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NEED TOILET PAPER posted:CLICK HERE FOR THE SECRET TO FLYING!! ONE WEIRD TRICK THAT F35s HATE It's called having a competent research department/not being a scam.
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Aug 23, 2014 11:04
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You try having a supply chain with 435 different facilities and see how well your plane flies. Priorities, man.
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Aug 23, 2014 14:18
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The X-man cometh posted:You try having a supply chain with 435 different facilities and see how well your plane flies. I thought the main issue was just the VTOL stuff, the rest of the plane would be fine sans that.
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Aug 23, 2014 14:30
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computer parts posted:I thought the main issue was just the VTOL stuff, the rest of the plane would be fine sans that. It would probably (maybe) only be a normal level of hosed up boondoggle procurement without the VTOL stuff. Like how the F-22's stealth only works when it's not raining, or how one of the LCS competitors wasn't given the proper hull coating and started rusting as soon as it hit the water.
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Aug 23, 2014 14:43
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BiggerBoat posted:I'll tell you later. 
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Aug 23, 2014 14:55
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computer parts posted:I thought the main issue was just the VTOL stuff, the rest of the plane would be fine sans that. The real problem behind the development of the F-35 is that when you get down to it, nearly every program requirement attached to it is incompatible with another requirement. They want it to be a bomb truck to replace the F-16 and F-18, but they also want it to be stealthy-which can't work unless you have huge internal weapon bays to store the radar-reflective weapons inside the radar-absorbent body, which is impossible to accomplish in a fighter-meaning that each mission is a decision as to whether they want the plane to be stealthy or efficient. They want it to be flown by the Air Force and the Navy, but both of those services have entirely different mission requirements and haven't flown the same plane since the F-4C back in the '60s. And, of course, VTOL is an incredibly stupid requirement that requires huge compromises in the airframe to accomplish. I honestly can't blame LockMart that much for the program costing so much and taking so long considering that the proposal is literally self-contradictory at practically every point (Though they're still scummy, don't get me wrong). That it flies at all and (Reportedly) flies well is a miracle unto itself, but it is sort of funny that the plane everyone wanted to axe the F-22 in favor of (Which itself had a much more sensible and achievable design plan) has turned into that much more of a hassle.
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Aug 23, 2014 14:59
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It's basically https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA but even more expensive and asinine.
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Aug 23, 2014 15:33
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computer parts posted:I thought the main issue was just the VTOL stuff, the rest of the plane would be fine sans that. Imagine if someone strapped wings to bradley.flv and tried to sell it to every branch simultaneously. That's the F-35. Also load bearing canopy.
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Aug 23, 2014 15:36
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Here's the guy who was one of the main brains behind both the A-10 and the F-16 discussing why the F-35 is a shittastic plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQB4W8C0rZI
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Aug 23, 2014 15:37
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GROVER CURES HOUSE posted:Imagine if someone strapped wings to bradley.flv and tried to sell it to every branch simultaneously. Well, the A-10 is what happened when they strapped wings onto a Sherman tank, and that worked out fine.
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Aug 23, 2014 15:59
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Necc0 posted:It's basically If anyone hasn't seen this film, you really should. It's a very accurate portrayal of the development process.
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Aug 23, 2014 16:29
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Amused to Death posted:Here's the guy who was one of the main brains behind both the A-10 and the F-16 discussing why the F-35 is a shittastic plane I think that's the guy who also thought the F-16 should only ever have two sidewinders and a gun so he's probably not the greatest authority on the subject.
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Aug 23, 2014 18:16
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That video was lampooned pretty hard on aerospace-nerd forums, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Aug 23, 2014 18:32
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I think that's the guy who also thought the F-16 should only ever have two sidewinders and a gun so he's probably not the greatest authority on the subject. Considering that a f-16 with only two sidewinders and a gun would still be more effective than the f-35 I'll give him a pass.
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Aug 23, 2014 18:34
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Yeah, if you want to see what real plane nerds and Air Force personnel think of the subject, the Airpower/Cold War thread in TFR and the Aeronautical Insanity thread in AI are great resources on the topic.
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Aug 23, 2014 18:39
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Considering that a f-16 with only two sidewinders and a gun would still be more effective than the f-35 I'll give him a pass. Funnily enough the F-35 would actually be stealthy with that loadout (Since it does have internal weapons bays, just not enough of them to carry enough ordnance to carry out the bomb-truck role it's supposed to be replacing the F-16/F/A-18 in), so that's probably the one configuration it actually beats the F-16 hands-down.
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Aug 23, 2014 18:41
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Funnily enough the F-35 would actually be stealthy with that loadout (Since it does have internal weapons bays, just not enough of them to carry enough ordnance to carry out the bomb-truck role it's supposed to be replacing the F-16/F/A-18 in), so that's probably the one configuration it actually beats the F-16 hands-down. ... if it could fly without the engine flying apart
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Aug 23, 2014 18:44
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Necc0 posted:It's basically
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Aug 23, 2014 18:45
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Samurai Sanders posted:I guess it's only a waste of time and money if you consider its goal to produce something that will actually be used. If you consider its goal to keep those three general assholes in their job as long as possible without actually doing anything, it's a great success! The goal was to make a poo poo ton of money off the US taxpayer. Mission accomplished baby! 
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Aug 23, 2014 18:54
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The real problem behind the development of the F-35 is that when you get down to it, nearly every program requirement attached to it is incompatible with another requirement. They want it to be a bomb truck to replace the F-16 and F-18, but they also want it to be stealthy-which can't work unless you have huge internal weapon bays to store the radar-reflective weapons inside the radar-absorbent body, which is impossible to accomplish in a fighter-meaning that each mission is a decision as to whether they want the plane to be stealthy or efficient. They want it to be flown by the Air Force and the Navy, but both of those services have entirely different mission requirements and haven't flown the same plane since the F-4C back in the '60s. And, of course, VTOL is an incredibly stupid requirement that requires huge compromises in the airframe to accomplish. I honestly can't blame LockMart that much for the program costing so much and taking so long considering that the proposal is literally self-contradictory at practically every point (Though they're still scummy, don't get me wrong). That it flies at all and (Reportedly) flies well is a miracle unto itself, but it is sort of funny that the plane everyone wanted to axe the F-22 in favor of (Which itself had a much more sensible and achievable design plan) has turned into that much more of a hassle. Whomever came up with the F-35 plan originally should have a shrine built to them in the name of capitalism. It's such an amazing scam and brilliantly setup so that it's likely we will never see funding pulled from it even when they're still trying to make it work 30 years and 10s of trillions of dollars from now, when everyone else has better poo poo than it at a fraction of the price.
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Aug 23, 2014 18:58
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Evil Fluffy posted:Whomever came up with the F-35 plan originally should have a shrine built to them in the name of capitalism. It's such an amazing scam and brilliantly setup so that it's likely we will never see funding pulled from it even when they're still trying to make it work 30 years and 10s of trillions of dollars from now, when everyone else has better poo poo than it at a fraction of the price.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:01
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Samurai Sanders posted:Great, now my mind is going over what that shrine to capitalism would look like, what would be its fetish objects and so on. The almighty dollar of course, but also something that represents blow and hookers I think. What kind of ritual action would be performed in front of it? Mass sacrifice, probably.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:03
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Samurai Sanders posted:Great, now my mind is going over what that shrine to capitalism would look like, what would be its fetish objects and so on. The almighty dollar of course, but also something that represents blow and hookers I think. What kind of ritual action would be performed in front of it? Ronald Reagan, blessed his name, choking a penniless child with their own bootstraps.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:07
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I was thinking something more small-scale, which can go next to the water cooler in an office or something, and you have to do a quick prayer to before you start your day. Maybe a small upward action with both hands to represent the bootstrap pulling action, and murmur the name of Reagan, something like that.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:10
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Samurai Sanders posted:Great, now my mind is going over what that shrine to capitalism would look like, what would be its fetish objects and so on. The almighty dollar of course, but also something that represents blow and hookers I think. What kind of ritual action would be performed in front of it? It would be made in all 50 states and be permanently half built because of constant redesigns.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:13
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Samurai Sanders posted:Great, now my mind is going over what that shrine to capitalism would look like, what would be its fetish objects and so on. The almighty dollar of course, but also something that represents blow and hookers I think. What kind of ritual action would be performed in front of it? This coke is the body of Mammon.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:15
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Samurai Sanders posted:I was thinking something more small-scale, which can go next to the water cooler in an office or something, and you have to do a quick prayer to before you start your day. Maybe a small upward action with both hands to represent the bootstrap pulling action, and murmur the name of Reagan, something like that. Needs a blood sacrifice of some sort in there.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:18
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New Division posted:Needs a blood sacrifice of some sort in there.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:21
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What role was this plane supposed to fill, that isn't already being filled? Why did they justify it's development? And why, after all the drama and politics, did they continue? Is the technology really that in demand? Or is that not even part of the equation? (all about money, prestige, etc.)
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Aug 23, 2014 19:23
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Money, dickwaving, and the fighter mafia for the most part.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:25
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Novikov posted:What role was this plane supposed to fill, that isn't already being filled? Why did they justify it's development? And why, after all the drama and politics, did they continue? As I remember, the original idea way back when was that the F22 and F35 would be next-generation answers for the roles currently filled by the F15 and F16, respectively ie: the former of each pair would be the world-beating-but-more-expensive air superiority fighter whereas latter of each would be less expensive more numerous multi-role fighters. But I could be wrong about that, and even if not it's long since ceased to be all that relevant as the F22 has its own problems and the F35 has been recast as "do everything, all the time, for everybody." Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Aug 23, 2014 |
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Aug 23, 2014 19:26
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The market dictates that we must always get a new, better thing to replace the thing we have.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:26
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Samurai Sanders posted:Great, now my mind is going over what that shrine to capitalism would look like, what would be its fetish objects and so on. The almighty dollar of course, but also something that represents blow and hookers I think. What kind of ritual action would be performed in front of it? Just go to the mall.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:34
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Samurai Sanders posted:Great, now my mind is going over what that shrine to capitalism would look like, what would be its fetish objects and so on. The almighty dollar of course, but also something that represents blow and hookers I think. What kind of ritual action would be performed in front of it? Personally, I always figured that the shrine to capitalism would look like Spencer's Gifts.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:44
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Novikov posted:What role was this plane supposed to fill The get-lockmart-a-million-dollars-to-replace-the-stealth-coating*-after-a-technician-opens-a-panel-for-maintenance role. *stealth is bullshit marketing
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Aug 23, 2014 19:46
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Novikov posted:What role was this plane supposed to fill, that isn't already being filled? Why did they justify it's development? And why, after all the drama and politics, did they continue? It's supposed to fill ALL the roles performed by current fighters, fighter-bombers, and attack aircraft, land and sea based. By buying massive numbers of these planes and using them for everything (as well as having all of our allies use them) we can achieve huge savings through economies of scale, while simultaneously replacing aging Cold War planes with superior ~*fifth generation*~ stealth planes. If this sounds retarded and untrue to you that's probably because it is, but that's more or less the sales pitch.
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Aug 23, 2014 19:52
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Samurai Sanders posted:Great, now my mind is going over what that shrine to capitalism would look like, what would be its fetish objects and so on. The almighty dollar of course, but also something that represents blow and hookers I think. What kind of ritual action would be performed in front of it? Nothing will ever top the evangelical led prayer at the literal golden calf* on Wall St.  *ok so it is a bull. That's just a grown up calf.
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Aug 23, 2014 20:05
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Shifty Pony posted:Nothing will ever top the evangelical led prayer at the literal golden calf* on Wall St.
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Aug 23, 2014 20:07
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Novikov posted:What role was this plane supposed to fill, that isn't already being filled? Why did they justify it's development? And why, after all the drama and politics, did they continue? It was supposed to be able to do a variety of jobs--which, I want to say, is why it's not dumb that it can't be a stealthy bomb truck: it can carry a little ordinance and be stealthy or carry a lot of ordinance and not be stealthy, and the 'little ordinance and be stealthy' is better than our current aircraft can do. But it was supposed to be able to do a variety of jobs--maybe not as good as a purpose-built aircraft, but good enough--for less money than it would cost to build a lot of different new purpose-built aircraft. And that's not a new idea, it's already what the F16 was and is--not the best at anything, but able to do everything, inexpensively. And we've sold the F16 to many of our allies, and it serves them well. The F35 is... not that. It's become stupid expensive, so we can't sell it abroad, and it doesn't even loving work right.
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Aug 23, 2014 20:56
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Samurai Sanders posted:Great, now my mind is going over what that shrine to capitalism would look like, what would be its fetish objects and so on. The almighty dollar of course, but also something that represents blow and hookers I think. What kind of ritual action would be performed in front of it? I have no idea what to google to find it but there's a drawing that's a giant elephant and donkey loving each other in the rear end on a stage and ejaculating money all over a bunch of other, smaller donkeys and elephants dressed as bankers all loving each other as well
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Aug 23, 2014 21:23
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