No Gravitas Allowed -- The Iain [M.] Banks thread

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > No Gravitas Allowed -- The Iain [M.] Banks thread

Taeke: Feb 2, 2010

You all make me want to reread the entire collection, and I just haven't got the time.

Damnit.

Maybe I can slip one through in the coming year, the rest will just have to wait.

# ? Sep 22, 2014 23:48

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:27

GenVec: Mar 17, 2010

Nektu posted:

I guess the SC minds just came to the conclusion that the best way to help the Chelgrians was to remove the people that had the responsibility for trying to do a gigadeath crime from power. And to do it in a way that would discourage any copycat from trying that poo poo again.

(yes, the ~~Culture~~ minds can be arrogant assholes)

If I had to choose between interpreting the end of Look to Windward as either a weighty collection of Minds deciding to employ a terror weapon to 'get revenge' on the Chelgrians responsible for the plot, or the very same conspirators who tried to screw the Culture in the first place wrapping up loose ends, I would choose the former. The complete defeat of the sabotage attempt is enough of a 'Don't gently caress with the Culture' statement without skinning their enemies alive on video.

Gravitas' Shortfall's reservations not withstanding, the suggestion by Masaq orbital that other Culture minds might have been responsible for the plot means that the E-Dust assassin may very well have been the product of some truly deranged Culture cabal trying to cover its tracks - think of the Interesting Times Gang on steroids. The "message" it was sending might very well have been to other Minds considering an investigation of the affair, intimidating them away from looking into it too deeply. Recall how the Shoot Them Later seemed genuinely concerned for its existence once it had uncovered the plot of the Interesting Times Gang in Excession; this might have been an attempt to create a similar impression.

I can't think of any action by an SC agent in the book that would be remotely comparable to the assassin other than the Meatfucker, and we see how the rest of the Culture felt about that.

# ? Sep 23, 2014 01:41

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

GenVec posted:

The complete defeat of the sabotage attempt is enough of a 'Don't gently caress with the Culture' statement without skinning their enemies alive on video.

Not really; it would mean that people would feel free to be able to keep on trying with no real consequences to their actions.

# ? Sep 23, 2014 01:52

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

The Culture is a smart, critical take on the dream of liberal utopia, and Banks is wise enough to know that a common part of this dream is the fantasy of justified, righteous, satisfying retaliation against an ignorant and regressive foe who really Has It Coming. I think that ending is supposed to make the reader uncomfortable by tempting them to cheer along - most readers are probably on fhe Culture's team, and that comes with a desire to see the Culture demonstrate its superiority.

# ? Sep 23, 2014 02:56

Lasting Damage: Feb 26, 2006; Fallen Rib

Regarding the end of Look to Windward:

I'm pretty sure the edust assassin was given the ultimate decision on whether or not to take out the conspirators. How does that square with the idea that its some how part of a plot by a renegade, ITG-like group? If the purpose of killing the Chel conspirators is to tie up loose ends, then why would these hypothetical renegades leave the door open for their weapon to back out of the job?

Passing the buck to your own weapon sounds more like something a morally troubled or indecisive SC committee would do, rather than some hardcore Culture renegades trying to teach their peers a lesson.

# ? Sep 23, 2014 03:47

Nektu: Jul 4, 2007; FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK; Cybernetic Crumb

GenVec posted:

If I had to choose between interpreting the end of Look to Windward as either a weighty collection of Minds deciding to employ a terror weapon to 'get revenge' on the Chelgrians responsible for the plot, or the very same conspirators who tried to screw the Culture in the first place wrapping up loose ends, I would choose the former. The complete defeat of the sabotage attempt is enough of a 'Don't gently caress with the Culture' statement without skinning their enemies alive on video.

Wasn't that white-furred killer dropped from the same balcony that he dropped that servant from? I always though that such an "ironic" killing hinted more towards SCs involvement than towards someone wrapping up loose ends. I saw that as a strong "We see everything, we know everything. And if you gently caress with us, you will get hosed" message.

GenVec posted:

I can't think of any action by an SC agent in the book that would be remotely comparable to the assassin other than the Meatfucker, and we see how the rest of the Culture felt about that.

That is true, yes. On the other hand we do see occasional flashes of cruelty from drones. For example that flashback-scene in "Use of weapons" where the drone attending to Diziet Sma gleefully and savagely butchers the beduines attacking her. The ex-SC drone in "Player of games" is another example of a drone which behaves disturbingly human (it lashes out at others in anger after SC basically amputated parts of his body because it was not up to their standards).

The interesting times gang in excession is another example where minds seem almost human in the way they make bad decisions.

I think I start seeing your point. poo poo does happen (even in the culture), but how would the public react?

Nektu fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Sep 23, 2014

# ? Sep 23, 2014 08:06

Yeah Man: Oct 9, 2011; And if you had, you know, a huge killer robot at your command, yeah, that would just clutter things up; and a lesser person might want that kind of overwhelming force on their side, but you know - where's the challenge in that?

Nektu posted:

That is true, yes. On the other hand we do see occasional flashes of cruelty from drones. For example that flashback-scene in "Use of weapons" where the drone attending to Diziet Sma gleefully and savagely butchers the beduines attacking her. The ex-SC drone in "Player of games" is another example of a drone which behaves disturbingly human (it lashes out at others in anger after SC basically amputated parts of his body because it was not up to their standards).

Although the ex-SC drone isn't really ex-SC to begin with. However, the fact that its behavior goes uncommented other general disgust at its behavior does imply that such occurrences aren't unknown.

# ? Sep 23, 2014 09:01

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

GenVec posted:

I can't think of any action by an SC agent in the book that would be remotely comparable to the assassin other than the Meatfucker, and we see how the rest of the Culture felt about that.

Falling Outside The Normal Moral Constraints (from Surface Detail) would be more than capable of those acts, and doesn't it use the intelligent tattoo to kill Veppers in a fairly horrific fashion? I may be wrong though, it's been a while since I read it.

# ? Sep 23, 2014 10:04

Barry Foster: Dec 24, 2007; What is going wrong with that one (face is longer than it should be)

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

Falling Outside The Normal Moral Constraints (from Surface Detail) would be more than capable of those acts, and doesn't it use the intelligent tattoo to kill Veppers in a fairly horrific fashion? I may be wrong though, it's been a while since I read it.

That's exactly what happens. Don't let the Minds fool you into thinking they're infinitely wise and benevolent.

(Of course, all these moral failings and human like emotional displays are to make them interesting and relatable characters to us meatbags. An actually godlike AI would be pretty much impossible to write or read about)

# ? Sep 23, 2014 14:18

kujeger: Feb 19, 2004; OH YES HA HA

Barry Foster posted:

That's exactly what happens. Don't let the Minds fool you into thinking they're infinitely wise and benevolent.

(Of course, all these moral failings and human like emotional displays are to make them interesting and relatable characters to us meatbags. An actually godlike AI would be pretty much impossible to write or read about)

I also like that Banks made a fairly good in-universe explaination: Minds that are not designed with these failings immediately sublime, and everybody else are pretty miffed at this.

# ? Sep 23, 2014 15:31

GenVec: Mar 17, 2010

Lasting Damage posted:

Regarding the end of Look to Windward:

I'm pretty sure the edust assassin was given the ultimate decision on whether or not to take out the conspirators. How does that square with the idea that its some how part of a plot by a renegade, ITG-like group? If the purpose of killing the Chel conspirators is to tie up loose ends, then why would these hypothetical renegades leave the door open for their weapon to back out of the job?

Passing the buck to your own weapon sounds more like something a morally troubled or indecisive SC committee would do, rather than some hardcore Culture renegades trying to teach their peers a lesson.

Would a decision with such wide-ranging political implications really be left in the hands of a single entity, particularly one who had been designed with such a bloody purpose? There seems to be a reason why the important decisions in the Culture are made mostly by GSVs rather than ROUs - the aggression and unpredictability of the latter leave them poorly equipped for a decision making role, and I can't imagine an assassin-bot would be any more trusted with major decisions. And if they were so conflicted about it, why carry it out with such extreme brutality? It would seem odd that the assassin would be given the choice to either not kill them, or kill them in such a deplorable way.

Nektu posted:

Wasn't that white-furred killer dropped from the same balcony that he dropped that servant from? I always though that such an "ironic" killing hinted more towards SCs involvement than towards someone wrapping up loose ends.

That's an interesting thought - I certainly hadn't noticed the poetry of his death. However (and you can correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the books in front of me) I don't think the double agent was even aboard Quilan at that point. So who would tell SC about the event? Unless you just assume that SC has just saturated Chell with spy drones - in which case, why even bother with a double agent at all?

Nektu posted:

That is true, yes. On the other hand we do see occasional flashes of cruelty from drones. For example that flashback-scene in "Use of weapons" where the drone attending to Diziet Sma gleefully and savagely butchers the beduines attacking her. The ex-SC drone in "Player of games" is another example of a drone which behaves disturbingly human (it lashes out at others in anger after SC basically amputated parts of his body because it was not up to their standards).

Sma's drone was certainly a little too gleeful in that scene - but killing your enemies quickly and efficiently seems very different from brutally torturing them to death. There are a number of warships who take undisguised pride in their work, but none seem prone to bouts of cruelty. Recall the scene in Excession where the ROU Heavy Messing puts the Affronter captain quickly out of his misery (despite knowing he was responsible for hijacking a Culture fleet and murdering culture citizens) rather than let him die painfully in space.

As for Player of Games, I was under the impression that Mehrin Skel's bizarre behavior during Player of Games was merely a ruse to ensnare Gurgeh. Given the rapidity that he was 'reinstated' to SC and the important role he played in blackmailing Gurgeh into taking up SC's offer, it felt like he was never actually expelled from SC at all.

In the end, it seems more than coincidental that Look to Windward's penultimate scene includes a discussion on how rogue elements of the Culture might have been responsible for the attempted attack, followed almost immediately by a "Culture Assassin/Terror-Weapon" arriving on Chell to carry out actions deeply at odds with Culture values; comparable only to the actions of a GCU which was utterly ostracized for its actions.

Although this is just a personal impression, I feel like Banks was setting up for a darker tone in future works - possibly one where the Culture's supremacy would be severely challenged be both internal dissent and external factors. Look to Windward accomplishes this in a couple ways: by suggesting that a rogue group of Minds might be trying to "toughen up" the Culture in preparation for a future conflict, by showing the extreme lengths they might go to (which could very well cause a major split in the Culture, comparable to the beginning of the Idiran war), and finally in the epilogue by stating outright that the Culture doesn't last forever - the Behemethor makes it clear that they vanished millions of years ago.

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

Falling Outside The Normal Moral Constraints (from Surface Detail) would be more than capable of those acts, and doesn't it use the intelligent tattoo to kill Veppers in a fairly horrific fashion? I may be wrong though, it's been a while since I read it.

That may be true - I admit that Surface Detail wasn't my favorite, and it's been a while since I've read it.

GenVec fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Sep 23, 2014

# ? Sep 23, 2014 18:31

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

I just reread my second hand copy of Feersum Endjinn and noticed that it's signed Iain M. Banks in the front. For some reason that made me sad, thinking he's not about to sign any more books.

Also reminded me I need to reread Against A Dark Background.

# ? Sep 23, 2014 20:07

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

GenVec posted:

In the end, it seems more than coincidental that Look to Windward's penultimate scene includes a discussion on how rogue elements of the Culture might have been responsible for the attempted attack, followed almost immediately by a "Culture Assassin/Terror-Weapon" arriving on Chell to carry out actions deeply at odds with Culture values; comparable only to the actions of a GCU which was utterly ostracized for its actions.

The reasons for the meat fucker's ostracization (or however you spell it) were completely different to the assassin. The MF read peoples minds and robbed them of their privacy, the assassin killed some criminals violently. You're comparing apples to the ride of the Valkyries.

Also I hate to break it to you but the culture uses calculated brutality and violence all the time, when the ends justify the means. That's an overarching theme throughout the whole series, so I don't understand why you don't accept the assassin was culture, especially given that it flat out states it in the text.
When you have to do as much mental jujitsu as you are now to justify some reading of the text maybe it's time to rethink your position?

# ? Sep 23, 2014 20:51

The Dark One: Aug 19, 2005; I'm your friend and I'm not going to just stand by and let you do this!

GenVec posted:

That's an interesting thought - I certainly hadn't noticed the poetry of his death. However (and you can correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the books in front of me) I don't think the double agent was even aboard Quilan at that point. So who would tell SC about the event? Unless you just assume that SC has just saturated Chell with spy drones - in which case, why even bother with a double agent at all?

We already know that Huyler could intercept Quilan's motor control. It could be that Chelgrian technicians were lying yet again about how much access that upgraded the soulkeeper had to his thoughts.

GenVec posted:

There are a number of warships who take undisguised pride in their work, but none seem prone to bouts of cruelty. Recall the scene in Excession where the ROU Heavy Messing puts the Affronter captain quickly out of his misery (despite knowing he was responsible for hijacking a Culture fleet and murdering culture citizens) rather than let him die painfully in space.

But then look at how the Killing Time dealt with the ships in the fleet coming from Pittance:

It used its effectors on the Attitude Adjustor, not just to subvert its Mind and gain information about the conspirators, but convincing it that "no death could to be too painful or protracted," then leaving it to kill itself. It only finished the KT's off when its engines were tearing at the "last remaining quanta of its personality and senses."
Then later, "The Killing Time ignored the obvious challenge and temptation of flying straight into their midst and flew past and around, targeting only the fire craft nearest it. They gave a decent account of themselves but it prevailed, dispatching two of them with engine-field implosures. This was, it had always thought, a clean, decent and honorable way to die."

# ? Sep 23, 2014 21:37

GenVec: Mar 17, 2010

awesmoe posted:

The reasons for the meat fucker's ostracization (or however you spell it) were completely different to the assassin. The MF read peoples minds and robbed them of their privacy, the assassin killed some criminals violently. You're comparing apples to the ride of the Valkyries.

Also I hate to break it to you but the culture uses calculated brutality and violence all the time, when the ends justify the means.

Calculated violence, but never wantonly or with maximum cruelty. The difference between the two, as you say, is like comparing apples and Ride of the Valkyries. The only Mind shown to actively inflict suffering as 'retribution' is the Meatfucker (and maybe the ROU from Surface Detail).

awesmoe posted:

When you have to do as much mental jujitsu as you are now to justify some reading of the text maybe it's time to rethink your position?

I'd say it takes more mental jujitsu to imagine the book as clear cut than to acknowledge the ambiguities surrounding the conclusion. We have very strong evidence that there was a third faction enabling the Chelgrians to carry out their plot. We know they were actively taking steps to ensure they weren't being tracked - as Masaq states that SC was unable to follow the source of the wormholes. We also have the statement by Masaq that it feels that a rogue group of Minds might have been behind it.

Any of those alone would be enough to raise questions. The three together make it suspicious as hell, even if the assassin hadn't acted like a Nicaraguan death squad rather than the agent of an anarchist utopia.

Edit:

The Dark One posted:

It used its effectors on the Attitude Adjustor, not just to subvert its Mind and gain information about the conspirators, but convincing it that "no death could to be too painful or protracted," then leaving it to kill itself. It only finished the KT's off when its engines were tearing at the "last remaining quanta of its personality and senses."

You're right, that is interesting, and behavior that would on the surface seem very atypical for the Culture. Torturing the Attitude Adjuster seems even more pointless than brutally murdering the Chelgrians.
I guess it's fair to say that individual Minds can behave sadistically given the proper incentives, and that the E-Dust assassin could have been just an expression of that. However, the three questions I mention above still leave me uncertain.

GenVec fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Sep 23, 2014

# ? Sep 23, 2014 21:45

MeLKoR: Dec 23, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

GenVec posted:

I'd say it takes more mental jujitsu to imagine the book as clear cut than to acknowledge the ambiguities surrounding the conclusion. We have very strong evidence that there was a third faction enabling the Chelgrians to carry out their plot. We know they were actively taking steps to ensure they weren't being tracked - as Masaq states that SC was unable to follow the source of the wormholes. We also have the statement by Masaq that it feels that a rogue group of Minds might have been behind it.

Am I mixing two different books or weren't the Chelgrians in touch with a faction of their society that Sublimed?

# ? Sep 24, 2014 06:30

Strom Cuzewon: Jul 1, 2010

MeLKoR posted:

Am I mixing two different books or weren't the Chelgrians in touch with a faction of their society that Sublimed?

They were, but the was significant help from some mysterious conical floating robots, that look awfully like a PoG style drone suit

# ? Sep 24, 2014 11:20

sandorius: Nov 13, 2013

To add on to the discussion of last bit of Look to Windward (Surface Detail spoilers):

There's a bit when someone warns the GFCF about loving with the Culture, and the GFCF says "Some of that was actually us". It made me wonder if we had already seen something like that, and the assassin at the end of Look to Windward was the one incident that sprang to mind. It always seemed a little off to me, because what's physical pain to a martyr? It came off as being amateurish and inelegant, and I just didn't see it as being effective in discouraging Chelgrian plotting.

Although I must say that the 'tidying up loose ends' interpretation is one that didn't occur to me, and seems quite plausible too.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 19:25

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

I really, really doubt that the e-dust assassin was actually the GFCF. I also don't know why people are bending over backwards to try and prove that the Culture never does ethically dubious things in the cause of the greater good. It's not just subtext, it's plain text.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 19:48

GenVec: Mar 17, 2010

Probably because Banks rarely writes in a straightforward way and there's clues all over the place that something is amiss in that scene, as we've already pointed out.

If you really have an image of SC as the "Space CIA" doing horrendous poo poo to maintain a political advantage for the Culture, it completely undercuts the supposedly deep moral questions of the series.

Nektu posted:

I guess it is a bit like today: most people dont really care and just live their lifes. Those that care enough to think about it either shrug and go "thats life" or start arguing over the internet about how horrible the world is.

I think this is the problem - if you're trapped imagining The Culture like a western democracy, where the morality used to justify overseas interventions is usually just a facade for hard-boiled realism, then maybe the straightforward interpretation of Look to Windward makes more sense. But it doesn't line up with what Banks has said about the Culture, or even with the own internal logic of the series.

GenVec fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Sep 24, 2014

# ? Sep 24, 2014 20:05

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

GenVec posted:

Probably because Banks rarely writes in a straightforward way and there's clues all over the place that something is amiss in that scene, as we've already pointed out.

If you really have an image of SC as the "Space CIA" doing horrendous poo poo to maintain a political advantage for the Culture, it completely undercuts the supposedly deep moral questions of the series.

I think this is the problem - if you're trapped imagining The Culture like a western democracy, where the morality used to justify overseas interventions is usually just a facade for hard-boiled realism, then maybe the straightforward interpretation of Look to Windward makes more sense. But it doesn't like up with what Banks has said about the Culture, or even with the own internal logic of the series.

I think you have the opposite read of most people in this thread, so can you tell me what you think "the deep moral questions" of the series are?

# ? Sep 24, 2014 20:29

Mousepractice: Jan 30, 2005; A pint of plain is your only man

Did anyone here read this year's Banks-influenced Hugo, Nebula, BSFA, Arthur C Clarke and Nebula Award Winner Ann Leckie? It's about space, politics, artificial intelligence, humanity, war, gender, individuality, identity and ethics and it's really good. It also contains several radical action scenes, some mega-architecture and a spot of black humour. If anyone was to take up writing culture novels I'd want it to be her, seriously the best intelligent SF since Iain and all of youse should buy and read it.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 20:36

GenVec: Mar 17, 2010

Seldom Posts posted:

I think you have the opposite read of most people in this thread...

Perhaps, though I've read plenty of debate on this, and it's probably one of the most controversial parts of the the Culture series. It's rather odd if there's actually such a consensus around it here.

Seldom Posts posted:

...can you tell me what you think "the deep moral questions" of the series are?

The question of the morality of liberal interventionism is the most obvious one, as was already brought up.

If the Culture is actually out murdering people to maintain its privileged position in the galaxy, and doesn't hesitate to use terrorism to do it (or Terror Weapons, if you will), then that doesn't fit any model of liberal interventionism that I've ever heard of.

GenVec fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Sep 24, 2014

# ? Sep 24, 2014 20:38

Kesper North: Nov 3, 2011; EMERGENCY POWER TO PARTY

Mousepractice, I did, but I don't see what all the fuss is about. I thought it was okay, but it didn't grab me.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 20:42

Lasting Damage: Feb 26, 2006; Fallen Rib

GenVec posted:

The question of the morality of liberal interventionism is the most obvious one, as was already brought up.

If the Culture is actually out murdering people [bold]to maintain its privileged position[/bold] in the galaxy, and doesn't hesitate to use terrorism to do it (or Terror Weapons, if you will), then that doesn't fit any model of liberal interventionism that I've ever heard of.

No one is suggesting this though? Remember, the Culture's interventionism is rooted in its need for peace of mind. That includes declaring war on an equivatech civilization that was giving them a wide berth, and fighting a war that killed nearly a trillion sentient beings. Just so they could rest easy with the fact they weren't a bunch of "hedonistic busy-bodies".

How is the assassination of a bunch of failed reactionary terrorists all that out of character for a civilization capable of something like the Idiran War?

Quoting this to push home the point:

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

I also don't know why people are bending over backwards to try and prove that the Culture never does ethically dubious things in the cause of the greater good. It's not just subtext, it's plain text.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 22:26

Nektu: Jul 4, 2007; FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK; Cybernetic Crumb

GenVec posted:

Probably because Banks rarely writes in a straightforward way and there's clues all over the place that something is amiss in that scene, as we've already pointed out.

I start to agree - that scene is not nearly as clearcut as I thought up to now.

GenVec posted:

If you really have an image of SC as the "Space CIA" doing horrendous poo poo to maintain a political advantage for the Culture,

I dont think that at all, neither that SC is primarily a space-CIA (although it will take that role if necessary!), nor that "political advantage" is the point of SC. The point of SC is the "greater good" as defined by the minds and their amazing ability to predict future developments with a high degree of accuracy.

Of course we know that minds can be wrong. That they can grieve (and even commit suicide because of that). And the meatfucker even admitted to being (excessively) prideful before it dived into the excession. Even considering that the meatfucker was an extremist, I guess normal minds still have that in them.

SC will however react with drastic measures if the culture is attacked, or a catastrophy is at hand (like that ship that broke into the shellworld, killed a good lot of innocent bystanders while doing so and then suicided into the shellworld-killer).

GenVec posted:

I think this is the problem - if you're trapped imagining The Culture like a western democracy, where the morality used to justify overseas interventions is usually just a facade for hard-boiled realism, then maybe the straightforward interpretation of Look to Windward makes more sense. But it doesn't line up with what Banks has said about the Culture, or even with the own internal logic of the series.

I don't imagine the culture like that at all. I do think that the minds (and as such the humans and drones in contact and SC) are absolutely capable of "hard-boiled realism" should the situation demand it (again: as defined by the minds).

The sole reason that the culture can work as is does, is that humans gave all the important decisions up to the minds. Normal citisens of the culture have absolutely no reason at all to think in the slightest about "hard-boiled realism" - and thats a good thing, because humans would inevitably gently caress up if they start to act on those grounds.

The human population just lives their lifes according to the outline or reason they chose. They will probably influence politics on their orbital or GSV, but regarding the bigger picture their opinions do not matter at all most of the time (I guess the culture would be able to do a grassroot movement to change the mind of the minds regarding some matter - but only if the matter is public, and the timeframe is suitable for the slow humans to form a consensus).
The ones that get bored with that, can apply to contact and "matter" in some bigger way. The ones that are especially flexible (and I guess especially consolidated at the same time) in their moral fiber get invited to SC.

But in the end, only the minds are capable of finding the "right thing" to do for most situations. And even if the right thing can be wrong because minds can be wrong, they are still a million times better than humans would be.
And if a killing is the "right thing" they will absolutely do it. And if the killing has to be horrible to be "right" they will do that too. Someone mentioned the death of that planetary leader who got strangeled (or cut to pieces? I dont remember) by that movable tatoo - that was certainly more cruesome than "bullet to the head and be done with it", although it did not reach "millions of bugs eat you inside out".

Regarding the latter: yea, I begin to see your point. It really seems worse than the stuff SC normally does.

Lasting Damage posted:

How is the assassination of a bunch of failed reactionary terrorists all that out of character for a civilization capable of something like the Idiran War?

I would not put those things into the same bucket. The culture was literally fighting for the survival of their way of life in the iridian war. I guess one can allow even a utopia to defend themselves in a situation like that.

Nektu fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Sep 25, 2014

# ? Sep 24, 2014 22:47

GenVec: Mar 17, 2010

Lasting Damage posted:

Remember, the Culture's interventionism is rooted in its need for peace of mind. That includes declaring war on an equivatech civilization that was giving them a wide berth, and fighting a war that killed nearly a trillion sentient beings.

I'd point out that it was made clear that conflict was thought of as 'inevitable' by both sides decades before it even began, but that's really a whole separate debate.

Lasting Damage posted:

That includes declaring war on an equivatech civilization that was giving them a wide berth, and fighting a war that killed nearly a trillion sentient beings.

Trying to draw moral lessons by comparing the Chelgrian fiasco to the Idiran conflict is almost impossible due to differences in scale.

Lasting Damage posted:

Quoting this to push home the point:

It's a question of what you interpret as 'The Greater Good' - is that for the greater good of the Culture, or for the galaxy at large? If your concept of the Greater Good is limited to the .01% of the galactic population that counts as your affinity group, that's not a very convincing argument. And murdering a bunch of Chelgrians isn't doing anyone any good, regardless of what they might have conspired.

And if they did torture and kill them, why stop there? Why not put them into a Surface Detail-esque hell for all eternity? Wouldn't that be an even better warning? Presumably there are things that SC won't do simply because it's too extreme, and I think skinning a Chelgrian alive would be included in that group.

Lasting Damage posted:

How is the assassination of a bunch of failed reactionary terrorists all that out of character for a civilization capable of something like the Idiran War?

This is a society that doesn't believe in capital punishment, assiduously avoids war, and seeks to limit unnecessary casualties when it does fight. Of course it's out of character. Not to mention that the Chelgrians had very good reason to want revenge after SC killed a few billion of them with its machinations. With the Affront in Excession, there's no suggestion that revenge was taken despite them being party to a similarly dark conspiracy, with arguably more at stake. Perhaps Banks was in a more forgiving mood when he wrote it?

Let me ask you a final question on this subject, just so we don't begin to rehash debates without any clear answer. If the Culture knew drat well that the Chelgrians couldn't have pulled off the conspiracy alone and probably had a higher tech civ pulling the strings, do you actually think they'd kill the only people with direct knowledge of who those puppeteers might be? Does SC seem like the type to be satisfied with knocking off a couple pawns while the actual 'bad guys' run free? Even if you have a very jaded view of what the Minds/SC are capable of, I don't think anyone imagines them to be idiots.

GenVec fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Sep 24, 2014

# ? Sep 24, 2014 22:52

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

Mousepractice posted:

Did anyone here read this year's Banks-influenced Hugo, Nebula, BSFA, Arthur C Clarke and Nebula Award Winner Ann Leckie? It's about space, politics, artificial intelligence, humanity, war, gender, individuality, identity and ethics and it's really good. It also contains several radical action scenes, some mega-architecture and a spot of black humour. If anyone was to take up writing culture novels I'd want it to be her, seriously the best intelligent SF since Iain and all of youse should buy and read it.

I liked Ancillary Justice but I wouldn't really compare it with Banks. Not that I'd compared the two before but it didn't have the same feel at all to me. It is good though and I'm definitely looking forward to the sequel.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 23:09

Those On My Left: Jun 25, 2010

Mousepractice posted:

Did anyone here read this year's Banks-influenced Hugo, Nebula, BSFA, Arthur C Clarke and Nebula Award Winner Ann Leckie? It's about space, politics, artificial intelligence, humanity, war, gender, individuality, identity and ethics and it's really good. It also contains several radical action scenes, some mega-architecture and a spot of black humour. If anyone was to take up writing culture novels I'd want it to be her, seriously the best intelligent SF since Iain and all of youse should buy and read it.

Yeah, I read this, and found it a mixed bag. There were some interesting ideas in there but I found a lot of the digressions kind of boring. Overall I found it to be a very dry book. Reading it actually confirmed something for me: I pretty much need my sci fi to have a sense of humour.

For instance, I've just finished reading The Expanse books by James SA Corey. Very different from Banks. However, one thing I really appreciated is that they actually had me laughing in quite a few places.

If, as a sci-fi author, you can't find any levity in the world that you've created, I'd say you've either created a pretty dubious world, or you're lacking an important skill.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 23:26

Lasting Damage: Feb 26, 2006; Fallen Rib

GenVec posted:

I'd point out that it was made clear that conflict was thought of as 'inevitable' by both sides decades before it even began, but that's really a whole separate debate.

Consider Phlebas posted:

It was, the Culture knew from the start, a religious war in the fullest sense. The Culture went to war to safeguard its own peace of mind: no more.

The first two sentences in the appendices section Titled Reasons: the Culture. Only the Culture thought the war was inevitable. The Reasons: the Idirans section details that the Idirans assumed that some mutually beneficial arrangement could be worked out between them and the Culture, and at worst they would fight, but only briefly.

I guess you could dismiss the Idiran War on the grounds of scale, but I think that's why you're not in agreement with a lot of other posters here. The declaration of war was very clearly written to say something about the character of the Culture. And even if it is totally incomparable, there's plenty other examples throughout the books to demonstrate their willingness to use torture and violence to promote the values they place highest. All by itself, the Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints says a lot just by its mere existence, to say nothing of its actions.

GenVec posted:

And if they did torture and kill them, why stop there? Why not put them into a Surface Detail-esque hell for all eternity? Wouldn't that be an even better warning? Presumably there are things that SC won't do simply because it's too extreme, and I think skinning a Chelgrian alive would be included in that group.

Do I really gotta explain why the two are not morally equivalent? The whole attraction of these books (besides the great writing) and of SC's operations is the splitting of these hairs. So you disagree with how SC went about something. It seems a lot of readers do about one thing or another. It even seems like that was Banks' goal.

GenVec posted:

Let me ask you a final question on this subject, just so we don't begin to rehash debates without any clear answer. If the Culture knew drat well that the Chelgrians couldn't have pulled off the conspiracy alone and probably had a higher tech civ pulling the strings, do you actually think they'd kill the only people with direct knowledge of who those puppeteers might be? Does SC seem like the type to be satisfied with knocking off a couple pawns while the actual 'bad guys' run free? Even if you have a very jaded view of what the Minds/SC are capable of, I don't think anyone imagines them to be idiots.

If the Chelgrian terrorists got help from their Sublimed sister race or an equivalent tech civilization, its possible they're beyond reproach of the Culture. At least, not without provoking a much worse response. The point that SC would be foolish to kill any leads is a good one, but I'm not convinced that the Chelgrian terrorists actually knew anything they didn't already know. I mean, SC had a double agent in their midst from the start.

But I guess I'm not really objecting to the idea that the Chelgrian terrorists got the support from SC renegades, despite my earlier comments. What I'm really trying to say is that their response was not out of character.

# ? Sep 25, 2014 00:35

Eau de MacGowan: May 12, 2009; BRASIL HEXA
2026 tá logo aí

Wasn't Inversions literally this debate?

The series always read to me as a wry take on anarchist fantasies. The average Culture citizen lives the anarchist dream of complete autonomy and wants for nothing, yet it comes at the cost of the Culture, by its very being as a society of trillions, continuously interfering with other societies as a nation state, paradoxical to anarchist doctrine; true anarchy cannot exist beyond the individual.

# ? Sep 25, 2014 09:44

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

Apparently in the sci-fi game Destiny: the records of the mysterious event/invasion that nearly wiped out humanity centuries before show that it was analysed as it happened as being an "OCP" event. Someone was a fan, I guess.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Sep 25, 2014

# ? Sep 25, 2014 14:26

Shockeh: Feb 24, 2009; Now be a dear and
fuck the fuck off.

MikeJF posted:

Apparently in the sci-fi game Destiny's: the records of the mysterious event/invasion that nearly wiped out humanity centuries before show that it was analysed as it happened as being an "OCP" event. Someone was a fan, I guess.

There's a couple of Banks' references in Destiny, apparently.

# ? Sep 25, 2014 14:29

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Yeah those were me.

# ? Sep 25, 2014 14:50

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

General Battuta posted:

Yeah those were me.

Good man.

# ? Sep 25, 2014 15:01

Kesper North: Nov 3, 2011; EMERGENCY POWER TO PARTY

You should put more Banks references in video games.

It is your Destiny.

# ? Sep 25, 2014 15:38

Strom Cuzewon: Jul 1, 2010

MikeJF posted:

Apparently in the sci-fi game Destiny: the records of the mysterious event/invasion that nearly wiped out humanity centuries before show that it was analysed as it happened as being an "OCP" event. Someone was a fan, I guess.

OCP is a legit useful term and as an undergrad I kept catching myself trying to use it in essays on Kuhn.

# ? Sep 25, 2014 16:19

Nektu: Jul 4, 2007; FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK; Cybernetic Crumb

GenVec posted:

It's a question of what you interpret as 'The Greater Good' - is that for the greater good of the Culture, or for the galaxy at large? If your concept of the Greater Good is limited to the .01% of the galactic population that counts as your affinity group, that's not a very convincing argument.

Yea, that is the big question: what do minds see as the greater good?

Regarding the .01% thing - it is a fact that while the Culture is the biggest player among the ~~elder~~ involved civilizations it does not actually control the universe. Do you think that "Culture = Utopia" would imply that the minds have a missionary mission to bring the cultures way of life to all other civilizations? If not, that .01% argument falls apart because the culture is simply only one player among many, and while they can keep their own house clean, they dont have the right to gently caress with other (~~elder~~ involved) civilizations.

Obviously the Culture simply takes that right when confronted with inferior cultures because gently caress it, lets do Good(TM) (and they actually do that, yes).

Unrelated: What do we know about the other ~~elder~~ involved civilizations? Are they also utopias?

GenVec posted:

And murdering a bunch of Chelgrians isn't doing anyone any good, regardless of what they might have conspired.

If a mind calculates that it would strike fear into the heart of one person that would otherwise start other terroristic plots of the same magnitude in the future, it would think its probably a good thing to do.

Unrelated: Why do you think that "Dont gently caress with the culture" got elevated to a proverb that even the other [/quote] involved races respect?

Edit: Because of the iridian war of course :downs:

Edit2: Ok then, elder != involved.

Nektu fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Sep 25, 2014

# ? Sep 25, 2014 18:53

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

Nektu posted:

Unrelated: What do we know about the other elder civilizations? Are they also utopias?

I don't think the Culture counts as an elder civilisation, they're only a few thousand years old and an Involved instead. The elder civs aren't really described in much detail that I remember, kinda left mysterious with the implication that they're too advanced to care that much about the day to day bustle of the younger galactic community. It did seem like something Banks might have had plans to pick up in a later book, like the Sublime in The Hydrogen Sonata. There are a few equivtech races described though, maybe the Nauptre could be considered to have an isolated utopian society.

# ? Sep 25, 2014 19:04

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:27

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

"Elder" in the culture universe tends to mean the ones that have hit the technological peak but instead of subliming have withdrawn from galactic society and possibly gone a bit nuts. The Culture and others like it at the peak of technology (Level 8, as they call it) and have substantial galactic influence are called "Involveds". That'd be things like the Homomda, the Gzilt, the Morthanveld. There are others like the Nauptre that are Level 8 tech-wise but are small and isolated and don't involve themselves.

The Morthanveld (a civilisation on the Culture's level that actually out-populates the Culture) are on the verge of becoming Culture-like - they're bordering on giving AI the last of their full rights and dumping what remains of their money system, and the Minds are treading very carefully with them; not risking the process with any interventionary moves but still perhaps managing their relations with them in a way as to subtly nudge them in that direction.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Sep 25, 2014

# ? Sep 25, 2014 19:08

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > No Gravitas Allowed -- The Iain [M.] Banks thread

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