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Obdicut posted:Well, the government of the town is overwhelmingly white, despite a majority of black citizenry. So local leaders have definitely not been effective in, say, getting a representative number of black people elected to office. Honestly I'm not a big fan of Al so I'll elaborate I don't have a problem with him coming to the protest as an individual but holy hell is he polarizing as gently caress and while calling him a race baiter is racist bullshit he does like the spotlight on him. But honestly that's not a problem limited to Al or Jessie that's an NAACP problem. edit:Hell it's always been a problem if we're being honest the civil rights movement was an amazing PR campaign which unfortunately means you have to make sure certain people get the spotlight and certain people don't,basically the beginning of respectability politics which was bullshit then and Al and everybody else should let the community handle this and support them. SirKibbles fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 14:58
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A second question: A complex fraud is carried out in a small town by a person who lives and works in the town. All the fraud experts who could advise on this case are unable to find the small town on a map. Should the small town PD enlist the aid of these outside experts or solve the local crime locally?
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Aug 13, 2014 14:59
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Hot Dog Day #31 posted:I'm so confused by all the people arguing that a protest movement should only be centered around local leaders. The community and local leaders should be the primary voice and should definitely be at the forefront of the movement but to deny that outside protest leaders are unhelpful or unwanted de-legitimizes movements like Freedom Summer which were hugely successful and which had the backing of the community they came to. To say that national political figures should keep their hands off of a local protest movement ignores the agency of local leaders and activists who might actually want outside intervention and help from other activists. Yeah it doesn't make any sense, but Google the phrase "race hustler" and everything should fall into place SirKibbles posted:Honestly I'm not a big fan of Al so I'll elaborate I don't have a problem with him coming to the protest as an individual but holy hell is he polarizing as gently caress and while calling him a race baiter is racist bullshit he does like the spotlight on him. But honestly that's not a problem limited to Al or Jessie that's an NAACP problem. Is polarization inappropriate? Would you call the NAACP "outside agitators"?
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Aug 13, 2014 14:59
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SirKibbles posted:Honestly I'm not a big fan of Al so I'll elaborate I don't have a problem with him coming to the protest as an individual but holy hell is he polarizing as gently caress and while calling him a race baiter is racist bullshit he does like the spotlight on him. But honestly that's not a problem limited to Al or Jessie that's an NAACP problem. I'm sorry, I can't really sort this out. First of all, who does Sharpton 'polarize'? What are the two poles? Second, are you saying the NAACP tends to hog the spotlight in anything they get involved with? What problems does this cause?
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Aug 13, 2014 15:01
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zen death robot posted:It's official, news helicopters have been told not to fly over Ferguson: Asked. 4/2599 NOTAM posted:Beginning Date and Time : August 12, 2014 at 1315 UTC Uh. I'm confused, I mean, if a police helicopter was shot at, then 3000 feet makes sense to protect civilian aircraft because the effective range on most small arms is ~3000 feet. But "To provide a safe environment for law enforcement"?  For what it's worth, breaking a NOTAM is not some major crime, although the Cops may want to force the aircraft down and arrest the pilot, they have no authority to do so, the FAA has 100% jurisdiction over the skies and cops have none.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:02
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McAlister posted:Hated black guy goes into situation where white supremacist assholes are shooting uppity black guys. Well, I'm pretty sure that despite the hate he gets from white Americans, shooting him would be about the worst thing the police could do for their situation.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:05
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Obdicut posted:Well, the government of the town is overwhelmingly white, despite a majority of black citizenry. So local leaders have definitely not been effective in, say, getting a representative number of black people elected to office. I feel that the harm is that the spotlight will shift from the authentic voices of leaders like Antonio French to the appearances of Al Sharpton who is incapable of voicing community concerns in anything but generic terms. The St. Louis NAACP is composed of community members who can lean on the support of the national organization. Jesse Jackson has commented, eloquently as usual, without drawing the spotlight to himself. Those are correct ways to support community activism. Stultus Maximus fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 15:06
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Obdicut posted:I'm sorry, I can't really sort this out. Read the edit I made the polarization or more of a this protest will be about Al Sharpton because he's there, your original post was what harm would Al Sharpton it doesn't have to necessarily be his fault.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:09
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Stultus Maximus posted:I feel that the harm is that the spotlight will shift from the authentic voices of leaders like Antonio French to the appearances of Al Sharpton who is incapable of voicing community concerns in anything but generic terms. Okay, then, again: What harm is that going to cause? Even if we grant your idea that Sharpton is incapable of voicing community concerns in anything but generic terms. SirKibbles posted:Read the edit I made the polarization or more of a this protest will be about Al Sharpton because he's there, your original post was what harm would Al Sharpton it doesn't have to necessarily be his fault. Again, what are the poles? So far, the reason I see it now being about Al Sharpton is because you and a few other people are now saying "Now that Sharpton's here it'll all be about him" which is a self-fulfilling prophecy that you, and not he, are initiating. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 15:09
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Obdicut posted:Okay, then, again: What harm is that going to cause? Even if we grant your idea that Sharpton is incapable of voicing community concerns in anything but generic terms. Do you not pay attention politics? We just got finished talking about people(in this thread no less) screaming how he's agitating the black folks like you know we're a hive mind and he's some weird queen that commands us. edit: Done with this not what the thread is about.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:21
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Are we supposed to respect those people or take their views into account?Stultus Maximus posted:I feel that the harm is that the spotlight will shift from the authentic voices of leaders like Antonio French to the appearances of Al Sharpton who is incapable of voicing community concerns in anything but generic terms. Sharpton is also eloquent.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:23
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SirKibbles posted:Do you not pay attention politics? We just got finished talking about people(in this thread no less) screaming how he's agitating the black folks like you know we're a hive mind and he's some weird queen that commands us. So the poles are "Racists who think that Sharpton commands the black hive mind" and "people who aren't crazy"?
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Aug 13, 2014 15:24
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Stultus Maximus posted:Police said they received a call reporting about four to five men in the area armed with shotguns and wearing ski masks. They also got reports of shots fired in the area. Police officers arrived and saw "multiple subjects running," said police spokesman Officer Brian Schellman.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:28
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Obdicut posted:So the poles are "Racists who think that Sharpton commands the black hive mind" and "people who aren't crazy"? Yep.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:28
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Elotana posted:So the call reports a group armed with shotguns, the officers arrive and see them running, an officer "approaches" a running suspect, who rather than continuing to run, pulls a handgun and gets shot? Seems legit. It isn't as if the Ferguson cops would lie about something like this.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:33
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And for those who would draw a distinction between Jackson and Sharpton, surely you know that bigots never do. They always mention the two in the same breath. It's rather mainstream actually. I think it was Jay Leno who had the "Polaroid where Jesse Jackson appears in every photo" bit. Sharpton must be doing something right to be placed in such august company. And the truth is, he has; he has been doing grassroots work since he was a teenager, since before he was James Brown's road manager. I can guarantee you that there are a bunch of St. Louis activists that he knows on a first name basis.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:33
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I don't personally like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the mainstream NAACP, et. al, mostly because they tend to rely on the rhetoric of respectability politics, "gotta hear both sides", and equating violence of the oppressed being as bad or worse than violence of the oppressors, and at this point they've obviously gone from being organic community leaders to co-opted, mainstream apparatuses used to paint anything to do with race in a certain light, but...they are extremely effective at putting pressure on governments when it comes to issues surrounding race and civil rights. Hearing that Al Sharpton is coming to your town is about the last thing any local government official wants, because the media is sure to follow and you're under that much more scrutiny. Right now it seems like there are a LOT of local community leaders involved in not only organizing the response in Ferguson and keeping it effective as well as controlled, but also organizing things like the National Moment of Silence 2014 https://www.facebook.com/NMOS2014 (happening today, google and see if there's one in your town). If outsiders like Al Sharpton try to take over and do things his way I'm sure there'll be friction, but right now his presence is making sure that the national media reports on this and maintains a spotlight on events, and the guy has been doing this kind of work for DECADES. His contributions, regardless of the negative light that most of White America sees him in, is a net positive here.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:37
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Obdicut posted:Okay, then, again: What harm is that going to cause? Even if we grant your idea that Sharpton is incapable of voicing community concerns in anything but generic terms. The people who get most angry about Al Sharpton involving himself in a protest - and please note I'm not placing any of the posters in this thread into this category - are almost always the people on the opposite side of the protest. He provides a convenient bogeyman for those forces opposed to changing the status quo; they can yell things like "We were trying to handle the protests peacefully but then Al Sharpton showed up and now he's whipped all those That in no way counteracts the good he does by bringing attention and experience to a protest action, however, and it's important, I think, to remember that the people most apt to yell "but now it's going to be all about Al" are the people who most stand to benefit by the protests being all about Al.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:46
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SedanChair posted:Are we supposed to respect those people or take their views into account? Matter of opinion I guess. I've always enjoyed Jackson's speeches and that column was written addressing specific characteristics of North County and using that to speak to larger issues for a national audience. Sharpton's speech seemed more generic to me. But that's my perception and I won't argue that you have to agree with it.  Look, it's my view that solutions to community problems can only come from leadership and solidarity within that community, addressing the specific causes and needs that the community has. The voices have to be authentic. The solutions have to be organic to the community. I don't have a problem with national involvement but it can only properly function as support, not as leadership. I think Sharpton takes on too much of a leadership role when he shows up and it takes the focus away from the local leaders and the work that they have already been doing.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:46
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Just an FYI but anyone who claims Al Sharpton shouldn't be involved because of whatever reason is just justifying racism. Al Sharpton is not only an experienced community organizer but he uses his celebrity effectively to publicize issues that need and should continue to get national attention. There are only two reasons to be mad that Al Sharpton is looking at this situation: One is if you're an outright racist and just hate Al Sharpton and two is if you're a troll who is just "concerned" that white reactions to Al Sharpton will derail the issue at hand.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:48
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You would have an easier time painting people concerned about Al Sharpton escalating a protest into a riot as crazy racists if Al Sharpton was not directly responsible for both the Freddie's Fashion Mart and Crown Heights riots in New York. He's an anti-Semite who has gotten people murdered to raise his public profile. I know here in leftist D&D, instigating the death of Jews isn't exactly a negative on someone's resume, but the reality is that he's a despicable racist murderer and no one protesting extrajudicial killing in good faith has any business allying with him.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:51
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Stultus Maximus posted:
I'm not sure what any of this means, or why you're presenting it as though it's automatically true. Most solutions to racial injustice in the US have come about through court decisions at the state or federal level, not arising through organic community solutions. Al Sharpton has been a civil rights leader/agitator whatever for his whole life: I don't get how he's not 'authentic'. The issues experienced in this community are experienced, broadly, by the black community, of which Sharpton is a part. You seem to be saying that the black community of this town is not in solidarity with the black community outside it. That the problem is just 'The police force in this town is whacko', and not "The US has systemic racism throughout the justice system". Are you saying that what needs to be fixed is just Ferguson PD, and that this case doesn't have broader implications? meat sweats posted:You would have an easier time painting people concerned about Al Sharpton escalating a protest into a riot as crazy racists if Al Sharpton was not directly responsible for both the Freddie's Fashion Mart and Crown Heights riots in New York. He's an anti-Semite who has gotten people murdered to raise his public profile. I know here in leftist D&D, instigating the death of Jews isn't exactly a negative on someone's resume, but the reality is that he's a despicable racist murderer and no one protesting extrajudicial killing in good faith has any business allying with him. By the standards you're using to say that Sharpton incited violence, you're inciting violence against Sharpton. Nifty! Obdicut fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 15:51
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Obdicut posted:You seem to be saying that the black community of this town is not in solidarity with the black community outside it. That the problem is just 'The police force in this town is whacko', and not "The US has systemic racism throughout the justice system". Are you saying that what needs to be fixed is just Ferguson PD, and that this case doesn't have broader implications? Oh great, here comes another session of "don't ever punish a cop for being a murderer until you've rewritten the Constitution, replaced the Supreme Court with nine Noam Chomskys, and re-educated every American about critical race theory -- that's scapegoating" from Realistic Solutions Man Who Is Definitely Not A Cop Apologist.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:55
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This seems to be the most outstanding image from last nights protests and subsequent police response; a protester wearing an American flag t-shirt throwing back a ignited can of tear gas at the police. 
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Aug 13, 2014 15:55
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meat sweats posted:You would have an easier time painting people concerned about Al Sharpton escalating a protest into a riot as crazy racists if Al Sharpton was not directly responsible for both the Freddie's Fashion Mart and Crown Heights riots in New York. He's an anti-Semite who has gotten people murdered to raise his public profile. I know here in leftist D&D, instigating the death of Jews isn't exactly a negative on someone's resume, but the reality is that he's a despicable racist murderer and no one protesting extrajudicial killing in good faith has any business allying with him. Yeah, kindly suck an exhaust pipe. Being anti-Israel, talking about Israel and their numerous war crimes, or calling Israel an apartheid state isn't antisemitism, it's called looking at facts objectively.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:56
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meat sweats posted:Oh great, here comes another session of "don't ever punish a cop for being a murderer until you've rewritten the Constitution, replaced the Supreme Court with nine Noam Chomskys, and re-educated every American about critical race theory -- that's scapegoating" from Realistic Solutions Man Who Is Definitely Not A Cop Apologist. I've already said that the cop should have been immediately arrested, and that the shooting appears to be completely unjustifiable. Obviously he should have a defense, but given what has been presented already, I think the officer is probably guilty of homicide and should be imprisoned. I also think that this is not an isolated incident, and that the justice system in the US is systemically racist and we should fix that, and that this case has implications for the broader racism in the US and not just police injustice. Do you have a problem with either of these two actual, non-fantasy positions of mine?
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Aug 13, 2014 15:57
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A Winner is Jew posted:Yeah, kindly suck an exhaust pipe. Being anti-Israel, talking about Israel and their numerous war crimes, or calling Israel an apartheid state isn't antisemitism, it's called looking at facts objectively. Sorry, were we talking about Israel? I was talking about the Jews in New York who were murdered at the instigation and, in one case, the direct order of Al Sharpton. I've never posted anything about Israel on this board but I'm confident in saying that murdering American Jews for being Jews is anti-Semitic and that Al Sharpton is a racist for being involved with it.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:00
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Obdicut posted:I've already said that the cop should have been immediately arrested, and that the shooting appears to be completely unjustifiable. Obviously he should have a defense, but given what has been presented already, I think the officer is probably guilty of homicide and should be imprisoned. We already have one thread that's full of you whining about being "misrepresented" whenever someone responds to one of your 15 different hopscotch positions. In this one, let's say that no one is going to fix the fact that "the justice system in the US is systemically racist" through protests this week in Ferguson, and the goal has to be to hold the specific cops who shot Michael Brown and used violence against peaceful protestors accountable. Turning it into something unattainable is just a way of making sure that doesn't happen, and your previous insistence on never holding individual cops accountable belies your claim to have another agenda now.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:02
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meat sweats posted:Oh great, here comes another session of "don't ever punish a cop for being a murderer until you've rewritten the Constitution, replaced the Supreme Court with nine Noam Chomskys, and re-educated every American about critical race theory -- that's scapegoating" from Realistic Solutions Man Who Is Definitely Not A Cop Apologist. Jesus Christ, just shut the gently caress up dude.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:03
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Obdicut posted:I'm not sure what any of this means, or why you're presenting it as though it's automatically true. Most solutions to racial injustice in the US have come about through court decisions at the state or federal level, not arising through organic community solutions. Al Sharpton has been a civil rights leader/agitator whatever for his whole life: I don't get how he's not 'authentic'. The issues experienced in this community are experienced, broadly, by the black community, of which Sharpton is a part. No, I am not saying that the problem is "whacko police force." The problem is that the effects of the recession on working- and middle-class black communities of north St Louis county have been ignored by the mostly white county government and rising crime is being met with racist all-white police forces instead of effective community-oriented policing which further exacerbates the economic problems. While these problems are mirrored in many communities throughout America, they have to be solved at the local level. As I said before, national solidarity can provide support but local solutions have to come from local voices. Sharpton's voice is "authentic" as a black man talking about civil rights but not as a Ferguson resident who is living in a specific local racial, economic, and political dynamic. Effective change comes from community grass roots.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:07
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meat sweats posted:. In this one, let's say that no one is going to fix the fact that "the justice system in the US is systemically racist" through protests this week in Ferguson, and the goal has to be to hold the specific cops who shot Michael Brown and used violence against peaceful protestors accountable. I agree that should be a goal. I don't think it should be the only goal: I think that this moment should also be used to look at why Michael Brown was shot, and push for things that'd help to stop it from happening. One thing it shows a need for, for example, is mandatory lapel cameras, to focus on the police reform angle. Another thing it demonstrates as a problem is the complete disparity between the racial makeup of the town and the racial makeup of the political class of the town. The only way to 'fix' that, obviously, is elections, and I hope that Ferguson voters will register in the wake of this so that they can elect politicians who represent themselves better; I hope that's true of black voters in general, who are underrepresented in comparison to whites. quote:Turning it into something unattainable is just a way of making sure that doesn't happen, and your previous insistence on never holding individual cops accountable belies your claim to have another agenda now. I've never insisted on not holding individual cops accountable, of course. I do think it's possible to have multiple goals at the same time. For example, when Rosa Parks and the Montgomery Bus Boycott took place, it was not just an attempt to remedy the segregated seating priorities in Montgomery, or even nation-wide, but an attempt to change related segregation in the US. I'm going to stop responding to you in this thread now, because I think I'm only encouraging your hyperbole by giving you attention. If you'd like to continue via PM, I'm perfectly happy to. Stultus Maximus posted:No, I am not saying that the problem is "whacko police force." The problem is that the effects of the recession on working- and middle-class black communities of north St Louis county have been ignored by the mostly white county government and rising crime is being met with racist all-white police forces instead of effective community-oriented policing which further exacerbates the economic problems. While these problems are mirrored in many communities throughout America, they have to be solved at the local level. As I said before, national solidarity can provide support but local solutions have to come from local voices. Sharpton's voice is "authentic" as a black man talking about civil rights but not as a Ferguson resident who is living in a specific local racial, economic, and political dynamic. Effective change comes from community grass roots. What do you mean by 'solved at the local level'? What would a local solution look like? I don't think there's any quick or easy solution, and I think that since the problem is, as you say, a widespread economic one, that a lot of the solution lies in widespread solutions: improving educational access in black-majority communities, raising the minimum wage, fixing welfare benefits and other forms of assistance, etc. What can be done at the purely local level as a solution to the problems? If it's 'electing a better government', I completely agree, but i don't see how Sharpton's presence would in any way hinder that. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 16:13
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Stultus Maximus posted:No, I am not saying that the problem is "whacko police force." The problem is that the effects of the recession on working- and middle-class black communities of north St Louis county have been ignored by the mostly white county government and rising crime is being met with racist all-white police forces instead of effective community-oriented policing which further exacerbates the economic problems. While these problems are mirrored in many communities throughout America, they have to be solved at the local level. As I said before, national solidarity can provide support but local solutions have to come from local voices. Sharpton's voice is "authentic" as a black man talking about civil rights but not as a Ferguson resident who is living in a specific local racial, economic, and political dynamic. Effective change comes from community grass roots. What if a local community organisation wishes a national organisation takes the lead on matters such as addressing national media or using deeper institutional expertise and resources to better respond to local issues? What if the local grassroots population fears local organisation is not up to the task or that it is compromised? Are they allowed to invite national bodies in to take the lead?
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Aug 13, 2014 16:15
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meat sweats posted:Oh great, here comes another session of "don't ever punish a cop for being a murderer until you've rewritten the Constitution, replaced the Supreme Court with nine Noam Chomskys, and re-educated every American about critical race theory -- that's scapegoating" from Realistic Solutions Man Who Is Definitely Not A Cop Apologist. This is a standard line from liberals. It's also the excuse they use to justify volunteer military members killing innocent people.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:19
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Tezzor posted:This is a standard line from liberals. It's also the excuse they use to justify volunteer military members killing innocent people. Huh. Obdicut posted:I've already said that the cop should have been immediately arrested, and that the shooting appears to be completely unjustifiable. Obviously he should have a defense, but given what has been presented already, I think the officer is probably guilty of homicide and should be imprisoned.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:21
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Obdicut posted:Huh. Nope. It's important to be vigilant against crying about how victimizers are actually the victimized however.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:26
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meat sweats posted:Sorry, were we talking about Israel? I was talking about the Jews in New York who were murdered at the instigation and, in one case, the direct order of Al Sharpton. I've never posted anything about Israel on this board but I'm confident in saying that murdering American Jews for being Jews is anti-Semitic and that Al Sharpton is a racist for being involved with it. You know what you were implying with your insinuation that D&D cheers on the death of Jews. Please provide evidence that Al Sharpton ever called for the murder of one or indirectly caused such.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:27
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Stultus Maximus posted:No, I am not saying that the problem is "whacko police force." The problem is that the effects of the recession on working- and middle-class black communities of north St Louis county have been ignored by the mostly white county government and rising crime is being met with racist all-white police forces instead of effective community-oriented policing which further exacerbates the economic problems. While these problems are mirrored in many communities throughout America, they have to be solved at the local level. As I said before, national solidarity can provide support but local solutions have to come from local voices. Sharpton's voice is "authentic" as a black man talking about civil rights but not as a Ferguson resident who is living in a specific local racial, economic, and political dynamic. Effective change comes from community grass roots. If 'local voices' were at all interested in doing good for Ferguson, we wouldn't have a 95% white police force terrorizing a 66% black town. In the overall scope of the picture, the worse black people do in one neighborhood, the better white people do in another neighborhood, because the unemployment, poverty and crime linked to it all get localized into one area and keeps other areas nicer. Local voices aren't going to change that because it's a system that already works well for the majority. Saying that we shouldn't have outside national pressure on a system that's already shown it doesn't give a poo poo about the people of Ferguson is just asking for status quo. greatn posted:You know what you were implying with your insinuation that D&D cheers on the death of Jews. Please provide residence that still Sharpton ever called for the murder of one or indirectly caused such. Ignore list & move on the troll hasn't had one single non-disingenuous post this entire thread.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:28
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I just want to say that I fully agree that the Freedom Riders never should have done what they did, and instead left control to the locals. Same thing with those meddling Yankee carpetbaggers. I'm sorry, I can't do it. It's just so monumentally loving retarded to believe that something like the Civil Rights Act could have been accomplished at the local level only.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:37
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I don't post much at all around here. Al Sharpton would be a better influence if he didn't have a history of waiting for news groups to create a big issue on race relations before making an appearance, while ignoring the plight of people suffering under constant harm from terrible government policies in crime-ridden cities such as Detroit and the war zone of Chicago, where hundreds of people have died so far.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:40
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Scalding Coffee posted:I don't post much at all around here. Al Sharpton would be a better influence if he doesn't wait for news groups to create a big issue on race relations before making an appearance, while ignoring the plight of people suffering under constant harm from terrible government policies in crime-ridden cities such as Detroit and the war zone of Chicago, where hundreds of people have died so far. IIRC St. Louis has a higher murder rate than Chicago, fwiw.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:41
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