their victory in the 2007 elections. Even if their attacks aren't very effective, many Palestinians seem to (or at least used to) prefer that to to Fatah's corruption and appeasement. If HAMAS were to renounce violence, then they would probably lose popular support. The only real difference between HAMAS and Likud is that Likud has all the power of Western hegemony behind their schemes.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:36
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JeffersonClay posted:Fatah isn't launching any? That was their point.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:47
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JeffersonClay posted:Fatah isn't launching any? Some militia they may associate with have been, to little effect. Elotana fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 05:05
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The partisan gap on support for Israel is larger than it's ever been. Republican Jewish Coalition posted:The Pew poll found that among conservative and moderate Republicans, sympathy for Israel was at 77% and 64%. Among moderate and liberal Democrats, that sympathy was at 48% and 39%. ...For years, public opinion polls have documented the large gap in support for Israel between Republicans and Democrats, with Republicans being far more supportive of Israel. This poll shows a gap of 27 points. At the very moment that Israel is under attack, with over 1000 rockets launched against her in the last 8 days, fewer than half of the Democrats polled say they have more sympathy for Israel than for the Palestinians. It is a sad and sobering confirmation of the Democrat Party’s shift over time away from support of Israel, especially at its grassroots. If support for Israel ceases to be bipartisan, the U.S.-Israel relationship – which is of so much benefit to both countries - will suffer. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 05:12
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Lum_ posted:MK/Deputy Knesset Speaker Moshe Feiglin's very reasonable war plan for Gaza. In case you were wondering what exists to the right of Netanyahu. The comments on this article are a better pro Palestine argument than anything I could ever come up with.
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Jul 16, 2014 05:21
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What would happen if the rocket attacks were treated like criminal acts to be investigated and prosecuted instead of like a militant act?
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Jul 16, 2014 05:35
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:The comments on this article are a better pro Palestine argument than anything I could ever come up with. A recent Mother Jones article has brought the idea of conservatism being associated with a inborn negativity bias back in vogue, at least for a few days. Someone should use those comments as a basis for research in empathy, or in this case, lack thereof.
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Jul 16, 2014 05:39
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Good, some Democrats may now realize that they'll be tarred as anti-Semite terrorist appeasers no matter what they say about Israel, so they might as well say the truth. Gen-X liberals like Cenk "Friendly Oaf" Uygur are good for something after all.
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Jul 16, 2014 05:40
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