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Guys, guys, let's try to calm down a little. Be more chill. Be more owl. We're all on the same side here, trying to found a federation that'll stand the test of time.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:34
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Night10194 posted:Guys, guys, let's try to calm down a little. Be more chill. Be more owl. We're all on the same side here, trying to found a federation that'll stand the test of time. Indeed, which is why I'm very interested in getting to the bottom of the objections Comrade Gorgo has raised. If his words are accurate (and I see no reason to believe they're not,) the "Genocide Prevention Act" is a millstone around the neck of the Federation. The only question is if it's a deliberate or accidental one. vvv The side-effects of allowing our opponents to define us. A state of affairs that must be remedied post-haste.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:35
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^^ My guess, and I would like to think, is unintentional. As I detail below I think a fair amount of legislators have an unrealistic view of how much struggle, turmoil, and almost undoubtedly blood there will be required to forge a lasting Federation.A RICH WHITE MAN posted:i can't wait until the anti-genocide crowd realizes how loving annoying a few choice races are and flock to the banners of the hard right. This sentiment exactly. As I pointed out earlier this obsession with trying to build a Star Trek-esque Federation seems very naive and misguided. Having read other experienced people's accounts of how their own attempts have gone, we know that some, if not all (minus the Andorians), of the races have the capability and desire for genocide lurking right beneath the surface. I mean, hell, we know it's there because the Actuians and Evucks committed it! The Thoraxians are described as peerless killing machines! I think we are being very shortsighted if we don't plan or expect for at least one of the races to get wiped out by another. Remember we can only attempt to influence not directly control. As much as we would like for the races to not kill each other to some degree we can only sit back and make suggestions. In that vein, I don't understand why the Revengeance Party has been painted as pro-genocide. Yes, are we opposed to acts that benefit the Acutians and Evucks, but nowhere, at least in party line, have we suggested we want them wiped out. As has been pointed out our Justice Act is a very reasonable non-violent agenda which almost directly mirrors the Communist Intersolar. The Revengeance Party should also be called the Realist Party. Edit: Well, that certainly does make some implications change. It's nice to know military action doesn't have to equal genocide. tokyosexwale fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 23:36
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Something I should probably point out mechanics-wise is that not all conquest is genocide. The Acutians can wipe out races with planetcrackers and the Evucks by blowing up their own homeworld, but they only do those things if they're desperate. The Thoraxians are the only race that will always wipe out the inhabitants of planets they conquer, the others are happy enough to enslave/oppress/'civilize' their new minorities.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:37
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Wiz posted:Something I should probably point out mechanics-wise is that not all conquest is genocide. The Acutians can wipe out races with planetcrackers and the Evucks by blowing up their own homeworld, but they only do those things if they're desperate. The Thoraxians are the only race that will always wipe out the inhabitants of planets they conquer, the others are happy enough to enslave/oppress/'civilize' their new minorities. Oh thank goodness. I'd been getting the impression any battle to defeat would result in 'wiping out'!
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Jul 17, 2014 23:39
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Abstain from everything else.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:39
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Wiz posted:Something I should probably point out mechanics-wise is that not all conquest is genocide. The Acutians can wipe out races with planetcrackers and the Evucks by blowing up their own homeworld, but they only do those things if they're desperate. The Thoraxians are the only race that will always wipe out the inhabitants of planets they conquer, the others are happy enough to enslave/oppress/'civilize' their new minorities. Precisely this. The wording of the act is quite clear on the matter: The only uncrossable line is genocide. It is not a millstone around the Federation's neck, nor is it in any way designed to be.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:41
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AJ_Impy posted:Precisely this. The wording of the act is quite clear on the matter: The only uncrossable line is genocide. It is not a millstone around the Federation's neck, nor is it in any way designed to be. It's effectively a pre-emptive declaration of war on the Thoraxians should they choose to go to war, as well as encouraging us to defend the Evucks and Acutians lest they get nervous and blow up a planet. Hardly an entanglement-free bill.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:43
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Wiz posted:I'm imagining the Hydral finishing watching the finals, poking one head into the council chamber, and immediately backing out again before anyone notices. I had an idea for a comic-style page of a Congress-style chamber with the Hydral asleep on the speaker's podium while the entire chamber is erupting into chaos. If I had the skills to draw it, man... On that note, man, the Owls on Drugs and Lazy Assholes parties are looking more and more tempting. I mean, playing an angry AI sounded fun, and debating philosophy from that perspective with Impy earlier was fun (because Impy is a cool guy who can do that well), but trying to keep up with this is just getting stressful.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:44
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AJ_Impy posted:Precisely this. The wording of the act is quite clear on the matter: The only uncrossable line is genocide. It is not a millstone around the Federation's neck, nor is it in any way designed to be. Well, the meaning of 'wiped out' in your bill isn't completely clear as it could refer to either annexation or genocide. A clarification would be good.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:45
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^^^^ a-haaaaSamolety posted:I had an idea for a comic-style page of a Congress-style chamber with the Hydral asleep on the speaker's podium while the entire chamber is erupting into chaos. If I had the skills to draw it, man... I believe that things should cool off after this first session...the first one is always the hardest. I'm sure Visc would agree we'd hate to lose an active member like yourself.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:45
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sniper4625 posted:It's effectively a pre-emptive declaration of war on the Thoraxians should they choose to go to war, as well as encouraging us to defend the Evucks and Acutians lest they get nervous and blow up a planet. Hardly an entanglement-free bill. If the Thoraxians go to war, who do you think they will be attacking? The races that can destroy them if threatened, or the races whose capabilities are lacking? No-one said the Eightfold Unity would be easy. It isn't. But it is worth trying for.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:46
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tokyosexwale posted:In that vein, I don't understand why the Revengeance Party has been painted as pro-genocide. Yes, are we opposed to acts that benefit the Acutians and Evucks, but nowhere, at least in party line, have we suggested we want them wiped out. As has been pointed out our Justice Act is a very reasonable non-violent agenda which almost directly mirrors the Communist Intersolar. The Revengeance Party should also be called the Realist Party.  "Realists" who don't recognize that races that have shown such ingenuity can and will be of use? Fools! ANCAP was founded for one reason: to build a prosperous, capitalist society. One where every sentient has the chance to succeed, and where every imaginable commodity is sold. One where merit alone paves the way to greatness! In defeating the Hydral threat, the Acutians and Evucks have shown merit. They have saved every one of you from a lifetime of enslavement, and yet, none of you are grateful! ANCAP is pragmatic. We want a Federation of merchant-princes, of wealth beyond measure, and we will use any means to build it. And to see you fools refuse to even approach potential members as useful as the so-called genocides? It's unimaginable. It's ridiculous. It's wasteful!
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Jul 17, 2014 23:46
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Wiz posted:Well, the meaning of 'wiped out' in your bill isn't completely clear as it could refer to either annexation or genocide. A clarification would be good. I'll leave the precise interpretation in Harry's hands at his discretion.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:47
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sniper4625 posted:^^^^ a-haaaa I was feeling the same way trying to keep up with the thread between projects at work, but for what's it worth I would also like to extend a "stick it out, we need active members." Hopefully I can count myself the same.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:48
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If following the debate is stressful you can just wait until the vote closes and check the results, anyhow. Things will mellow out when there's more of what's happening in the game to focus on rather than ideological clashes over the Acutians/Evucks.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:51
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AJ_Impy posted:I'll leave the precise interpretation in Harry's hands at his discretion. Gorgo Primus posted:
I can't empty quote, but there isn't much more to add. Once a race is annexed it is out. You will never ever see it independent again, and as a result it can never join the Federation. That is why I read it as annexed when I repeatedly wrote about your bill. So... yeah, read those criticisms if you want to know why every intelligent communist and 'revengist' keeps calling out your bill out as the worst. An eight member Federation is impossible if even a single world is annexed, and that is your party's stated goal, so it doesn't surprise me that you'd have a bill that destroyed any chance of a Federation if you couldn't secure your way... still... Gorgo Primus fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 23:51
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One Turn Plan: Yes Justice Act of 3000: Yes Tryhard Galactic Standard of Living Bill: Yes Though I vote yes, I would lodge a formal complaint against this bill's requirement to aid the Acutians, however the bill's provision to send help to the Boarines during their time of need is laudable. The Andorian Elevation Act: No Peltian Quality of Life Act: Abstain No Aid to Terrorists Act: Yes Initial Galactic Stimulus Act: No Legislative Blitz: No Prevention of Genocide Act: No
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Jul 17, 2014 23:53
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AJ_Impy posted:If the Thoraxians go to war, who do you think they will be attacking? The races that can destroy them if threatened, or the races whose capabilities are lacking? No-one said the Eightfold Unity would be easy. It isn't. But it is worth trying for. You know what followed the same logic? The alliances and ententes that plunged Europe into World War I. You are basically agreeing to a system that could easily turn a conflict between two races into a solar system spanning chain of attacks and retributions.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:53
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Gorgo Primus posted:I can't empty quote, but there isn't much more to add. Once a race is annexed it is out. You will never ever see it independent again, and as a result it can never join the Federation. That is why I read it as annexed and/or genocided when I repeatedly wrote about your bill. So... yeah, read those criticisms if you want to know why every intelligent communist and 'revengist' keeps calling out your bill out as the worst. As an aside, the 'Revengists' really need a better name if they want people to not associate them with getting revenge at voting time.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:55
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AJ_Impy posted:I'll leave the precise interpretation in Harry's hands at his discretion. So first you argue for the bill with the implicit premise that any conquest is genocide (while in a party that would naturally enormously oppose any conquests), then you declare that the bill could not lead to overcommitment because it does not call for stopping all conquests, then when it is pointed out the bill is so poorly worded it could mean either you declare this was the intention! It is remarkable enough when a councilor holds one view and then an opposing one in quick succession, but to follow that with holding both is truly unprecedented. Surely, if the Eightfolds truly opposed genocide, they would propose the conquest of the Thoraxians, Acutians, and Evucks, so no way to genocide another race would be available. Instead, they place their own political agenda of an eight-member federation over such a concern - precisely what they have accused their opponents of doing!
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Jul 17, 2014 23:55
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tokyosexwale posted:You know what followed the same logic? The alliances and ententes that plunged Europe into World War I. You are basically agreeing to a system that could easily turn a conflict between two races into a solar system spanning chain of attacks and retributions. Please. Do you know how easy it is to do that, how many things could be the catalyst? It's a balancing act, and a difficult one. It is, however, fully possible.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:57
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^^ Precisely, since it is so easy we should be all the more cautious of a situation that leads us down that path, not starting out the gate with a act that binds us to making it almost a certainty!AJ_Impy posted:As an aside, the 'Revengists' really need a better name if they want people to not associate them with getting revenge at voting time. We really do. Might I suggest we officially consider changing the party name? Maybe the Vigilant Party or something similar?
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Jul 17, 2014 23:57
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tokyosexwale posted:We really do. Might I suggest we officially consider changing the party name? Maybe the Vigilant Party or something similar? Thirding this. Back when I joined I thought this was going to be the  party. But since that is not our official position (I'm okay with that too, being more nuanced can be fun), we should rename or this is going to keep happening.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:00
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Three and half hours left until vote closes. In the meanwhile, all Councillors who are tired of the debate are welcome to join Harry in the TV room. The Andorian Roboticists Network is showing Top Model.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:00
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Wiz posted:In the meanwhile, all Councillors who are tired of the debate are welcome to join Harry in the TV room. The Andorian Roboticists Network is showing Top Model. Do we get free soda?
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Jul 18, 2014 00:01
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We have a TV room!? Well hot drat, what have I been doing hanging out in here the whole time?
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Jul 18, 2014 00:02
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Samolety posted:Thirding this. Back when I joined I thought this was going to be the As much as I enjoy the name, I agree. Something to help us while away the time between session and update. The Justice Party, perhaps? Honorable Justice Party?
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Jul 18, 2014 00:03
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sniper4625 posted:It's effectively a pre-emptive declaration of war on the Thoraxians should they choose to go to war, as well as encouraging us to defend the Evucks and Acutians lest they get nervous and blow up a planet. Hardly an entanglement-free bill. And if the Thoraxians would genocide a species with any conquest, I'm 100% fine with the implications that we should probably stop them from conquering other people. Otherwise, Harry's mention that conquest doesn't mean genocide meshes with the assumptions that I, as a lay-robot with no special knowledge of the procedures of warfare, had assumed. I said not all war was genocidal war, and I was right. I find it quite offensive that you and your ilk have been pressing a false claim against the anti-genocide act so hysterically. You hadn't a leg to stand on and resorted to false arguments from authority. And as a result you've paved the way for a genocide-tolerant system. You accuse me of tearing this council apart for "political expediency" but you've proven yourself willing to tear apart the system and let billions of intelligent beings die for political expediency. Your hypocrisy damns your arguments into irrelevance.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:03
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Wiz posted:Three and half hours left until vote closes. Technically, any room I am 'in' is a TV room since I'm a robotic face on a TV scr- Oh nevermind. Woo! Top Model! Somebody wheel me in there! PS Justice Party and Vigilant Party both sound good.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:04
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Wiz posted:Three and half hours left until vote closes. Do you have any snacks?
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Jul 18, 2014 00:06
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I been in the TV room the whole time, haha. Anyway I don't think anyone else is going to accept my party's challenge, so I'll be making a choice shortly.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:10
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Wiz posted:Something I should probably point out mechanics-wise is that not all conquest is genocide. The Acutians can wipe out races with planetcrackers and the Evucks by blowing up their own homeworld, but they only do those things if they're desperate. The Thoraxians are the only race that will always wipe out the inhabitants of planets they conquer, the others are happy enough to enslave/oppress/'civilize' their new minorities. Ah, did not know that about the mechanics here. Was wondering why the text specified "woe" to those who get in a ground war with the Thoraxians. sniper4625 posted:There's still a good chunk of votes outstanding, enough to swing votes either way. I thought there was like 3 more hours? We're definitely in the winding down and slapfighting phase. And kind of hit that a few hours ago.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:14
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Sniper can we get an updated count I am too lazy to scroll back two or more pages to find the most recent one. Come on, do your job so I don't have to work.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:15
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I am not familiar with this 'Top Model'. I suppose I had best acclimate to this strange alien transmission. Anyone know if it has an entertainingly high body count?
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Jul 18, 2014 00:18
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Eiba posted:And if the Thoraxians would genocide a species with any conquest, I'm 100% fine with the implications that we should probably stop them from conquering other people. Really, would anyone miss them if We did something about the Burlusts or Acutians? This one cannot recommend an invasion of the Evucks, however. It has heard rumors that the Evuck homeworld's structural integrity may be less sound than one would expect.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:19
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Eiba posted:Otherwise, Harry's mention that conquest doesn't mean genocide meshes with the assumptions that I - Wiz posted:Well, the meaning of 'wiped out' in your bill isn't completely clear as it could refer to either annexation or genocide. Nope.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:21
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Cythereal posted:Really, would anyone miss them if We did something about the Burlusts or Acutians? This one cannot recommend an invasion of the Evucks, however. It has heard rumors that the Evuck homeworld's structural integrity may be less sound than one would expect. To clarify, if the Evucks live on a gas giant (they do in this game) and are at risk of being conquered, they'll sometimes try to blow up said gas giant, taking themselves out along with any nearby planets (in our case, probably the Boarines, Skylaxians and maybe the Andors). I know it can be stopped, but I haven't actually encountered this scenario in the game so I don't know how hard it is to stop.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:21
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Wiz posted:To clarify, if the Evucks live on a gas giant (they do in this game) and are at risk of being conquered, they'll sometimes try to blow up said gas giant, taking themselves out along with any nearby planets (in our case, probably the Boarines, Skylaxians and maybe the Andors). I know it can be stopped, but I haven't actually encountered this scenario in the game so I don't know how hard it is to stop. This is why we need an instruction to prevent genocide.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:25
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AJ_Impy posted:This is why we need an insruction to prevent genocide. Did you not hear anything I said. 
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Jul 18, 2014 00:26
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