AIRPOWER/Cold War - Its literally the first two lines of their hymn

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Dejan Bimble: Mar 24, 2008; we're all black friends; Plaster Town Cop

Godholio posted:

While they're basically more precious than gold, they'll be used to the breaking point because everything else is literally already there. Syria actually has/had a reasonable air defense network, so proving the Raptor is effective at kicking in the door on day zero is probably a better idea than launching B-2 sorties from Missouri.

Well they aren't really proving it against Syria's air defense, they negotiated an agreement with the help of Russia for the airstrikes. The radars stayed passive.

Cyrano4747 posted:

You've got to wonder how much that thing has degraded. Not just from the general wear and tear of "being military equipment in a war zone for 3+years" but in terms of the crew capabilities. If there's one thing I've gathered from this thread it's that competent AAA crews take just about as long to train up as your average MD, and I can't imagine that they were prioritizing AAA for manpower when there was a civil war going on.

Yes, one of the main rebel targets in the first phase of the war were air defense bases. They'd destroy radars and take the 23mm guns for mounting on flatbed trucks, either local or provided by Qatar. But Russia has helped them keep their AA credible, they have s-300s and there are rumors about s-400s.

That was back when the no fly zone was still on the table for more than just the areas that could be pretended were near enough turkish and israeli borders. They were doing the early work.

# ? Sep 23, 2014 22:44

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# ? May 25, 2024 22:04

Godholio: Aug 28, 2002; Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

Cyrano4747 posted:

You've got to wonder how much that thing has degraded. Not just from the general wear and tear of "being military equipment in a war zone for 3+years" but in terms of the crew capabilities. If there's one thing I've gathered from this thread it's that competent AAA crews take just about as long to train up as your average MD, and I can't imagine that they were prioritizing AAA for manpower when there was a civil war going on.

Well sure, but what are you willing to risk on "they're probably not that good anymore"? A couple of B-52 crews? A bunch of F-16s?

Igor Strelkov posted:

Well they aren't really proving it against Syria's air defense, they negotiated an agreement with the help of Russia for the airstrikes. The radars stayed passive.

I'm sure their certain destruction at US hands had nothing to do with the results of that negotiation.

# ? Sep 23, 2014 23:01

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Igor Strelkov posted:

But Russia has helped them keep their AA credible, they have s-300s and there are rumors about s-400s.

Syria's air defense is a loving joke outside a tiny area where they consolidated all their cool poo poo. ISIS isn't exactly hanging out in those strongholds.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 01:41

Dejan Bimble: Mar 24, 2008; we're all black friends; Plaster Town Cop

Godholio posted:

Well sure, but what are you willing to risk on "they're probably not that good anymore"? A couple of B-52 crews? A bunch of F-16s?

I'm sure their certain destruction at US hands had nothing to do with the results of that negotiation.

Well, when you're using a country's airspace, which is easier, agreeing to a time and place for clear airspace, or potentially flying against sams and enemy fighters, even if your stuff is better? It only takes one good SAM commander and your fancy stealth plane is in some containers headed to China.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 02:23

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Igor Strelkov posted:

It only takes one good SAM commander and your fancy stealth plane is in some containers headed to China.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 02:28

Godholio: Aug 28, 2002; Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

Igor Strelkov posted:

Well, when you're using a country's airspace, which is easier, agreeing to a time and place for clear airspace, or potentially flying against sams and enemy fighters, even if your stuff is better? It only takes one good SAM commander and your fancy stealth plane is in some containers headed to China.

I'm hopeful the Air Force learned that lesson. The pilot community seems to have done so, from when I've been in planning sessions.

And it still took that dude a week to do it.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 02:46

Mazz: Dec 12, 2012; Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.

I doubt they are flying it permissively like they started to get in Yugoslavia either. There has to be some CJs waiting for the word.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 03:14

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

Without detail in any of the news articles, there are a lot of things the F-22 could have been there for that weren't dropping bombs, including air-air overwatch, sensors and spotting for the TLAMs, or just being in the area to satisfy a PR checkbox.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 05:57

Dejan Bimble: Mar 24, 2008; we're all black friends; Plaster Town Cop

Godholio posted:

I'm hopeful the Air Force learned that lesson. The pilot community seems to have done so, from when I've been in planning sessions.

And it still took that dude a week to do it.

Yeah. I hope the agreement that Russia brokered for use of airspace for the ISIS campaign can lead to more cooperation.http://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/17/reported-us-syrian-accord-on-air-strikes/

quote:

The Obama administration, working through the Russian government, has secured an agreement from the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad to permit U.S. airstrikes against Islamic State targets in parts of Syria, according to a source briefed on the secret arrangements.

Syria is the natural partner against ISIS, if it is actually a war against ISIS and not just an excuse to tick Syria off the neocon kill list.

I've been looking for pictures of the trainers that Syria bought from Russia, and new photos of the refurbished jets with their new laser guided missiles, but I've had no luck. It's really hard to find high res pictures of anything from the government side. Lots of rebel stuff though.

Here's a nicely painted Venezuelan and a scary drone instead.

Dejan Bimble fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Sep 24, 2014

# ? Sep 24, 2014 07:37

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

Igor Strelkov posted:

the neocon kill list.

The quoted article also claims Ukraine is just one big neocon hitjob and references 'the neocon Washington Post.' It does not help with credibility.

Also considering the significant downsides to owing either Russia or Iran favors right now, one hopes any 'deal' is of the "we're coming over the beach, keep the radars and the planes cold unless you want them obliterated" variety. Unfortunately I have low confidence in this.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 08:42

SgtMongoose: Feb 10, 2007

Godholio posted:

All of the military infrastructure we left behind was probably built in the 60s. It's probably made out of asbestos and Topps chewing gum, and the only way we're going to get permission to rebuild is to provide some sweet, sweet construction contracts for the local economy.

Also, a base like that isn't going to be just a basic airfield and airport-like facilities. There's gonna be an armory, various classified/secure areas, vaults, etc.

Having just been to Keflavik, staging P-8's out of there would not be hard. Kef is Iceland's main international airport and plays host to a standing deployment of NATO fighters. The Icelandic Coast Guard has kept all the facilities they still own in good repair and the housing is actually really nice. The money pit would be all the support facilities like enlisted dorms, post office, commissary, MWR stuff, etc. cause that was all turned over to civilian use and is now apartment buildings and businesses. So you either have to start from scratch on all that or buy out a lot of locals. Or just make it a rotating deployment like the fighters and duck all that.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 10:42

Red Crown: Oct 20, 2008; Pretend my finger's a knife.

Snowdens Secret posted:

The quoted article also claims Ukraine is just one big neocon hitjob and references 'the neocon Washington Post.' It does not help with credibility.

Also considering the significant downsides to owing either Russia or Iran favors right now, one hopes any 'deal' is of the "we're coming over the beach, keep the radars and the planes cold unless you want them obliterated" variety. Unfortunately I have low confidence in this.

The President did straight up say that if Assad shoots at our jets, he'll commit forces for regime change. Also, I haven't forgotten about our LCS discussion, I just haven't been working on it for a couple of weeks. Still waiting on the results of the Small Surface Combatant Study.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 13:27

Bruiser: Apr 4, 2007; by Shine

Oh man, how awesome are F-4 Phantoms? What a big, ugly, brute of a plane. Just fuckin' hanging it out there on those fat loving engines. I love it.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 15:29

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

Who ya callin' ugly?

# ? Sep 24, 2014 15:45

That Works: Jul 22, 2006; Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy

Bruiser posted:

Oh man, how awesome are F-4 Phantoms? What a big, ugly, brute of a plane. Just fuckin' hanging it out there on those fat loving engines. I love it.

gently caress yes.

Probably my favorite looking aircraft.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 15:49

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

Wild Weasel!

# ? Sep 24, 2014 16:01

Bruiser: Apr 4, 2007; by Shine

Other than transports, what fixed wing aircraft do the Marines use??

Edit: Harriers and F-35's I suppose.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 16:02

That Works: Jul 22, 2006; Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy

Bruiser posted:

Other than transports, what fixed wing aircraft do the Marines use??

Edit: Harriers and F-35's I suppose.

Hornets too right?

# ? Sep 24, 2014 16:09

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

Bruiser posted:

Other than transports, what fixed wing aircraft do the Marines use??

Edit: Harriers and F-35's I suppose.

Short list here of current USMC aircraft types

1st MAW(Marine Air Wing) out of Okinawa operates Hornets, Prowlers, Harriers.

2nd MAW (Cherry Point) operates Prowlers, Harriers, Hornets, F-35Bs and a loving flock of ospreys.

3rd MAW (Miramar) operates Hornets, F-35B, Harriers.

4th MAW (Ft. Worth) operates Hornets, and Tiger IIs in an adversary role.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 16:15

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

Breaky posted:

Hornets too right?

And the EA-6B.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 16:20

Bruiser: Apr 4, 2007; by Shine

drat. I look like an rear end in a top hat. I didn't realize the Marines operated so many fixed wing aircraft. I thought they mostly did rotary.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 16:23

Pornographic Memory: Dec 17, 2008

Bruiser posted:

drat. I look like an rear end in a top hat. I didn't realize the Marines operated so many fixed wing aircraft. I thought they mostly did rotary.

Yeah you'd think the Navy's army and the Navy's air force could just work together and that'd be that but it turns out the Navy's army apparently needs its own air force.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 16:44

Bruiser: Apr 4, 2007; by Shine

I love how the 2nd largest air force in the world is the US Navy haha.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 16:47

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Bruiser posted:

drat. I look like an rear end in a top hat. I didn't realize the Marines operated so many fixed wing aircraft. I thought they mostly did rotary.

And even though you said except for transports, it's worth mentioning that they even turned those into weapon systems kind of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIodcKSIARU

The griffin delivery is funny looking:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=65d_1406864397

Weapon manufacturer videos have the funniest music.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 16:52

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

So I surf other forums sometimes and they have sponsor's posts. Today I was treated to a short novella on the political and military history of the United States, as retold by Stalin. :ussr:

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/misc.php?do=postrelease&prx_t=U5cBA5rkBAdBUCA&prx_q=711

quote:

�There are three things extremely hard: steel, a diamond, and to know one�s self.�

-- Benjamin Franklin

Every metal has its own properties � and its own reputation. Gold is valuable, lead is malleable, steel conjures up visions of power and strength. Gold�s great if you need a bartering chip or a filling. Lead makes a good bullet. But if you want to forge empires and move nations � or build a strong, durable pickup truck like the all-new 2014 GMC Sierra -- you�re talking about steel.

A happy accident thousands of years ago led some ancient blacksmith to meld iron with carbon under intense heat -- steel fragments dating back 4,000 years have been found in Turkey. Infusing carbon in varying percentages hardens iron and makes it resistant to rust and warping. Protected from corrosion, steel can technically last forever.

As we became more adept at working with metal, steel blazed trails we still follow.

In 1804, the first locomotive rolled through Wales � on wooden rails. The new technology was not an instant hit � the rails wore out quickly. Once steel entered the picture, railroads instantly opened up new vistas for travelers and industry alike.

After 12,000 years of building ships from wood � great since it floats, not so great when cannonballs are flying or fires are raging � 15th Century Japanese craftsmen first hit on the idea of making an iron-clad vessel. It was another 400 years until the USS Monitor and the CSS Virginia squared off in the first ever dual between two all-metal ships in 1862. The battle lasted three days, with neither side able to inflict much damage. After that, steel became the clear choice of shipbuilders for strength and durability.

So when it came time to put shipbuilding to the torture test of surviving underwater � a.k.a. the submarine � craftsmen knew where to look. The first submarines were made of wood, an idea that didn�t last long. When it came time to get serious about submerging sailors at depth with hull pressures approaching 580 pounds per square inch, the strength of steel made it the obvious option.

And not just any steel. Submarines are made of rolled steel, a process that makes the metal even harder and stronger (and the same material that forms the bed of the 2014 GMC Sierra). On submersibles using a double hull (an inner and outer shell, both made of steel) the strength of steel means the exterior hull can be as thin as 2-4 millimeters and still easily withstand pressures at the bottom of the ocean.

By the 20th Century, steel had made its way into every arena of modern life. Cables that held up astonishing bridges. Weapons that wouldn�t rust, or explode in users� hands. Even better weapons, like advanced artillery and tanks. Buildings that stretched so high they coined the term �skyscrapers.� And, perhaps the most enduring application of all, good old American automotive muscle.

What would American automotive history be without steel? In 1913, Edward G. Budd developed the first all-steel automobile body in Philadelphia. The burgeoning auto industry in Detroit latched onto steel as its metal of choice and the rest is history.

And while many modern vehicles are light on steel and long on substitutes, there are still some that rely heavily on the strength and durability of the metal that literally built the modern world.

The all-new 2014 GMC Sierra features a bed made of rolled steel, not stamped, which is commonly used in pickups. Even better, the fully boxed high-strength steel frame not only improves ride and handling, it led to the 2014 Sierra 1500 Series becoming the only pickup to receive a 5-Star Overall Vehicle Score for safety since NHTSA revised its rating criteria with the 2011 model year*.

Amazingly � and contrary to what you would think � the addition of more high-strength steel to the new 2014 Sierra actually reduces overall weight and improves fuel economy, while providing the strength and reliability to handle tough jobs for the long haul.

For 4,000 years, mankind has used steel when strength and durability were of the utmost necessity. Time marches on and technology propels us ever forward, but sometimes old ways are the best ways.

* Government 5-Star Safety Ratings are part of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's (NHTSA's) New Car Assessment Program (https://www.safercar.gov).

.

For reference this is the accompanying advertisement based on the same theme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfyXy1utRcY

For non-AI posters this is also a hilariously massive over-response to Ford's plans to introduce an aluminum heavy F-150 shortly.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 17:04

Effective-Disorder: Nov 13, 2013

Found this recently FOIA'd article from the CIA's internal newsletter "Studies in Intelligence", describing the intelligence buzzword bestiary, circa 1982.

quote:

�The overwhelming majority is the best known species of draft animal used by many analysts to carry the burden of their argument and analysis. Its popularity stems from its versatility: it can believe, support, and advocate. It loves to vote, and polling organizations frequently cite it to support their conclusions.�

The article (with author and illustrator's names redacted) can be found in this PDF:

http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/DOC_0000619161.pdf

# ? Sep 24, 2014 17:08

priznat: Jul 7, 2009; Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Well if I need to dive deep in a fullsize pickup now I know who to go with.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 17:10

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

priznat posted:

Well if I need to dive deep in a fullsize pickup now I know who to go with.

Except the outer hull of a sub doesn't hold pressure.

And the Merrimack was a wooden ship with iron cladding.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 18:00

priznat: Jul 7, 2009; Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

GMC LIES

# ? Sep 24, 2014 18:07

Somebody Awful: Nov 27, 2011; BORN TO DIE
HAIG IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1917
I am trench man
410,757,864,530 SHELLS FIRED

joat mon posted:

And the Merrimack was a wooden ship with iron cladding.

Strictly speaking, Merrimack was a wooden ship and Virginia had the cladding.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 18:22

Snowdens Secret: Dec 29, 2008; Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.

joat mon posted:

Except the outer hull of a sub doesn't hold pressure.

Also IIRC none of the American subs simulated in that commercial or in the water today have double hulls.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 20:05

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Sperglord Actual posted:

Strictly speaking, Merrimack was a wooden ship and Virginia had the cladding.

strictly speaking only traitors acknowledge rebel naming conventions.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 20:42

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

I like how in this video of MV-22s taking off of a carrier deck, the crewman on the deck seems increasingly plaintive with his arm motion signaling that they should take off and go away and stop blasting him with wind rotor wash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMvImoYu4Z4

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

strictly speaking only traitors acknowledge rebel naming conventions.

Yup. Failed rebellions don't get to name things.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 21:01

Somebody Awful: Nov 27, 2011; BORN TO DIE
HAIG IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1917
I am trench man
410,757,864,530 SHELLS FIRED

Take a look at the south today and tell me with a straight face that the rebellion failed.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 21:41

Doctor Grape Ape: Aug 26, 2005; Dammit Doc, I just bought this for you 3 months ago. Try and keep it around for a bit longer this time.

Sperglord Actual posted:

Take a look at the south today and tell me with a straight face that the rebellion failed.

Yup. Now let me get back to whipping my slaves, gotta get that cotton to market!

# ? Sep 24, 2014 21:43

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Doctor Grape Ape posted:

Yup. Now let me get back to whipping my states' rights protected property, gotta get that cotton to market!

Translated for treason apologists.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 21:55

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

Doctor Grape Ape posted:

Yup. Now let me get back to whipping my slaves, gotta get that cotton to market!

No joke the penal system down there is only a step above antebellum slave plantation status. Some plantations have had generations of the same families working as over...prison guards.

# ? Sep 24, 2014 21:58

LostCosmonaut: Feb 15, 2014

Number of Saturn V on display in former confederate states: 4 1/2.

Number of Saturn V on display in non-confederate areas: 1/2.

Checkmate, yankees. :smuggo:

LostCosmonaut fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Sep 25, 2014

# ? Sep 25, 2014 01:50

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

Trying to outsource the second March to the Sea was a bad decision in retrospect.

# ? Sep 25, 2014 02:10

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# ? May 25, 2024 22:04

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

LostCosmonaut posted:

Number of Saturn V on display in former confederate states: 4 1/2.

Number of Saturn V on display in non-confederate areas: 1/2.

Checkmate, yankees.

Orbital mechanics has a treasonous bias?!

# ? Sep 25, 2014 02:54

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