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Entropia posted:hell i wouldn't know, but im guessing bureacratic insanity might have something to do with it. of course, it's not all that, i fully admit that israel is waging economic warfare on gaza, and putting pressure on hamas by embargoing anything that might increase their ability to fight. just like the west embargoed the axis. it's war man. Has Palestine started actively mass-starving Israeli children? If not, then maybe one side is, in fact, the baddie.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:02
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Just gonna post this joke from earlier because seriously, it is uncanny.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:06
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Entropia posted:saying that israel has no right to exist is just as repulsive and disgusting as saying that israel should occupy the whole of palestine and drive the natives away. these people have lived here for generations, half of them as descendants of jews that arab countries themselves expulsed from their territories after gaining independence from the hated colonialists Woah, protecting are we? Unless you feel that being a racist, colonial, genocidal state is a fundamental part of what Israel then it's entirely possible to destroy those elements without wiping Israel from the face of the Earth.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:11
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Ddraig posted:Woah, protecting are we? Unless you feel that being a racist, colonial, genocidal state is a fundamental part of what Israel then it's entirely possible to destroy those elements without wiping Israel from the face of the Earth. And again, it's perfectly OK to believe that a state should be wiped from the face of the earth. The DPRK, for example, should be wiped from the face of the earth and replaced with a better state. However, no residents living within the borders of the DPRK should be displaced.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:13
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The killing of the four children was really, really horrible. This from a journalist on the scene:
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Jul 16, 2014 16:24
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More from Beaumont, who was on the scene and provided first aid to some of the child not immediately killed.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/16/witness-gaza-shelling-first-hand-account?CMP=twt_gu posted:The retaining wall of Gaza's harbour sticks out into the Mediterranean about 100 metres from the terrace of al-Deira hotel, base to many of the journalists covering the conflict in Gaza. The first of the artillery shells came in a little after 4pm on Wednesday as I was writing on the hotel's terrace.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:26
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Entropia posted:after all, hamas has and continues to employ suicide attacks against civilians, and there isn't really any sort of defense that israel has against them except to wall off all potential attackers. it is heartless and cruel, but it does evidently work. Okay. It does evidently work because the conflict has been ongoing for a century and shows no sign of stopping. Meanwhile, let's look at the situation of other independence movements in modern western countries.
How many of these countries have used giant walls, blockades, and air strikes? Is separatist terrorism still an everyday occurrence in UK, Spain, or France? Would you say Israel's approach has been more successful against Palestinian movements than European approach to IRA/ETA/FLNC/etc.?
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Jul 16, 2014 16:31
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Cat Mattress posted:[*]Scottish (UK)  Gotta keep out those northern barbarians.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:34
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France has done worse to the Corsicans than what Israel is doing to the Palestinians: it rounded them all up, and put them on an island. Isn't that textbook apartheid?
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Jul 16, 2014 16:34
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Entropia posted:saying that israel has no right to exist is just as repulsive and disgusting as saying that israel should occupy the whole of palestine and drive the natives away. these people have lived here for generations, half of them as descendants of jews that arab countries themselves expulsed from their territories after gaining independence from the hated colonialists Ethnically pure "homelands" shouldn't exist. I'm not sure why that is so conversational in 2014.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:41
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Well, they were first offered parts of Uganda, but that just wasn't holy enough for them. By the way, my sacred city is Dubai, and I hereby comission the UN and british troops to protect my claim.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:43
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ekeog posted:More from Beaumont, who was on the scene and provided first aid to some of the child not immediately killed. Clearly they were hiding sand missiles in sand castles.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:45
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28320901quote:Israel has urged thousands of people in east and north Gaza to leave their homes as it continues air strikes.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:47
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Imagine the outrage if Hamas told Israelis to evacuate their cities because of the rockets. When Israel does it, its for humanitarian reasons.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:47
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Radish posted:
As far as I'm aware that hasn't been used to hold back the hordes since the Roman occupation, and even then there's some debate about this. There are far more contentious things that England has done to Scotland, Wales and Ireland, like flooding an entire village for industrial purposes but we managed to work it out like human beings rather than animals. For the most part.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:53
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Warning is better than no warning but "yo leave everything you own and hold dear because we're about to destroy it." is pretty lovely. The worst example was the warning the IDF gave to the center for disabled people. If the reports are true, they gave it far too late to realistically evacuate a place that had people with physical and mental disabilities.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:54
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Roman limes walls were more for tax collection than anything.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:55
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Cat Mattress posted:[*]Irish (UK) The 1960s UK government toyed with an idea of driving out all the Catholics out of the rich part of Northern Ireland and build a wall at the border. But thought it was stupid as hell in the end. In the later Troubles era, the UK also exhibited modern Israeli behaviour of patrolling around and kicking the poo poo out of anyone they wanted.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:56
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Has anyone compared Israel to Aztlan yet because if not I want to be the first. Hispanics are just reemimgrating to their holy land.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:57
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I'm convinced Hellbeard is under strict Internet surveillance where he's unable to criticize the government lest he be punished.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:15
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happyhippy posted:The 1960s UK government toyed with an idea of driving out all the Catholics out of the rich part of Northern Ireland and build a wall at the border. Whilst the British were kicking the poo poo out of people, the IRA were busy disappearing mothers of ten and the republicans and loyalists both were generally terrorising their own communities with kneecappings, banishments and executions. Let's not pretend there were goodies and baddies during the Troubles. But you know what brought it to an end? Sitting down together and having honest negotiations.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:16
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Cat Mattress posted:Okay. It does evidently work because the conflict has been ongoing for a century and shows no sign of stopping. [*]Algeria (France)  But needless to say, the Israel approach did not work. France was a legit apartheid state then.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:21
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Yeah I was arguing about this with my mom last night and "Israel warns people to abandon their homes ahead of time" was used as a major selling point for why they are the good guys despite blowing up civilian buildings. Like seriously, this is a woman for whom Obama saying kids shouldn't eat pizza for every meal is tyranny, I'd love to see her reaction to being told "We're going to blow up your neighborhood, you have a few hours to get out. We might kill you anyway." And the fact that Israel has killed hundreds of civilians is horrifically being used as a point in Israel's favor, because it shows that Hamas is using civilians as human shields. Like literally innocent people dying from Israeli attacks prove that Israel is doing the right thing. Israeli propganda is really effective I guess.
Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 17:25
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Hamas troops should form up rank and file and march to the barbed wire.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:26
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HortonNash posted:Whilst the British were kicking the poo poo out of people, the IRA were busy disappearing mothers of ten and the republicans and loyalists both were generally terrorising their own communities with kneecappings, banishments and executions. Let's not pretend there were goodies and baddies during the Troubles. But you know what brought it to an end? Sitting down together and having honest negotiations. South Africa also continues to exist even after lifting their apartheid policies, so if that's the result of lifting apartheid, Israel should totally lift it, since, hey, Israel won't stop existing! It's okay guys, you can change your ways and apologize and people will by and large forgive you! Those who don't? Well, if they go commit crimes because of it you go arrest them like you would in any civilized country.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:27
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Yeah. The IRA, ETA, etc. all stopped their terror campaigns after negotiations, not by implementing apartheid policies on Northern Ireland and Basque Country. Except Israel can't lift its apartheid policies because it they do the Arabs are going to wipe them out, much like the blacks wiped out the whites in South Africa.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:33
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ChikoDemono posted:I'm convinced Hellbeard is under strict Internet surveillance where he's unable to criticize the government lest he be punished. A fully inculcated authoritarian mindset is better than any surveillance.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:33
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I just don't understand what the pro-Israeli side is expecting from this. We've seen this show before. All that is going to happen is a lot of civilians die and new people become radicalized as a de facto ghetto becomes even shittier. Besides a final solution to the Palestinian question, which would end irony forever, what the gently caress is the point here?
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Jul 16, 2014 17:37
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This mess could have been avoided a long time ago if people followed the old 'do unto others' of their precious religions. Talmud, Shabbat 31a, the "Great Principle posted:That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn it.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:39
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I really do wonder at this point if Israel fully deployed it's military, and started deliberately exterminating all Palestinians while saying it was for 'self-defense', would anything be different? I mean how many kids have died the last two weeks of this for no reason?
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Jul 16, 2014 17:42
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For all the talk about Israel being the jewsih homeland and whatever, here's a documentary on the politicization of Archeology in Israel/Palestine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NY0JF9VBQ8 tl;dw : Israel tries to make traces of Palestinian history disappear.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:43
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Bishop posted:I just don't understand what the pro-Israeli side is expecting from this. We've seen this show before. All that is going to happen is a lot of civilians die and new people become radicalized as a de facto ghetto becomes even shittier. Besides a final solution to the Palestinian question, which would end irony forever, what the gently caress is the point here? Hence why they negotiated the 'cease-fire' with Fatah, not Hamas. But it remains to be seen if Israel can actually break it, since apparently the latest chatter is that they're sticking with it, but with the conflict escalating who knows? There are Israeli politicians basically calling to remove Palestinians from Gaza (it's been posted in this thread but I can't find it), but I don't think it's actually on the table yet. But since Israel is the only party with a plan here, we'll see how well they can stick to their plan, or even what that plan is.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:43
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Shooting them with soldiers and guns and bullets is too expensive and risky. There has to be some other way. Also this is a good tweet Christopher Hayes @chrislhayes 9m To people telling me Hamas was using these children as human shields, reports indicate they were playing football on the beach.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:43
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FlamingLiberal posted:I really do wonder at this point if Israel fully deployed it's military, and started deliberately exterminating all Palestinians while saying it was for 'self-defense', would anything be different? I mean how many kids have died the last two weeks of this for no reason? Wouldn't work. You can't kill civilians in large numbers with ground troops and get away with it for any significant length of time. The pictures that leak out look way worse and are harder to explain away. So yeah, things would be quite a bit different. There'd still be lots of people supporting the action, though.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:46
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euphronius posted:Shooting them with soldiers and guns and bullets is too expensive and risky. There has to be some other way.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:47
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Bishop posted:I just don't understand what the pro-Israeli side is expecting from this. We've seen this show before. All that is going to happen is a lot of civilians die and new people become radicalized as a de facto ghetto becomes even shittier. Besides a final solution to the Palestinian question, which would end irony forever, what the gently caress is the point here? I don't understand the issues enough to say what Israel's point, but the "US citizens who are pro Israel" faction basically says "Israel has to do this because Hamas hates them and wants to destroy them.". There's no deeper level of thinking than that.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:49
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Good Citizen posted:Wouldn't work. You can't kill civilians in large numbers with ground troops and get away with it for any significant length of time. The pictures that leak out look way worse and are harder to explain away. So yeah, things would be quite a bit different. There'd still be lots of people supporting the action, though. Good Citizen posted:Wouldn't work. You can't kill civilians in large numbers with ground troops and get away with it for any significant length of time. The pictures that leak out look way worse and are harder to explain away. So yeah, things would be quite a bit different. There'd still be lots of people supporting the action, though.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:50
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Apparently hatred is genetic, the moment a Palestinian child is born he is filled with intense hatred for all Jews and especially Israeli Jews.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:51
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FlamingLiberal posted:I mean how many kids have died the last two weeks of this for no reason? Mohammed Ayman Ashour, 15, killed in Khan Younis Hussein Yousef Kawareh, 13, killed in Khan Younis Ahmed Moussa Habib, 16, killed in Gaza Ahmed Nael Mahdi, 16, killed in Gaza. Basil Salem Kawareh, 10, killed in Khan Younis Dunya Mahdi Hamad, 16, killed in Beit Hanoun Siraj Ayad Abdelal, 8, killed in Khan Younis Mohammed Arif, 13, killed in Gaza Mohammed Malake, 1½, killed in Gaza Mohammed Ibrahim al-Masri, 14, killed in Beit Hanoun Mohammed Khalaf al-Nawasra, 4, killed in al-Maghazi Nidal Khalaf al-Nawasra, 5, killed in al-Maghazi Salah Awad al-Nawasra, 6, killed in al-Maghazi Raneem Judeh Abdel Ghafour, 1½, killed in Khan Younis Mariam Atiah Mohammed al-Arja, 11 Saad Mahmoud al-Hajj, 17, killed in Khan Younis Fatima al-Hajj, 12, killed in Khan Younis Abdallah Ramadan Abu Ghazal, 5, killed in Beit Hanoun Yasmin Mohammed al-Mutwak, 4, killed in Beit Hanoun Bassam Abdel Rahman Khattab, 6, killed in Deir al-Balah Nour Marwan al-Najdi, 10, killed in Rafah Shahd al-Qreinawi, 7, killed in Al-Breij Anas Youssef Qandil, 17, killed in Jabalia Qassim Jabr Adwan Ouda, 16, killed Khan Younis Qusai Issam al-Batesh, 12, killed in Gaza Mohammed Issam al-Batesh, 17, killed in Gaza Manar Majed al-Batesh, 13, killed in Gaza Anas Alaa al-Batesh, 10, killed in Gaza Muayed al-Aaraj, 3, killed in Khan Younis Hussam Ibrahim al-Najjar, 14 Ziad Maher al-Najjar, 17, killed in Khan Younis Sara Omar Sheikh al-Eid, 4, killed in Rafah Kamal Atef Yousuf Abu Taha, 16, killed in Khan Younis Ibrahim Ramadan, 10, killed in Khan Younis Ahed Bakr, 10, Gaza beach Zakaria Bakr, 10, Gaza beach Mohammed Bakr, 11, Gaza beach Ismail Bakr, 9, Gaza beach So 40 give or take, depending on whether or not you want to count 18 year olds(I didn't).
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Jul 16, 2014 17:52
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Tender Bender posted:I don't understand the issues enough to say what Israel's point, but the "US citizens who are pro Israel" faction basically says "Israel has to do this because Hamas hates them and wants to destroy them.". There's no deeper level of thinking than that. We have Hellbeard in this very thread saying basically the same thing. "Hamas' leader once said he won't recognize Israel as a state, therefore we have to kill civilians as long as Hamas is around."
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