Have humans always had consciousness?

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > General Bullshit > Have humans always had consciousness?

monkey: Jan 20, 2004; by zen death robot; Yams Fan

Cardiovorax posted:

Why would you assume that they can't be?

I guess we're just quibbling semantics, then, because I mean the same thing. I was just calling the whole thing "the brain" as a matter of shorthand.

well you shouldn't italicise "is" unless you mean it.

Anyhoo, free will is a side effect of self awareness, which is in turn a side effect of language. The word "I" is shorthand for a whole bunch of unrelated things. "I am cold." "I eat food." "I like things that are good." "I" is a literary black box where we keep all the things about ourselves that we are not fully aware of on a micro level. There are electrochemical mechanisms behind every decision we make, but because we aren't discreetly aware of those mechanisms, we get both a sense of self and a sense of free will. So the statement "I have free will" is true, as both "I" and "free will" are illusions operating on the same layer of consciousness.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:14

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 21, 2024 23:33

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

SnowblindFatal posted:

This is like that one scene in Cube Zero, except the correct answer is reversed. Answer wrong and you're out of the thread. (and should kill yourself)

you're a really bad poster and you should take your own advice.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:15

Steampunk iPhone: Sep 2, 2009; by XyloJW

monkey posted:

well you shouldn't italicise "is" unless you mean it.

Anyhoo, free will is a side effect of self awareness, which is in turn a side effect of language. The word "I" is shorthand for a whole bunch of unrelated things. "I am cold." "I eat food." "I like things that are good." "I" is a literary black box where we keep all the things about ourselves that we are not fully aware of on a micro level. There are electrochemical mechanisms behind every decision we make, but because we aren't discreetly aware of those mechanisms, we get both a sense of self and a sense of free will. So the statement "I have free will" is true, as both "I" and "free will" are illusions operating on the same layer of consciousness.

im gay haha

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:15

I Am A Robot: Jul 1, 2006

420DD Butts posted:

Lol you're a fuckin idiot

Um, actually he's not. That lady is basically tricking herself into thinking the gorilla is communicating with her. Half the time when someone asks Koko a question she'll make a nonsense reply and Francine "Penny" Patterson will say "Oh that's just Koko being silly!". Her handler hasn't published anything since the 70s. If we actually had access to a gorilla that could communicate as much as people claim she can, her handler would have publications left and right and would have probably won the Nobel prize by now.

It's just another form of Clever Hans. Also, Francine is literally crazy:

quote:

One particularly disturbing allegation, made by former employees, said that she would routinely show her nipples to Koko and demand that other employees, both female and male, present their nipples to the gorilla.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:16

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

monkey posted:

So the statement "I have free will" is true, as both "I" and "free will" are illusions operating on the same layer of consciousness.

There's a much better debate to be had there than free will vs determinism, which is: can language contain truth values?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:16

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

I've seen a decent argument made that the existence of an omnipotent and omniscient being would require hard determinism to be logically consistent. Knowing the exact outcome of every possible choice ever made is effectively indistinguishable from it, at least.

Tsinava posted:

I didn't mix anything up. We cannot currently explain gravity.

That "currently" is an important qualifier to miss in a discussion about philosophy.

monkey posted:

So the statement "I have free will" is true, as both "I" and "free will" are illusions operating on the same layer of consciousness.

That is pretty much the point I was originally trying to make. It's all a trick of perspective.

Quickscope420dad posted:

There's a much better debate to be had there than free will vs determinism, which is: can language contain truth values?

Oh boy, now we're really getting into it.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:18

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

The concept of God is an example of something outside physics, that people choose to believe in, that effects peoples decision making processes on a daily basis.

Religious beliefs and other various elements that influence culture are examples of free will.

In some cases, religious beliefs allow people to control parts of their conscious they couldn't regularly control. It can be seen as an extension of free will.

Animals also have free will, they make choices all the time. Free will isn't unique to humans.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:34

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

The argument against free will is a really fashionable one to make in the scientific community for some reason. People like to make it all the time and it's basically a huge semantics argument that crops up over and over and is consistently this pointless.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:36

tetsuo: May 12, 2001; I am a shaman, magician

Tsinava posted:

Religious beliefs and other various elements that influence culture are examples of free will.

You are a lunatic.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:41

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

Tsinava posted:

The concept of God is an example of something outside physics, that people choose to believe in, that effects peoples decision making processes on a daily basis.

Religious beliefs and other various elements that influence culture are examples of free will.

In some cases, religious beliefs allow people to control parts of their conscious they couldn't regularly control. It can be seen as an extension of free will.

Animals also have free will, they make choices all the time. Free will isn't unique to humans.

loving lmbo :roflolmao:

SnowblindFatal posted:

I bet five bux that all these people for free will are religious.

E: I nailed it!

SnowblindFatal fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Oct 26, 2014

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:44

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Proving free will by argumentum ad leprechaun is a new one to me, gotta admit that.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:45

velvet milkman: Feb 13, 2012; by R. Guyovich

Tsinava posted:

The argument against free will is a really fashionable one to make in the scientific community for some reason. People like to make it all the time and it's basically a huge semantics argument that crops up over and over and is consistently this pointless.

have you considered making the choice to move into a more suitable subforum such as DND or ADTRW?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:46

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

I don't understand how the notion of religious beliefs being proof that humans can think for themselves and have agency is "lunacy" but don't let me stop you from insulting people and pontificating.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:49

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

Tsinava posted:

I don't understand how the notion of religious beliefs being proof that humans can think for themselves and have agency "lunacy" but don't let me stop you from insult people and pontificating.

you have to show how the gently caress religious beliefs are supposed to count as evidence of free will lol

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:49

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

Faith in whatever you put your faith in is a choice that you make and continue to make day by day, sometimes even when presented with contradictory evidence. Faith can in fact lead someone to tolerate things like pain, starvation and other things that would otherwise provoke natural reactions from their bodies that they couldn't normally control and were previously dictated by something separated from their conscious.

It's not the only example of something that is a part of our free will, but it's a pretty good one. Humans are free to believe whatever the gently caress they want, and while a lot of it is determined by circumstance, not all of it is. It is part of what makes people unique and become more and more unique from each other as they grow and change.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:55

tetsuo: May 12, 2001; I am a shaman, magician

Tsinava posted:

I don't understand how the notion of religious beliefs being proof that humans can think for themselves and have agency is "lunacy" but don't let me stop you from insulting people and pontificating.

Because you're posting in a lunatic fashion, without even the most basic or clear explanations for your reasoning. Choosing instead to assert your ideas like a babbling homeless person on the subway at 2am. Nothing you are saying makes sense because you've built up this alternate universe vocabulary for everything anyone says.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:56

velvet milkman: Feb 13, 2012; by R. Guyovich

Tsinava posted:

Faith in whatever you put your faith in is a choice that you make and continue to make day by day, sometimes even when presented with contradictory evidence. Faith can in fact lead someone to tolerate things like pain, starvation and other things that would otherwise provoke natural reactions from their bodies that they couldn't normally control and were previously dictated by something separated from their conscious.

It's not the only example of something that is a part of our free will, but it's a pretty good one. Humans are free to believe whatever the gently caress they want, and while a lot of it is determined by circumstance, not all of it is. It is part of what makes people unique and become more and more unique from each other as they grow and change.

Praise be to the almighty Allah. Peace be upon him.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:56

the worst thing is: Oct 3, 2013; by FactsAreUseless

tetsuo posted:

Because you're posting in a lunatic fashion, without even the most basic or clear explanations for your reasoning. Choosing instead to assert your ideas like a babbling homeless person on the subway at 2am. Nothing you are saying makes sense because you've built up this alternate universe vocabulary for everything anyone says.

i understand what he's saying, maybe you're the lunatic??

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:58

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Tsinava posted:

It's not the only example of something that is a part of our free will, but it's a pretty good one. Humans are free to believe whatever the gently caress they want, and while a lot of it is determined by circumstance, not all of it is. It is part of what makes people unique and become more and more unique from each other as they grow and change.

Now that's actually an interesting thought. You believe (heh) that we get to pick and choose what we believe in? Because that certainly isn't my experience.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 18:59

the worst thing is: Oct 3, 2013; by FactsAreUseless

or maybe there are just 2 lunatics actually...also i have no idea what it means "to think for oneself"..who else would you be thinking for??

# ? Oct 26, 2014 19:00

the worst thing is: Oct 3, 2013; by FactsAreUseless

Cardiovorax posted:

Now that's actually an interesting thought. You believe (heh) that we get to pick and choose what we believe in? Because that certainly isn't my experience.

if it isn't possible, then judging others based on their beliefs isn't possible either..the ultimate live and let live philosophy.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 19:01

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

Cardiovorax posted:

Now that's actually an interesting thought. You believe (heh) that we get to pick and choose what we believe in? Because that certainly isn't my experience.

I'm sure at some point in your life you were allowed to openly believe what you chose to believe Cardiovorax. Just because you maybe weren't always allowed to do this, doesn't mean you didn't have agency though. That little voice in your head that questioned the beliefs foisted upon you was a part of your free will as well, actually.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 19:03

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Tautologicus posted:

if it isn't possible, then judging others based on their beliefs isn't possible either..the ultimate live and let live philosophy.

Fair point. What people do is more important than what they think anyway. Our beliefs usually reflect our character, though, so I reserve the right to judge based on that.

Tsinava posted:

I'm sure at some point in your life you were allowed to openly believe what you chose to believe Cardiovorax. Just because you maybe weren't always allowed to do this, doesn't mean you didn't have agency though. That little voice in your head that questioned the beliefs foisted upon you was a part of your free will as well, actually.

Leaving free will aside, that isn't quite what I meant. Forming and retaining beliefs always seemed more like an autonomous process to me. I never chose to stop being Christian, it just happened despite myself. I can't even say that I'm terribly happy about it - on the average I'd rather have an emotionally satisfying worldview where a benevolent God is always protecting me and promising eternal happiness. It just isn't my decision to make.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 19:11

Disconnecticus: Oct 21, 2012; Wait, like, actual money?

Here's Kanzi Clever Hansing up a storm by making a campfire and being a fan of Quest for Fire.

link

Personally I'd be surprised if consciousness doesn't exist on a continuum. The notion of a new brain feature just popping up out of nothing in one branch of the monkeys doesn't seem terribly parsimonious to me.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 20:13

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

free will can only exists under a society which practices marxism

# ? Oct 26, 2014 21:05

Izumi Konata: May 4, 2012; by Ralp

ＥＣＣＥ　ＨＯＭＯ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUz9xCTOPRw

ＣＯＧＮＩＴＯ　ＥＲＧＯＴＩＳＭ

# ? Oct 26, 2014 21:24

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Disconnecticus posted:

Personally I'd be surprised if consciousness doesn't exist on a continuum. The notion of a new brain feature just popping up out of nothing in one branch of the monkeys doesn't seem terribly parsimonious to me.

It certainly does, considering how impaired states of consciousness and limited awareness are kind of a thing. We spend most of our nights in one.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 22:46

a fragile ego: Oct 19, 2014

i dont understand the argument against free will someone explain

# ? Oct 26, 2014 23:03

VectorSigma: Jan 20, 2004; Transform
and
Freak Out

Cardiovorax posted:

It certainly does, considering how impaired states of consciousness and limited awareness are kind of a thing. We spend most of our nights in one.

but like dreams are like another dimension on the astral plain doooooooood

# ? Oct 26, 2014 23:07

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

quiltyquilty posted:

i dont understand the argument against free will someone explain

if free will existed it would logically follow that all sensible, rational beings would freely hchoose to become homosexual. the fact that tehy havent is a crushing - one might almost say insurmountable - refutation to the argument that humans have free will

im gay

# ? Oct 26, 2014 23:09

Rohan Kishibe: Oct 29, 2011; Frankly, I don't like you
and I never have.

Back in Sumeria Enki changed the nam-shub of humanity to spread consciousness as a sexual disease.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 23:13

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

quiltyquilty posted:

i dont understand the argument against free will someone explain

first u gotta say if ur a troll

# ? Oct 26, 2014 23:17

the worst thing is: Oct 3, 2013; by FactsAreUseless

A friend of my sisters when she was about 20 unironically said, after hearing about determinism from a male friend of hers, "i like determinism because it means i dont have to take responsibility for my actions"

..

Well yes thats true, but it also means no one else has to take responsibility for theirs, and everything ends up happening the same way.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 23:21

VendaGoat: Nov 1, 2005

Tautologicus posted:

Well yes thats true, but it also means no one else has to take responsibility for theirs, and everything ends up happening the same way.

Ah, the devil's in the details

# ? Oct 26, 2014 23:23

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

Tautologicus posted:

A friend of my sisters when she was about 20 unironically said, after hearing about determinism from a male friend of hers, "i like determinism because it means i dont have to take responsibility for my actions"

That's what some people in this thread think too.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 23:55

satanic splash-back: Jan 28, 2009

human consciousness produced this

# ? Oct 27, 2014 00:04

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

satanic splash-back posted:

human consciousness produced this

People would rather believe someone had the power to choose to create this monstrosity

that's the kind of warped mind free-will believers have

# ? Oct 27, 2014 00:05

Izumi Konata: May 4, 2012; by Ralp

Prison Warden posted:

Back in Sumeria Enki changed the nam-shub of humanity to spread consciousness as a sexual disease.

so what does this have to do with this evolutionary strain of metavirus, E. Bola? doesnt it require a host to eat an already infected person's poo poo to, ...uhhh... spread?

# ? Oct 27, 2014 00:37

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

It's pretty funny to see people who don't believe in free will arguing that because we are not always conscious of the reasons for our preferences, that we still never make decisions. It's something that is quite simply anti-scientific because it isn't amenable to proof. Someone can say, "I got the mahi mahi instead of the filet because I wanted something healthier", and the response is, quite simply, "I refuse to believe that that is the case", repeated roughly a billion times. This is really just the Chinese Room all over again, marinated in insanity.

# ? Oct 27, 2014 00:44

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 21, 2024 23:33

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

You can stop pretending that you're actually paying attention to what people are saying any time now.

# ? Oct 27, 2014 00:54

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > General Bullshit > Have humans always had consciousness?

«‹›10 »