Have humans always had consciousness?

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > General Bullshit > Have humans always had consciousness?

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

Every single thought in your mind is caused by a measurable, predictable, physical event.
It has to be.
How else can I be programmed into my own world where I can have sex with all my favorite videogame characters and childhood cartoons?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:34

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# ? Jun 14, 2024 22:36

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Cardiovorax posted:

But that is exactly what I've been saying. Why are you arguing with me, then?

God but you are an annoying dick. I already said that I don't even care about the answer, because it feels like we do have free will anyway. If you think that being aware of your own limitations is a "religion of powerlessness" then whatever, but at least pay attention.

If that's how you define words then that works, I guess. I figured we were talking about the actual representation that I'm looking at, not the meaning that my mind makes of it.

That's right. I am an annoying dick. You've figured me out. But, at least I don't come to uncomfortable conclusions and then ignore them and any evidence against them despite claiming to be a scientist.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:34

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

Yaldabaoth posted:

Alright then I'll just tie you down and shove a hot poker up your rear end and you won't be able to object because you don't have free will

"I'll just put 1 and 1 to this AND gate and 0 will come out because the AND gate has free will!"

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:35

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

SnowblindFatal posted:

"I'll just put 1 and 1 to this AND gate and 0 will come out because the AND gate has free will!"

That is literally what you're saying.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:35

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

SnowblindFatal posted:

I'm sure it's just a case of miscommunication (lol), but first you were for the idea that we have free will and now you're against it? idgi

also loling at the free will people. They're probably just in denial because their world view is crumbling right behind their eyes. Clutching at straws.

See, that's the thing. People that claim free will is impossible, once you probe them, actually believe in a mysterious thing they call free will which has almost nothing to do with the actual process of decision-making. They also believe that everything is inevitable, lol.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:36

tetsuo: May 12, 2001; I am a shaman, magician

Yaldabaoth posted:

Alright then I'll just tie you down and shove a hot poker up your rear end and you won't be able to object because you don't have free will

it's posts like this that make me suspect you have no idea what free will is supposed to mean

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:38

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Effectronica posted:

That's right. I am an annoying dick. You've figured me out. But, at least I don't come to uncomfortable conclusions and then ignore them and any evidence against them despite claiming to be a scientist.

I have no idea where you would even come to the conclusion that anything I've said is at all a pleasant thought to me.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:38

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Effectronica posted:

See, that's the thing. People that claim free will is impossible, once you probe them, actually believe in a mysterious thing they call free will which has almost nothing to do with the actual process of decision-making. They also believe that everything is inevitable, lol.

Like I said, most of their arguments boil down to "Humans cannot be more than the sum of their parts" Like for example:

quote:

"I'll just put 1 and 1 to this AND gate and 0 will come out because the AND gate has free will!"

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:40

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

hi, i'm sorry to inform, but the neurons in your brain work nothing like digital logic gates. hope that clears some stuff up.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:42

skeletonotherkin: Sep 26, 2014

If theres no free will why does anime exist?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:43

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

tetsuo posted:

it's posts like this that make me suspect you have no idea what free will is supposed to mean

I don't think you do either because you're arguing that you're incapable of free will. How can something that doesn't have free will be aware that it doesn't have it?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:44

monkey: Jan 20, 2004; by zen death robot; Yams Fan

Cardiovorax posted:

If that's how you define words then that works, I guess. I figured we were talking about the actual representation that I'm looking at, not the meaning that my mind makes of it.

My point really is that irrespective of the information they convey, the words physically are a transient configuration of impulses within your monitor, which is how I see the mind / brain relationship. The mind is not the brain but it is not ephemeral either, it is the transient configuration of the brain, or the brain state at any given moment. You can change your mind easily, but changing your brain involves a complex surgical procedure.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:45

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

Yaldabaoth posted:

I don't think you do either because you're arguing that you're incapable of free will. How can something that doesn't have free will be aware that it doesn't have it?

I don't have wings

gently caress i must have wings

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:45

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

Free will is the ability to make your own choices without them constantly being dictated by circumstance.

When you decide to order a cheese burger instead of a chicken sandwich, you're using your free will to make a choice.

Some people would argue that you're not actually making a choice when you do that, some neurons in your brain are firing off and are making you order a cheeseburger over a chicken sandwich, and you actually never made a choice. Those people are retarded.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:47

tetsuo: May 12, 2001; I am a shaman, magician

Yaldabaoth posted:

How can something that doesn't have free will be aware that it doesn't have it?

I can imagine a lot of properties I could, but ultimately don't, possess and be aware of not having them. Why is free will a special case that requires me to have it to be aware of not having it? You've created a paradox without explaining why it's the case.

tetsuo fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Oct 26, 2014

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:50

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Yaldabaoth posted:

I don't think you do either because you're arguing that you're incapable of free will. How can something that doesn't have free will be aware that it doesn't have it?

Why would you assume that they can't be?

monkey posted:

My point really is that irrespective of the information they convey, the words physically are a transient configuration of impulses within your monitor, which is how I see the mind / brain relationship. The mind is not the brain but it is not ephemeral either, it is the transient configuration of the brain, or the brain state at any given moment. You can change your mind easily, but changing your brain involves a complex surgical procedure.

I guess we're just quibbling semantics, then, because I mean the same thing. I was just calling the whole thing "the brain" as a matter of shorthand.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:52

Aves Maria!: Jul 26, 2008; Maybe I'll drown

Dolphin posted:

no, they're not doing that at all. koko is making pseudo-signs for a reward and penny is interpreting them like a preacher interprets glossolalia

Lol you're a fuckin idiot

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:54

hellotoothpaste: Dec 21, 2006; I dare you to call it a perm again..

Cardiovorax posted:

Why would you assume that they can't be?

Why do you answer so many questions with other questions?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:55

tetsuo: May 12, 2001; I am a shaman, magician

hellotoothpaste posted:

Why do you answer so many questions with other questions?

A lot of these questions are phrased in a way of of asking someone to prove a negative or unwind a non-sequitur, it's valid.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:56

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Tsinava posted:

Free will is the ability to make your own choices without them constantly being dictated by circumstance.

When you decide to order a cheese burger instead of a chicken sandwich, you're using your free will to make a choice.

Some people would argue that you're not actually making a choice when you do that, some neurons in your brain are firing off and are making you order a cheeseburger over a chicken sandwich, and you actually never made a choice. Those people are retarded.

THIS! Dear God, this! Anti-Free Will people are basically making the same bullshit argument that Randians do when they claim people are just altruistic because it makes them feel good. Now for the love of God, close the loving thread!

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:56

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

Tsinava posted:

hi, i'm sorry to inform, but the neurons in your brain work nothing like digital logic gates. hope that clears some stuff up.

Yeah but that is all irrelevant.

I don't know any brain biology, but I assume it's just a metaphor for "brain cell receives a Sigmund signal and doesn't split the signal, jack off its mitochondria and cut all ties to the rest of the brain because it has free will"

The point is that even though the system is a lot more complex, doesn't mean that there's still a deterministic set of rules it follows.

So I guess congratulations on being autistic and incapable of expanding your thinking?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:58

tetsuo: May 12, 2001; I am a shaman, magician

lmao, explain to me why you chose cheeseburger instead of chicken sandwich. You literally can't. Thousands of experiments have shown this. You can't explain why you made those choices. They aren't conscious. You aren't the engine that drives your choices. Why > didn't < you pick chili cheese dog? You had the free will to pick any sandwich and the one you chose you had absolutely no conscious part in deciding. This is known. Your free will is an illusion.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:59

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

hellotoothpaste posted:

Why do you answer so many questions with other questions?

Because I was asking a question, not giving an answer. I don't understand why you would assume that those two things are mutually exclusive.

Yaldabaoth posted:

THIS! Dear God, this! Anti-Free Will people are basically making the same bullshit argument that Randians do when they claim people are just altruistic because it makes them feel good. Now for the love of God, close the loving thread!

I figure I understand your problem now. You seem to think that just because someone says that decision making (or altruism) have biological roots, they must also be devaluing it. Nobody did that.

SnowblindFatal posted:

Yeah but that is all irrelevant.

I don't know any brain biology, but I assume it's just a metaphor for "brain cell receives a Sigmund signal and doesn't split the signal, jack off its mitochondria and cut all ties to the rest of the brain because it has free will"

The point is that even though the system is a lot more complex, doesn't mean that there's still a deterministic set of rules it follows.

So I guess congratulations on being autistic and incapable of expanding your thinking?

I swear it's like people these days aren't even aware that analog computing is a thing that exists.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:59

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

tetsuo posted:

lmao, explain to me why you chose cheeseburger instead of chicken sandwich. You literally can't. Thousands of experiments have shown this. You can't explain why you made those choices. They aren't conscious. You aren't the engine that drives your choices. Why > didn't < you pick chili cheese dog? You had the free will to pick any sandwich and the one you chose you had absolutely no conscious part in deciding. This is known. Your free will is an illusion.

Gravity also cannot be explained and is therefore not real.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:02

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Tsinava posted:

Gravity also cannot be explained

lol what

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:03

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

tetsuo posted:

lmao, explain to me why you chose cheeseburger instead of chicken sandwich. You literally can't. Thousands of experiments have shown this. You can't explain why you made those choices. They aren't conscious. You aren't the engine that drives your choices. Why > didn't < you pick chili cheese dog? You had the free will to pick any sandwich and the one you chose you had absolutely no conscious part in deciding. This is known. Your free will is an illusion.

^

Also for whoever thinks they know about neurons, whilst they don't operate on boolean functions they are essentially if functions. For one neuron to fire its signal to the synapse of a connected neuron its charge must reach its "action" potential. Otherwise it is at its "resting" potential.

So basically If (Charge = action)
then
fire neuron
else
do nothing

lol good work showing where free will comes into that

but overall have y'all not argued about free will enough times to know that it's completely pointless arguing about it?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:03

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

Tsinava posted:

Gravity also cannot be explained and is therefore not real.

There are plenty of experiments that support the reality of gravity and the non-reality of free will hth.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:03

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

Quickscope420dad posted:

but overall have y'all not argued about free will enough times to know that it's completely pointless arguing about it?

Haha, yeah it's a classic trap, I know.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:04

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

Hmmm let's try to measure and quantify the philosophical notion of free will. Oh look, we've determined that a some of human decision making is random and not totally conscious or predictable. I guess free will isn't real then.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:05

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

Quickscope420dad posted:

but overall have y'all not argued about free will enough times to know that it's completely pointless arguing about it?

Actually the thing is that it's literally like arguing about religion. I bet five bux that all these people for free will are religious.

E: ninja edit because someone probably just quoted my post

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:06

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Random and unconscious decisions fail at the "will" part, not the freedom.

SnowblindFatal posted:

Actually the thing is that it's literally like arguing about religion. I bet five bux that all these people for free will are religious.

E: ninja edit because someone probably just quoted my post

Which would be funny, because predestination is like the ur-religion.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:07

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

Cardiovorax posted:

lol what

Yes Cardiovorax, at this point in time, gravity has not been completely explained by science, much like the human thought process. Shocking. I know.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:07

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Tsinava posted:

Yes Cardiovorax, at this point in time, gravity has not been completely explained by science, much like the human thought process. Shocking. I know.

I'm not the one to blame when you do poo poo like mixing up "is not" and "cannot." Nothing is ever completely explained by science, anyway.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:09

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

Tsinava posted:

Yes Cardiovorax, at this point in time, gravity has not been completely explained by science, much like the human thought process. Shocking. I know.

Honestly tell me, do you believe in god. You have to tell the truth.

E: or spirits or whatever don't get stuck on semantics here.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:09

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

This is like that one scene in Cube Zero, except the correct answer is reversed. Answer wrong and you're out of the thread. (and should kill yourself)

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:11

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

SnowblindFatal posted:

Honestly tell me, do you believe in god. You have to tell the truth.

E: or spirits or whatever don't get stuck on semantics here.

god and determinism are not mutually exclusive though

totes possible to believe that god created us all as little creatures on rails doomed to suffer for it's amusement lol #thisishelljustlookatGBS

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:11

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

Quickscope420dad posted:

god and determinism are not mutually exclusive though

totes possible to believe that god created us all as little creatures on rails doomed to suffer for it's amusement lol #thisishelljustlookatGBS

Yeah, I agree there. If you believe in god, then it has to be so that in the beginning god rolled some cosmic d20 and then just let things roll. I don't believe in that for the same reason I don't believe in fairies, but that is the most acceptable form of religion, for sure.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:12

el B: Jan 30, 2004; holler.

This thread is great I'm learning a lot.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:13

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

SnowblindFatal posted:

Yeah, I agree there. If you believe in god, then it has to be so that in the beginning god rolled some cosmic d20 and then just let things roll. I don't believe in that for the same reason I don't believe in fairies, but that is the most acceptable form of religion, for sure.

Kinda like toying with the idea that since an omnipotent and omniscient entity would be able to calculate the closest approximation of a perfect reality and timeline, it would calculate that and then run it.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:14

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# ? Jun 14, 2024 22:36

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

Cardiovorax posted:

I'm not the one to blame when you do poo poo like mixing up "is not" and "cannot." Nothing is ever completely explained by science, anyway.

I didn't mix anything up. We cannot currently explain gravity.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:14

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