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Juvenalian.Satyr posted:I honestly believed in your mission, and I will not tell you it is a fool's errand, because that besmirches what you -- we -- tried to accomplish. However, in this Council politics left the Boarines dying of plague in the very first session, where even an appeal to reason was denied outright due to shallow pretenses of "practicality." I am sorry to see you go, but I recognise your frustrations, and your desire for an easier, more straightforward path. I will continue down the hardest one for as long as is possible, for it is not in my nature to throw in the towel. We knew, going in, this would be difficult, and we heard full well the voices of opposition in this chamber. May you succeed in garnering support to form a party capable of forming legislation, for your species has been cruelly treated by many. We will stand with you where our interests coincide, but as long as the hardest path remains open, we will try to assay it, and will not accept legislation that opposes that.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:30
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Juvenalian.Satyr posted:I do not think we can change each other's minds, as we have differing principles, but I honestly believe a real dialogue can be had between the Council for a Strong Federation and the Solar Tigers. I'm not interested solely in talking about principle, but also matters of practicality. It is important that our democracy, such as it is, knows where we stand. I believe Impy mentioned working to bring in the Burlusts via the Skylaxians. That's a good idea, if not practical in the short run. Certainly something to follow up with in the long run. The Thoraxians should be approached, but the requirements for bringing them into the Federation were rather extreme, IIRC. Maybe we'll have to beat them up a bit, I dunno. Again, they should be brought in as possible, especially now that they seem to have gotten over their brief spell of aggression. The Evucks...well, should the Evucks cease their war against the Boarines, and work to balance the Acutian fleet (at our urging), I'd be a lot more open to them. I don't like them, but I like the Boarines more. We can see how it goes. The Acutians, should we bring together the rest, wouldn't be a problem. I will shed no tear for leaving out the techno-slaver warmongers and their ilk. I find it interesting the Eightfold Unity party is not vehemently rejecting the party calling for the outright extermination of species deemed unfit to survive in this new Federation of Fear, but I guess that's up to Impy.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:31
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AJ_Impy posted:A long and difficult one. We knew it would be the hardest path going in. It is, however, still feasible. Immediate concern is the Boarines: lose one race and that's it. If we manage to avert the current crisis in time, our path involves raising relations between the nations, using the Skylaxians to backdoor in the Burlusts as we cannot handle them directly. The rest will be a labour intensive path getting relations up to get the various races in, and clamping down on conflict and animosity before forever wars start flaring up. War is a major impediment to federation: Given time and the right buildings at the right places anyone can be roped in, but war left unfettered is a major problem in that regard. And do you think you can actually convince the other parties to for once cease their endless thirst to isolate the Acutians and the Evucks? Our party's proposal has to clean up the mess they make, while they're already writing the laws punishing the ANDOR for having the temerity to actually reach out in friendship? The Peeping Tom Act which allows pirates to raid us, the Tron Act which demands theft from Acutians and the Andors who helped them. And Revengeance and the Communist Intersolar have yet to make their proposals. History suggests they will not be kindly disposed to my people. The only outreach that they suggest to do is to manipulate is into another war, to weaken us. And not done with the intent to get us into the Federation. What concessions can we get? What guarantees that once we Evucks and Acutians have been 'made less dangerous' they won't simply finish us off? If our party is to use our legislation to save the Boarines, I'd like to see some proposals by the other parties that actually show SOME goodwill to get us in the Federation. Otherwise, I feel like I'm voting here, building for a Federation my race will never be part of.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:35
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I have been informed that we are relatively close to being able to form the Federation for Safety. I have added an instruction to do so to my bill, in line with stated party doctrine. Also removed the tech provision, as MOP-UP 2 has that covered.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:37
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Tomn posted:This seems a bit vague. How are we to clamp down on all conflict without either bankrupting ourselves or losing all ability to influence this or that race? I ask in all seriousness, not to prove a rhetorical point - your general plan seems reasonably sound, but the devil really is in the details here. It is vague because it requires a careful hand on the tiller, conflict by conflict, war by war, solution by solution. Blowing up a fleet here, bribing and cajoling warmongers into a better mindset, using peaceful arbitrators when affordable, not neglecting the Hydral's advancement to provide the wherewithal to manage all this. It is vague because the answers differ for each circumstance, and require vigilance and appropriate response, not designating one infallible course of action now and hoping for the best it survives that later reality. The devil is in the details, and the details are not fully seen from a distance. When we get closer, then we do what is necessary in the circumstance to steer the federation to its end goal. This path involves micro- rather than macro- management.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:38
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 The Communist Intersolar puts forward the Form Federation for Socialism Act. 1. Gain voting proxies with the Peltians by freely releasing Peltian prisoners, gifting them technology and excess resources, and expanding their land area. The goal is to acquire at least 300 voting proxies. 2. Increase the opinions of the Andors and Skylaxians towards the Peltians by building attitude buildings. Prioritize getting each of Peltian-Andor, Andor-Peltian, Skylaxian-Peltian, and Peltian-Skylaxian relations each up to 90. 2000 credits may be spent on construction workers to speed these developments. 3. Protect the Peltians, Andors, and Skylaxians from attacks by other races that reach their planets or outposts. 4. So long as it costs less than 2000 credits, continue to encourage the Skylaxians to expand their fleet. 5. If the conditions are met, Form Federation for Safety between the Andors, Peltians, and Skylaxians. A note on 1: the Peltians are unlikely to declare war on anyone, they are unlikely to share tech until they are in the Fed, and they are not at war with anyone so gifting them tech now won't piss anyone off. As always, CI members are invited to make comments or suggestions about our bill. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 00:38
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Rogue0071 posted:
 A fine act, and one that I am happy to support.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:40
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sniper4625 posted:I find it interesting the Eightfold Unity party is not vehemently rejecting the party calling for the outright extermination of species deemed unfit to survive in this new Federation of Fear, but I guess that's up to Impy. We tried vehemence. It failed. We learn from our mistakes, adapt and move forward.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:40
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A good idea, but not practical, is how I would summarize the position you take towards the "warmongers" of the galaxy. It would be better if we could talk the solar system into an amenable solution, but by setting the tone so early, we have taught the inheritor races the only way to get the Hydral's attention is to act out further. There is one thing I have been disabused of since joining this effort, and it's that the galaxy will wait for us to come to a consensus. That notion was dismantled as soon as we started with the conflict between Thoraxian and Burlust. At the time, I predicted that the conflict between the two would help check the Burlust conflict, and if we soothed the Thoraxian warlust, as opposed to invest in expensive bribes, the conflict would keep both in check. Strength matches Strength. The Thoraxians will not wait for us to come up with a solution for them maybe a solar decade from now. They will wait until the next mood change to Warlike and pick their target. The Burlusts cannot exist save in a state of war, and so long as they have the strength, they will fight. You complain that if the Evucks were so interested in trade, why didn't they trade, but provide no suggestion to help ameliorate their current aggression, or to follow up with trying to improve relations between the Evucks and other races. We had the opportunity to open trade between the Evucks and other races, and you voted it down. Value judgments about the natures of the races involved aside, an Andor-Acutian base Federation is the surest path we have. Practical for both short and long term, as it gives us limitless options to aid, or hinder, any other race, and build the relations necessary to expand it. Perfect for courting the rather prickly Evucks through indirect back-channels, and the Thoraxians if we so choose as well.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:40
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Shogeton posted:And do you think you can actually convince the other parties to for once cease their endless thirst to isolate the Acutians and the Evucks? Our party's proposal has to clean up the mess they make, while they're already writing the laws punishing the ANDOR for having the temerity to actually reach out in friendship? The Peeping Tom Act which allows pirates to raid us, the Tron Act which demands theft from Acutians and the Andors who helped them. And Revengeance and the Communist Intersolar have yet to make their proposals. History suggests they will not be kindly disposed to my people. The only outreach that they suggest to do is to manipulate is into another war, to weaken us. And not done with the intent to get us into the Federation. Do not for a second think that the Peeping Tom Act is anti-Evuck. It is anti-Boarine annihilation. Notice that, if peace breaks out between the Boarines and Evucks, we can start killing pirates for the Evucks. The Evucks, in my honest opinion, would make an excellent addition to the Federation. However, they're aggression needs to be checked. If they were friendlier with us, I would have no problem with them attacking a non-important race.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:45
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I believe Impy has already proposed a plan to diffuse the current Evuck aggression, and I have backed it. As for the rest, I'll address it when I get the chance, heading out the door now.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:45
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Shogeton posted:And do you think you can actually convince the other parties to for once cease their endless thirst to isolate the Acutians and the Evucks? Our party's proposal has to clean up the mess they make, while they're already writing the laws punishing the ANDOR for having the temerity to actually reach out in friendship? The Peeping Tom Act which allows pirates to raid us, the Tron Act which demands theft from Acutians and the Andors who helped them. And Revengeance and the Communist Intersolar have yet to make their proposals. History suggests they will not be kindly disposed to my people. The only outreach that they suggest to do is to manipulate is into another war, to weaken us. And not done with the intent to get us into the Federation. My stance is that I will work towards a federation that is fully inclusive of your people: I believe that we can work with the reality of the Andor-Acutian situation to make that inclusion a logical and reasonable one. With the Andors a key part of the likely starting federation, focusing on that friendship gives us a useful avenue to work with.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:46
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Told you to just let Burlusts fight Thoraxians. Ending a war will nearly always mean that one of the belligerents attacks someone else. This time it was Boarines. As for Evucks and Acutians - had you not chosen to antagonize them on every step, you could have easily convince them to end their respective wars without any bloodshed, which could have let you to save Boarines from Burlusts. It was a very bad policy that can't be explained with good intentions. You wanted to see two sentient races broken, ostensibly to avenge Hydrals you never even interacted with. And you still managed to mess that up.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:48
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Since other parties have added Federation-Forming legislation, I have amended the Peeping Tom Act. Proposal 4 now seeks to improve Federation-Thoraxian relations.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:48
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Tomn posted:I have to say, watching the evolution of the parties as they respond to actual in-game pressure is kinda entertaining. The splinter Eightfold Party has become the "So far left it's right-wing" party, while the splinter Revengeance party is trying to play up its peace-loving, justice angle instead of the, y'know, strength angle that was in its name. While I noticed this too (and it amuses me how far away from my own politics I've been throughout), to be perfectly fair the"subjugation/extermination is ok" party with only one member other than the Solar Tigers (the Five Planet Strategy) splintered from Revengeance about the same time as the CSF did. I think Viscardus might be busy as the Revengeance Party has suffered, unfortunately, without his guidance, which is a shame because despite the feelings over debates on the thread I felt it added something, though I also appreciate sniper's stepping up with his own brand. I did feel that the "brand" was confused up until that point as it seemed a lot of the ranks signed up for Revengeance and not Justice.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:54
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The way I see it, we have a decent chance with getting quite a few species into the Federation: Peltians, Skylaxians, Andors: our core initial nations; we're not all that far removed from being able to form a Fed with these three as mutual trade boosts relations etc. Acutians: we can probably get them in via the Andors, assuming that party exists in the Andor Parliament. Boarines: Probably dead. But if they survive, their situation with plagues and such is sufficiently terrible it might motivate them to join anyway. Burlusts, Thoraxians, Evucks: HELP they're going to kill us all. Or at least, there's no currently straightforward way to get them in. Though with the Evucks at least getting trade routes going would help.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:56
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Juvenalian.Satyr posted:While I noticed this too (and it amuses me how far away from my own politics I've been throughout), to be perfectly fair the"subjugation/extermination is ok" party with only one member other than the Solar Tigers (the Five Planet Strategy) splintered from Revengeance about the same time as the CSF did. Phone posting to say that YF was CI, not RP.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:56
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sniper4625 posted:Phone posting to say that YF was CI, not RP. Woops! My apologies. Arguably the CI was already the "so left wing it's right wing" party but that's a bit of a misnomer. They had pretty strong reasons for their anti-Acutian stance, at least. I should mention that really I'm most interested in the policy/party that would be the most interesting path, rather than any real principles beyond the semi-IC speeches. I chose the Unity because I felt it would create something very hard to reach, especially being goon led. At this point, though, I wanted to advocate for something that would be more interesting to me than the "safety" route, and a warmonger Federation that somehow includes the Andors fits that ticket exactly.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:58
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... Umm, how about...  I'd like to propose the This is the Time for Eloquent Speeches to Preserve Peace act. The TITTFESTPP Act. 1. Get the Pacifiers back in power on Andor, should the Hydral have spare time for it as he deals with the crisis. 2. If the war has not been ended or mitigated by other means, request the Andors help us end it at a reasonable cost. 3. As a standing order, Soothe Warlust of any "opportunistic" species who are building up their fleet, should spare funds be available for the project. This should not be interpreted overly-liberally, should not be employed to the detriment of any other program, and should be employed selectively at the Hydral's discression. All of the above shall be done as a low spending priority, no matter how this bill is supported. I'm aware the crisis is probably too immediate for this to have any effect, but hopefully it might help prevent things from getting worse. Today the Borines... tomorrow the Peltians? I think it's about time this council get serious about demilitarization of this system.
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Aug 4, 2014 01:00
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Eiba posted:I'm aware the crisis is probably too immediate for this to have any effect, but hopefully it might help prevent things from getting worse. Today the Borines... tomorrow the Peltians? I think it's about time this council get serious about demilitarization of this system. Unfortunately, my fellow robot, I think the time for demilitarization expired. Better to put the militarism towards the goal of solar unity, than let it fester and destroy. Appeasement will not keep the planet crackers at bay.
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Aug 4, 2014 01:03
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Juvenalian.Satyr posted:Unfortunately, my fellow robot, I think the time for demilitarization expired. Better to put the militarism towards the goal of solar unity, than let it fester and destroy. Incidentally, I hugely support the Communist Intersolar's act. Demilitarization is not necessarily being promoted to give the aggressive species a peaceful path into the federation. I understand that they will be... difficult. But whether you want to crush them or eventually coax them onto a gentler path- either way, reducing their fleets so they're less likely to kill all the Peltians is a pretty good idea, so far as I can see. Eiba fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 01:06
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 After much deliberation and discussion as well as a fortune spent on pizza, the Owls On Drugs present to this Council the Aella House Party Act. It is as follows: Throw a huge party on Aella. Like, go down there and I'll kick back and get wasted with all my new Peltian space pirate buddies while Harry grabs everyone else and builds a huge-rear end Boarine warfleet over the course of a few months (doesn't the building get like 20 times faster when he's around?). Spend like 5000 credits on that poo poo, just assisting with armada construction for as long as it takes for them to get their momentum on. Invite all your friends. Can we like batphone the Peltian armada, the Andor armada, and any other buds who want to stop by and just get stupid in space over Aella? It's gonna be awesome, man. Bring plenty of party favors. EMPTY THE loving HOLD. If they can give us any cred in exchange that would be awesome too. We're not doing this poo poo for free. Do some exchanges of some of the other squatters in our hold to pay for this poo poo we're gonna do. Just leave the Peltian pirates, okay? Those guys are fuckin' amazing. We were all circled around the hookah last night when one of them tells me he's gonna show me a great way to beat the blood-brain barrier, then he pulls up his eyepatch and sticks the hose in the socket and shiiiiiiiit man, you should have seen that guy. Oh yeah and you other owls on drugs should totally get in touch sometime. If anyone else has any other provisions they want in the bill I'll totally get you hooked UP. Pittsburgh Lambic fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 02:40
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:Throw a huge party on Aella. Like, go down there and I'll kick back and get wasted with all my new Peltian space pirate buddies while Harry grabs everyone else and builds a huge-rear end Boarine warfleet over the course of a few months (doesn't the building get like 20 times faster when he's around?). Spend like 5000 credits on that poo poo, just assisting with armada construction for as long as it takes for them to get their momentum on. I don't know if we have enough influence with them to pull this off. Apparently that's kind of our issue currently with the Boarines ( EDIT:Thank you for the correction Wiz. MoadDib fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 08:14
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MoadDib posted:I don't know if we have enough influence with them to pull this off. Apparently that's kind of our issue currently with the Boarines (It's why we couldn't get them to make trade routes update before last), they don't love us enough to come out of their shells (possibly literally IDFK) so they won't let us do much for them. Apparently bribing them to colonize an unnecessary moon isn't enough to make them love Harry, who knew. Wish we'd known that before spending thousands of credits on the project, but no use crying over spilled bong water. Actually the Boarines just refuse to trade period. Isolationists and all that. Didn't actually know that until we tried it here.
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Aug 4, 2014 08:32
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All right, let's have a look at this legislation, then. Aella House Party: I dunno how feasible this is. We're pretty short on credits now, and 5,000 credits is a pretty big-budget item. I also wonder if we'll actually have TIME to build up a fleet before the opposing fleets show up and blow everything away - as I understand it, the Evucks and the Burlusts are attacking right now and they aren't going to politely wait until the Boarines and their allies have amassed a proper armada to face them. Can anyone who knows more about the game weigh in on how feasible it is to help the Boarines build up? TITTFESTPP: This seems unnecessary. It's been mentioned that if we get enough influence with the Evucks (and we can, apparently, in a very short timeframe), it'd only take 500 credits to get them to declare peace. Swaying the Andors into a new party and convincing them to broker peace is expensive and time-consuming, and as has been noted, we're working on a budget here and a limited timeframe. Soothing warlust to help keep the Evucks and Acutians from getting too strong is probably a good idea, but it'd still cost a fair bit to get the Pacificers into power - probably. Wiz, how long would it take and how expensive would it be to get the Pacifiers into power? Form Federation for Socialism Act: A fairly sensible proposal all-around, but it seems like this will consume the lion's share of any resources, and of course it locks us into the Safety Federation strategy. It also seems like this strategy is more or less going to abandon the Boarines as a lost cause, which might be relevant to those invested in the Boarines. I also have to ask: Is the resulting Federation from this act going to be able to fend off Acutian/Evuck aggression in the short term? Take Robot Outposts Now (TRON) Act: On its own, a reasonable-seeming proposal, but in combination with many of the other acts on the table, this seems liable to lead to bankruptcy, and isn't as immediately required as the others. And, of course, the act will not be well-looked upon by anyone with hopes of an Acutian/Andorian axis. I would also like to know how badly our relations with the Andors will be damaged by stealing an outpost. Peeping Tom Act: A fairly radical proposal, and one likely to lead to permanent enmity with the Acutians, Evucks, and Burlusts. The hopes of drawing the Thoraxians into the Federation through trade is an interesting one, though. I also have to wonder whether leaving pirates around is a good idea - they will damage the Evucks and Acutians in the short-term, but if allowed to fester will they become a greater danger to everyone else? I'd like someone who knows more about the game to weigh in. MOP-UP 2: Hopefully the first clause will keep this act from interfering with the budget of other acts - it is possible, however, that if we try to do too much this will be pushed so low on the list of budgetary priorities that it never comes into effect, leaving us technologically-behind. Also, I have my doubts about the wisdom of getting the Hydral drunk during an intergalactic crisis, but he deserves it. Mo' Money, Mo' Problems Act: Doesn't seem to do much. The Communist Intersolar act seems to do much of the same things, but with more of an eye to actually building up military strength to help resist a potential attack by the Evucks and Acutians. The only really unique thing on the table is the attempt to add in the Thoraxians, but that might be better-served by trade routes right now. I think this is the only act that has a blanket provision on how to deal with all prisoners, though, the others address them in dribs and drabs. Boarine Preservation Act: Along with The Andorian Nice Guy proposal, the only other act to directly try to bring peace to the Boarines. Also with the Aella House Party act, one of the few explicitly demanding that the Hydral amass wealth and build himself a bigger budget. Notable in that it actively tries to get the Burlusts into the Federation. I am somewhat concerned that the act leaves only a little leeway for how to stop Evuck aggression, though - if the Evucks invade before we can convince them to make peace, what do we do? Forming the Base Act: Another act to build up the Federation ASAP. Also the only act to mandate trying to set the Acutians and Evucks against each other to waste their strength, as well as the only one mandating that the Boarines be helped to seek independence if conquered. Please note that while it has been said that inciting the Evucks to war is possible, it will be enormously expensive and will likely consume most if not all of our budget if undertaken. Come to that, between that clause and the buildings clause, this act has the potential to drain our budget even if it's the only act we pass. I do think that one of the best things we can do to ensure peace for everyone else is to set the Evucks and Acutians against each other, though - what is more important, building up the strength of our allies, or trying to tear down the strength of the Evucks and Acutians? Notable Concerns: - The budget is a major issue - while many of these acts look good on their own, taken together they mandate enormous amounts of spending, far in excess of what we can afford. I request that Councilors look over the likely cost of actions taken very carefully when casting their votes to ensure they don't vote for an overbudget general proposal. Remember we've about eight thousand credits in the bank right now. - Forming the Base, TITTFESTPP, and the Peeping Tom acts are the only acts that directly mandate damaging the Evucks and Acutians, and they're listed in likely order of effectiveness. Most other acts focus on building up the strength of our allies instead. Can we truly build ourselves up to match the Evucks and the Acutians without taking them down a notch first? - There are zero - say again, zero - contingencies in place for a response if the Acutians and the Evucks declare war on anyone else. If the Acutians decide to declare war on the Peltians next session, Harry is mandated to do NOTHING. I highly, highly recommend that this be addressed immediately. I'd do it myself, but authorizing war or potentially expensive peace spending is a bit outside the scope of MOP-UP. - The Aella House Party, TITTFESTPP, and the Boarine Preservation Act are the few acts that directly try to keep the Boarines from being conquered. Keep this in mind during voting. - There are some proposals out there to steal abandoned outposts - I'd like to know how likely it is that outposts are abandoned, and how much it costs if anything to upkeep them. - In general, between budgetary concerns and conflicting overall strategies, this session looks like it will only support a handful of passed bills - most conflict with each other either ideologically or financially. Please be very careful and circumspect about what you vote for.
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Aug 4, 2014 09:27
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We could always re-write the MOP-UP's point one such that it is to be set to the lowest priority of all of the actions which the Hydral has the resources to perform in this session. Which is probably what I meant anyway.
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Aug 4, 2014 09:31
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:
We should like, round up some dudes from the black market and have them build us a space pad to chill in.
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Aug 4, 2014 09:50
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Tomn posted:Questions Helping the Boarines build up might help against the Burlusts, who don't have much of a fleet. Far too slow against the Evucks though. Getting the Pacifiers into power would cost 2000-3000ish and take a year and a half. Stealing an outpost is a -30 influence drop. Outposts being abandoned is a random event, I usually see a couple per game get abandoned.
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Aug 4, 2014 09:55
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Tomn posted:Take Robot Outposts Now (TRON) Act: On its own, a reasonable-seeming proposal, but in combination with many of the other acts on the table, this seems liable to lead to bankruptcy, and isn't as immediately required as the others. And, of course, the act will not be well-looked upon by anyone with hopes of an Acutian/Andorian axis. I would also like to know how badly our relations with the Andors will be damaged by stealing an outpost. Tomn posted:Peeping Tom Act: A fairly radical proposal, and one likely to lead to permanent enmity with the Acutians, Evucks, and Burlusts. The hopes of drawing the Thoraxians into the Federation through trade is an interesting one, though. I also have to wonder whether leaving pirates around is a good idea - they will damage the Evucks and Acutians in the short-term, but if allowed to fester will they become a greater danger to everyone else? I'd like someone who knows more about the game to weigh in. Tomn posted:Forming the Base Act: Another act to build up the Federation ASAP. Also the only act to mandate trying to set the Acutians and Evucks against each other to waste their strength, as well as the only one mandating that the Boarines be helped to seek independence if conquered. Please note that while it has been said that inciting the Evucks to war is possible, it will be enormously expensive and will likely consume most if not all of our budget if undertaken. Come to that, between that clause and the buildings clause, this act has the potential to drain our budget even if it's the only act we pass. I do think that one of the best things we can do to ensure peace for everyone else is to set the Evucks and Acutians against each other, though - what is more important, building up the strength of our allies, or trying to tear down the strength of the Evucks and Acutians? Tomn posted:- There are some proposals out there to steal abandoned outposts - I'd like to know how likely it is that outposts are abandoned, and how much it costs if anything to upkeep them. Tomn posted:Notable Concerns: MoadDib fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 10:01
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MoadDib posted:It really is too bad that Viscardius hasn't shown up during this because all of this stuff is firmly in the Revengeance Party's wheel house. Hopefully he'll show up or maybe Wiz can let one of the other members draft something if Visc never makes an appearance. Fair point. Any other Revengeancers willing to posit a provisional bill?
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Aug 4, 2014 10:35
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AJ_Impy posted:Fair point. Any other Revengeancers willing to posit a provisional bill? If Wiz is okay with it, I can draft one tomorrow before the voting phase if Visc still hasn't shown-up. I wouldn't want to overstep, so it'd just have the common sense stuff, a provision on the current war, something for possible future aggression, stuff that people have come to expect from the RP bills.
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Aug 4, 2014 11:03
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MoadDib posted:Financially this shouldn't be an issue, someone was saying earlier in the thread that outposts are credit generators, so any expenses should be quickly made up and the bill itself ensures that the budget must be able to handle it before purchasing security is enacted. Would it? The bill mandates taking at least one outpost, with the possibility of taking on top of that any that the Acutians build as well, while mandating 2000 credits per outpost taken for immediate security with no budgetary limits - the limits are only for additional security, not the base. That's a quarter of our budget gone right away, and a further half deducted if the Acutians build an outpost, which by itself would drain most of the finances of other bills. Even if we accept that outposts make money, how quickly do outposts generate credits? If they can't do more than break even in the space of a single update, then effectively speaking the money spent on them is gone so far as the other bills are concerned. Come to think of it, TRON also mandates unlimited seizing of Acutian outposts as soon as they crop up, at -30 influence a pop. Are we prepared to abandon the Acutians as allies, while at the same time damaging our relations with those most capable of backdooring them into a Federation? Ilanin posted:We could always re-write the MOP-UP's point one such that it is to be set to the lowest priority of all of the actions which the Hydral has the resources to perform in this session. Which is probably what I meant anyway. Possible, though in such a case MOP-UP might prevent other bills from being effectively carried out - the budget really is very tight this session. To those who know the game, how important are the technologies we're missing? Are we just straight hosed if we don't learn them, or is it going to be inconvenient, or what? MoadDib posted:If Wiz is okay with it, I can draft one tomorrow before the voting phase if Visc still hasn't shown-up. I think it'd be a good idea if Wiz were to officially include the idea of deputies in parties to propose or modify legislation in the leader's absence - right at the moment the absence of a leader can effectively paralyze a party during legislation or leave it unable to react to new information cropping up later in the session.
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Aug 4, 2014 12:21
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Tomn posted:TITTFESTPP: This seems unnecessary. It's been mentioned that if we get enough influence with the Evucks (and we can, apparently, in a very short timeframe), it'd only take 500 credits to get them to declare peace. Swaying the Andors into a new party and convincing them to broker peace is expensive and time-consuming, and as has been noted, we're working on a budget here and a limited timeframe. Soothing warlust to help keep the Evucks and Acutians from getting too strong is probably a good idea, but it'd still cost a fair bit to get the Pacificers into power - probably. Wiz, how long would it take and how expensive would it be to get the Pacifiers into power? I believe it's worded in such a way that it won't get in the way of any other peace legislation. I'll admit I skimmed enough that I didn't know about directly brokering peace with the Evucks.
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Aug 4, 2014 12:56
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How many credits does building the relationship buildings net us?
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Aug 4, 2014 14:49
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Anticheese posted:We should like, round up some dudes from the black market and have them build us a space pad to chill in. Do we have the cred for that right now? Last I heard everyone was being all weird about money and poo poo.
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Aug 4, 2014 15:14
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sniper4625 posted:How many credits does building the relationship buildings net us? Pretty profitable: I don't have the exact figures handy but buildings are one of the better paid dispatches.
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Aug 4, 2014 16:40
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AJ_Impy posted:Pretty profitable: I don't have the exact figures handy but buildings are one of the better paid dispatches. Then hopefully that provision in my bill should offset the bigger spending that is called for. I'll try to track down some harder numbers so we can see how it interacts with other bills. CSF, any thoughts?
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Aug 4, 2014 16:42
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So, fellow Revengence members. The Evucks and Acutians have shown their true colors to the solar system. At the same time, there are some nasty plagues going around. Let me tell you from experience, we can't let disease destroy civilizations. It came close for my people once before, never again. Only Hydrals have the technology required to prevent the Black Bubbles from wiping everyone out... but we need a place to develop the vaccine, and for some reason, the other races aren't willing to share. MOP-UP provides for obtaining any empty outposts. But we need to be more proactive. If the Acutians, Evucks, or... well, why not the Burlusts too for good measure... if any of them build a science outpost, we must take it-- peacefully if possible, but violently as necessary. Our bill should also provide for attacking the Evucks and Acutians whenever possible in the defense of anyone and everyone they are attacking. I know, it's like the Finger-in-Dike-Boy, but we need to do SOMETHING. I would not mind encouraging the Burlusts in attacking the Evucks and Acutians as well, to keep them occupied and perhaps get their fleets down.
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Aug 4, 2014 16:56
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I probably won't be home in time to start vote so Sniper feel free to.
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Aug 4, 2014 17:00
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Eiba posted:The primary goal of this act is not to broker peace. I'm assuming that'll happen, one way or another, before we get the Pacifiers in power. Soothing Warlust is the real goal. Well, the trouble is basically a budgetary one. That said, I haven't crunched the hard numbers, so let's do that for a bit. Keep in mind, I haven't really played the game before, and thus any corrections will not only be welcomed and appreciated, but actively sought out. Treasury  This is the current state of our treasury. Note that we can sell pilots as slaves for 500 credits per pop and some general influence hits across the board, or we can ransom them for a "small" amount of credits (a few dozen to a few hundred, apparently?) Any prisoners thus enslaved or ransomed will not then be available for influence increases. We also have a fair whack of resources, which we can sell for 50 credits per 100 units. However, resources thus spent are no longer available for use in making buildings - and something I missed in the discussion earlier is that building buildings does apparently make money, on top of whatever you earn for doing the building dispatch. So there's that. If we enslaved every pilot in our cargo holds, we could float 22,000 credits, at the cost of a -44 influence hit to Boarines, Andors, Skylaxians, and Evucks (Peltians can't be sold as slaves, apparently). We'd get +44 influence to Peltians and Burlusts, though. If we ransomed them instead, we might pessimistically get around 1,272 credits or optimistically around 21,200? Assuming a low ransom of 24 credits per pilot, and a high ransom of 400 per pilot. Actual ransom is probably in-between those somewhere, I assume near the low end. Also it seems like only some races offer credits for ransom, others just gain leverage or voting proxies or something? As for resources, if we sold off our entire stockpile we'd get around 3,133 credits for the lot. This doesn't seem like a lot - I strongly suspect that building buildings via dispatch would get much better returns per resources spent, at the cost of time. Looking back at the old updates, for example, apparently building a "pastoral hideaway" got us 3800 credits, but took 40 months to complete. Another screen suggests that buildings are worth 3,320 to 4,320 credits, upon completion. I imagine the precise resource costs vary from building to building, but apparently a Cryo-Storage Warren, which improves relations with the Skylaxians and to a lesser extent the Evucks, would cost us 5,000 Terbium. So with that said, let's look at what the proposals on hand would cost us. Proposed Costs Aella House Party Act: 5,000 credits on building a Boarine fleet, plus whatever it costs to convince other races to help the Boarines out militarily. Offset by what I think is an imperative to sell all our resources and ransom our prisoners. Unknown how much this would get us - the resources should be around 3,133, but the pilots are a bit of a mystery. TITTFESTPP: 2-3,000 credits over a year and a half for getting the Pacifiers into power, X amount of credits to broker a truce, and at least 2,000 credits to soothe the warlust of the Acutians and the Evucks - possibly more, depending on who is "opportunistic". Are the Burlusts and the Thoraxians opportunistic? What about the Peltians? Form Federation for Socialism Act: Up to 2,000 credits spent on Skylaxian fleet expansion, and up to 2,000 credits spent on construction workers to speed up construction - which would end up reducing the profit we get on buildings to around 1-2,000 credits per building, probably, but would allow us to build them faster. We will also lose whatever resources we spend either building buildings, or giving them away to the Peltians, making those a financial null. Take Robot Outposts Now (TRON) Act: 2,000 credits spent immediately on seizing and staffing an Andor research station. 2,000 more spent immediately should the Acutians build new stations. Further 1,000 per station spent if the treasury has at least 5,000 credits. Stations apparently generate money and should offset part of this cost, but how much and how quickly? Peeping Tom Act: 3,000 credits gained right away from enslaving Acutians. This windfall is then to be immediately spent hiring informants for the Evucks, Acutians, and Burlusts. New trade routes are mandated, which should cost about 4-600 credits per pop, for a total of about 8-1,200 credits. We will also not gain whatever credits we might have earned from destroyed pirate stations. MOP-UP 2: Mop Harder: Apparently this shouldn't cost us anything. In fact, the cooperative research mandate should earn us a small trickle of credits, though it will take time. We are mandated to pay for the price of four drinks for each of Harry's heads, but this should be an out-of-pocket expense for individual councilors - give generously, folks! Other than that, seizing abandoned outposts might trigger the TRON Act, which would incur an immediate 2,000 credit expense per station. Mo' Money, Mo' Problems Act: An unspecified amount of credits will be got from ransoming prisoners. The same TRON trigger as with MOP-UP 2. Attitude buildings to be made, but judging from past experience it's unlikely we'll be able to build more than one or two, so probably around 3-6,000 credits and a boatload of time? Boarine Preservation Act: 500 credits or so spent on convincing the Evucks to call off their Boarine War, plus anything we spend (pilots, minerals) on making the Evucks like us enough to listen to us. The Hydral is also directed to end the Burlust/Boarine war by "whatever means necessary," which could be anything and could cost anything. Harry is also directed to build a pro-Burlust building which should net us around 3,000 credits, as well as to "amass resources in ways that gain influence at the Hydral's discretion," which could mean anything. Probably the single most financially vague bill on the table. Forming the Base Act: About 7,000 credits to convince the Evucks to declare war on the Acutians. 6,000 credits to incite rebellion on the Boarine homeworld if it falls (1,000 for the informant, 5,000 for the inciting itself). Unknown costs spent on nebulous "relationship improvements," but if this means undergoing the dispatch that spends credits for relations, a cool 4,200 to 6,450 credits per month. Offset, slightly, by mandating relationship buildings which might as usual recoup 3,000 to 4,000. Far and away the single most expensive bill on the roster, and entirely capable of swallowing up the entire budget and driving us into bankruptcy even if nothing else passes. Conclusions: I'm a little too frazzled right now to draw any conclusions of my own, so draw your own from the data provided. However, I will point out that the TRON Act might have unintended consequences if there's more available outposts than imagined, costing us 2,000 credits per outpost. Also, Forming the Base needs a drat serious rewording if it's not to break the bank. I will also state that vague "at his discretion" or "any means necessary" wording is a giant headache to budget for, and it might be worth being more precise. In general, the more specific you are, the easier it is to figure out how much you're probably taking out of the treasury - at the cost, of course, of tying the Hydral's hands in unexpected situations.
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Aug 4, 2014 17:35
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