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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:Yes. You have it 100% right. A Confessor is required to use the prophecies, but the book exists only in one man's head. Clearly, the easy solution is to exterminate all Confessors rather than END THE BOOK FOREVER. Richard's logic. I thought it was that because the book is in Richard's head, the only way Darkbutt can be sure he isn't lying about it's contents is to get a confessor to mind-slave him. Otherwise he could just say "So, yeah, you have to stand between the boxes and drink poison - don't worry, the magic'll protect you!" As for why Richard doesn't just off himself... I suppose Rahl is going to die anyway if he doesn't open a box, and he still might get lucky and open the super-powers box, or open the 'kill everything' box, so trying to stop him doing that is still a good idea.
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Nov 24, 2014 12:42
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When I first heard talking wolf my first thought was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOPAW7Em8mE He ended up pretty different though.
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Nov 24, 2014 12:54
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Elfface posted:As for why Richard doesn't just off himself... I suppose Rahl is going to die anyway if he doesn't open a box, and he still might get lucky and open the super-powers box, or open the 'kill everything' box, so trying to stop him doing that is still a good idea. Sure, but the only reason Richard and friends have any chance of doing anything but depriving Rahl of an informed choice is because they're fantasy protagonists. Which would be fine, except the book itself raises the practical issues all the time. The possibility that, hey, maybe some doofus from the backwoods isn't going to cross two subcontinents worth of land and fight his way through the militarily strongest country so far to kill the wizard-king? The fact that Zedd may be First Wizard, but Rahl is probably at least equally powerful and, oh yeah, that whole "owns the strongest kingdom and many of the federated other kingdoms, too?" On top of that and Richard being a terrible Objectivist ubermensch, Dick Hider is a full-on embodiment of most of the worst fantasy protagonist clichés. He's just some seclusionist, forest-dwelling yokel, but he frequently clowns more sophisticated and subtle people. He's this huge pacifist who only wants a peaceful world (and a Kahlan to gently caress), except when he isn't. He couldn't figure his way out of a mime's box, but he'll "cleverly" undo ancient, world-ending magic all day in the most contrived ways possible. He's no warrior, but thanks to his innate whatever-ness and magic sword, he is in fact Da Bes Warrur Evar. And that's just this book! It keeps getting worse as the series progresses.
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Nov 24, 2014 13:23
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Oh, yeah, they'd be much better off assembling a multi-racial team of warriors, wizards, archers and a gardener who followed them around to go capture the other boxes, but they're not here. We've just got Richard. You know something? Why is it that these sorts of people always have to be saving the world from destruction. The actual 'one-man army big name fantasy heroes' like Conan or Elric are usually just saving a small part of it from some guy who's a jerk but isn't out to destroy everything. Even in LotR, Sauron wasn't out to destroy the world, just take over it.
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Nov 24, 2014 14:49
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Elfface posted:Oh, yeah, they'd be much better off assembling a multi-racial team of warriors, wizards, archers and a gardener who followed them around to go capture the other boxes, but they're not here. We've just got Richard. I think shallower readers and authors think that this escalation is necessary to give stories more "oomph" and to try to hide their lovely writing. What's better than something big? Something even bigger! It's also something that ties back into many philosophies, but most appropriately here into Objectivism: The world is DOOOOOMED because it's not exactly the way I want it! Many of these stereotype fantasy books portray worlds that are actually doing a lot to accommodate the heroes' wishes. But it's not enough. So they have to make hard decisions. And, thanks to it being fiction, these assholes are the ones who transform through Cliché fantasy story tropes actually have a lot in common with "real world" Objectivism/modern US libertarianism. Which I think says a lot about both.
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Nov 24, 2014 15:10
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Perestroika posted:That seems to feed back into the whole objectivist thing about people being either objectively good or evil. Oh, Violet's only a small child who was raised terribly and grew up in the most toxic environment possible? Doesn't matter, she's inherently and irredeemably evil, feel free to kick her in the head a bunch. Well, if I had to take a guess, we all know what a Sith is and Mord is German for murder, so this explains at least how he got to the name.
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Nov 24, 2014 15:23
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It is impressive how much of the series I managed to completely forget in the years since I read it (like most everyone else, around high school). The main thing I remembered was that he was the disturbing bondage ninjettes and the massive amount of time spent ripping off the Wheel of Time series. Looking back now almost the entire plot of the first book is just barely familiar to me.
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Nov 24, 2014 15:27
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Plague of Hats posted:I think shallower readers and authors think that this escalation is necessary to give stories more "oomph" and to try to hide their lovely writing. What's better than something big? Something even bigger! See also: Star Wars moving from planet-smashing space stations to star-snuffing, gigantic ice cream cones. Libluini posted:Well, if I had to take a guess, we all know what a Sith is and Mord is German for murder, so this explains at least how he got to the name. Ignoring Star Wars, I've seen 'sith' as a transliteration of 'sidhe', which I think has connections with both fairies and air. So clearly, the Mord Sith are death farts.
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Nov 24, 2014 16:18
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Perestroika posted:That seems to feed back into the whole objectivist thing about people being either objectively good or evil. Oh, Violet's only a small child who was raised terribly and grew up in the most toxic environment possible? Doesn't matter, she's inherently and irredeemably evil, feel free to kick her in the head a bunch. this is how I imagine a wolf named loving Brophy looks like 
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Nov 24, 2014 16:39
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Perestroika posted:That seems to feed back into the whole objectivist thing about people being either objectively good or evil. Oh, Violet's only a small child who was raised terribly and grew up in the most toxic environment possible? Doesn't matter, she's inherently and irredeemably evil, feel free to kick her in the head a bunch. Obviously, he read LotR, then he read Star Wars, then he decided that he needed magical dominatrixes with magical pain dildos.
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Nov 24, 2014 16:42
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TheCenturion posted:Obviously, he read LotR, then he read Star Wars, then he decided that he needed magical dominatrixes with magical pain dildos. Ahahahah, holy poo poo, is that what is coming up next? Have fun transcribing that darkseid, we all expect you to now. 
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Nov 24, 2014 16:46
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Plague of Hats posted:Cliché fantasy story tropes actually have a lot in common with "real world" Objectivism/modern US libertarianism. Which I think says a lot about both. It basically says that Rand's bullshit is nothing more but the wish-fulfillment fantasies of a mentally broken woman, libertarianism is pretty much the same as basing a political philosophy on Twilight
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Nov 24, 2014 17:03
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:hahahahaha I'll have a little to say about how it actually happens and what it means for how their relationship has played out so far when we get there as well. Speaking of lovely names, the whole plot of this book is probably the fault of whoever decided it was a good idea to name a kid "Panis." Actual spoiler: I wonder if Our Hero Dick was named after his grandfather? 
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Nov 24, 2014 19:12
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Plague of Hats posted:On top of that and Richard being a terrible Objectivist ubermensch, Dick Hider is a full-on embodiment of most of the worst fantasy protagonist clichés. He's just some seclusionist, forest-dwelling yokel, but he frequently clowns more sophisticated and subtle people. He's this huge pacifist who only wants a peaceful world (and a Kahlan to gently caress), except when he isn't. He couldn't figure his way out of a mime's box, but he'll "cleverly" undo ancient, world-ending magic all day in the most contrived ways possible. He's no warrior, but thanks to his innate whatever-ness and magic sword, he is in fact Da Bes Warrur Evar. And that's just this book! It keeps getting worse as the series progresses. To be fair it's all properly explained by Eugenics, which hilariously goes totally against the objectivist bootstrapping theme of the book. Also yeah hope you guys and gals are ready to wank it causeeeeee (please post those scenes in their entirety and do this thread proud) I Love You! fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 19:20
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Oh god the Mord Sith. I have an aunt who is such a fantasy freak that her old D&D group had a paid, full time GM. When after reading WFR I asked her about the series, and she said that it got a bit too weird with the sex stuff. Last I checked, she had a complete collection of Xanth books. To be fair, I think that Piers Anthony reigns in the sex a lot as the series goes on and he starts to realize that not every kid is as comfortable having a creepy as old perv for a parent as his daughter. But still, Piers "magic pools that make you fall in love with the next anything of the opposite sex you see are why Xanth has centaurs" Anthony is not as loving creepy as Terry Goodkind. To be fair, Anthony has had sex (he has a kid after all), and once you find out why Darken Rahl hates women so much, you will wonder if Goodkind had yet when he wrote WFR.
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Nov 24, 2014 19:34
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Zereth posted:Why can't Zedd change his beard into one which is not connected to his body anymore? He can turn a loving bug into a flower, and he can turn a rock into dust. I normally don't read too hard but even at 11 or 12 this bothered the poo poo out of me. You can add beard but you can't add air between beard and skin what kind of lovely wizard are you? I assume it was supposed to just be a teachable moment or whatever, but it just came off as 'well, this magic system is inconsistent from moment one'. Also, Brophy is hilarious. Is it ever revealed HOW he came to become a wolf, or was it just that Kahlan touched him and through the Power of Love™ he was able to just decide that was what he wanted to be forever? Or did a complete unmentioned offscreen wizard do it? If the former, doesn't that have ridiculously wide implications for people in that world? I mean, how many people have wholeheartedly wanted to be, say, a dragon? Say, when a d'haran army is raping and pillaging their way through the town? Again, this busted me right out of the story back then.
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Nov 24, 2014 19:37
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Hodgepodge posted:Oh god the Mord Sith. I have an aunt who is such a fantasy freak that her old D&D group had a paid, full time GM. Where the hell can I get this job.
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Nov 24, 2014 19:39
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Hodgepodge posted:To be fair, Anthony has had sex (he has a kid after all), and once you find out why Darken Rahl hates women so much, you will wonder if Goodkind had yet when he wrote WFR. In a forum I used to frequent long ago, one of the regulars apparently went to some con or something and met up with or won a chance to go to some party with Goodkind and his wife. There was the usual "nice in person" rigmarole, but despite that the rather traditional fan relating this story was still a little skeeved out when, in a party atmosphere, Goodkind would more than once hold forth in an authoritative way about how all men and women should act.
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Nov 24, 2014 19:42
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quote:Where the hell can I get this job. GM for years for a group that is fantatical and well-off enough to pay you to worldbuild full-time, I guess. Or write a bestselling fantasy series based on your campaign; evidently you only really need to be literate to do that. Not that Goodkind ever played D&D (hahah of course he did but I doubt he was a GM), but that and Mormonism was how Wies and Hickman came up with Dragonlance. Uh, the other connection here is that you should base your series on some weird or psuedo-religious belief. I vote for Orgone. Plague of Hats posted:In a forum I used to frequent long ago, one of the regulars apparently went to some con or something and met up with or won a chance to go to some party with Goodkind and his wife. There was the usual "nice in person" rigmarole, but despite that the rather traditional fan relating this story was still a little skeeved out when, in a party atmosphere, Goodkind would more than once hold forth in an authoritative way about how all men and women should act. Hahah. Richard really is just Goodkind with the serial numbers filed off, isn't he? Very Randian at any rate. I wonder how he reacted if anyone asked tough questions about the One True Way, as Revealed by the
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Nov 24, 2014 20:06
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:Yes. You have it 100% right. A Confessor is required to use the prophecies, but the book exists only in one man's head. Clearly, the easy solution is to exterminate all Confessors rather than END THE BOOK FOREVER. Richard's logic. in fairness, it's been established that there are various ways to get answers from the dead (e.g. the contents of the book), but a dead confessor is no use to anyone. and... wow, fewer than a hundred pages of mord-sith? honest to god, when this thread started, I would have sworn it was the latter half of the first book.
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Nov 24, 2014 20:18
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Hodgepodge posted:Uh, the other connection here is that you should base your series on some weird or psuedo-religious belief. I vote for Orgone. I can, at best, get you Catholicism or second temple Judaism. Maybe Gnosticism if I feel spicy. Also, how the hell is this book 800 pages long? Even with the summarizing and cutting of the fat the plot still feels insanely sparse.
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Nov 24, 2014 20:20
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PleasingFungus posted:in fairness, it's been established that there are various ways to get answers from the dead (e.g. the contents of the book), but a dead confessor is no use to anyone. Nah, it just feels like it. Of course, they figure very heavily in the rest of the series, when they become Dominatrixes with magical Pain Dildos FOR JUSTICE! Also, when they all decide to keep up with their calling, in order to help Richard, he never actually says 'Oh, and you know that training system you have? The one where you kidnap beautiful young girls, torture the poo poo out of them till they hit puberty, magical pain dildo rape their mothers to death in front of them, then make them magical pain dildo rape their own fathers to death? Yeah, that whole thing? KNOCK IT OFF. NO MORE NEW MORD SITH.' So I always assumed that, somewhere, while Richard is setting up votes, sulking in the mountains, executing crowds of well-intentioned but idiot pacifists, or whatever, there are small girls being kidnapped and tortured in his name.
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Nov 24, 2014 20:25
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Wasnt the whole beard additive/subtractive divide explained by the beard being attached to a living being? Or was that my brain mentally fixing one of the many gaping logic holes?
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Nov 24, 2014 20:31
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Night10194 posted:I can, at best, get you Catholicism or second temple Judaism. Maybe Gnosticism if I feel spicy. Are you culturally Catholic? Cultural Catholicism has a rich history of steamy romance. Doctrinal Catholicism is cool and all, but the end result of that is Tolkien, and that's with an incredibly erudite Oxford don intentionally blending it with paganism. Unless you take a Dan Brown/Knights Templar conspiracy angle. Tolkien literally checked everything with his Bishop to make sure he was within doctrinal bounds; this is why being descended partly from Elves is why Aragorn can know what herbs are good for healing spiritual wounds without taking the first step down the road to being a Ringwraith. Also why Gandalf and the other Wizards (Astari) are angels manifested as old men to keep them humble, and why men originally assumed he was an elf (Gandalf literally means Wand-Elf, in old Norse if I remember correctly, and is not his name outside the lands of men). To tie this to the thread, Tolkien put a lot of work into things like names. Meanwhile: Panis. Rahl. e: TheCenturion posted:Nah, it just feels like it. I...I never read past the first book. Why? Why would you do that? ...Goodkind literally forgot his own backstory for them once they became Truthy good-guys, didn't he? 
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Nov 24, 2014 20:35
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TheCenturion posted:Nah, it just feels like it. I think he actually did tell them not to. I just don't remember what book it was in.
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Nov 24, 2014 20:43
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I think Darken is more offensive to my sensibilities than Rahl. Seriously, Darken? That's like one step above Blackheart McEvilson.
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Nov 24, 2014 20:44
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TheCenturion posted:Nah, it just feels like it. Nah. he immediately commands they be stripped of their gear and to no longer be used. That's why he is surprised to see them in blood of the fold. They refused to submit. No new mord-siths are being trained.
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Nov 24, 2014 21:09
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:just goes "FINE, gently caress IT" whenever they start talking That's not so crazy. It's the first advice you give anyone who doesn't know what you mean when you mention fishmech, for instance.
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Nov 24, 2014 21:11
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Yeah I'm more or less positive he makes them stop with the recruiting angle, they're super happy they don't have to be badguys any more and can just gently caress for justice
I Love You! fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 21:13
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Some of the stuff above isn't in spoiler tags when maybe it should be? Not my thread, tho. My favorite is whoever the "main" Mord-Sith is who becomes his bodyguard. Cara? She wears her pain dildo around her neck. Richard
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Nov 24, 2014 21:17
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alarumklok posted:I think Darken is more offensive to my sensibilities than Rahl. Seriously, Darken? That's like one step above Blackheart McEvilson. I actually think his father being named Panis explains that name. Being a Rahl, he was probably pretty good looking and charming. So he'd be halfway into some foreign noblewoman's panties and then they do it. They ask his name. No teenager has the game to recover from that, let alone a rich spoiled jerk. I bet he decided to name his kid something edgy and dark before he hit fourteen, and got attached to "Darken" before he was old enough to realize that it isn't as edgy and panty-dropping as it sounds to a boy still working through the puberty thing. I should stop trying to pretend that this is ever going to make sense. Although I'm glad to hear that not even Goodkind is a terrible enough person to just forget about a little torture and murder once someone is on Team Right.
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Nov 24, 2014 21:18
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Hodgepodge posted:
Apparently, Kahlahn is also based on his wife, right down to the name. Her maiden name is something like 'Rachel Kahlandt' or something. And given all the rape, it's amazing they're still together (I assume. Can't be bothered to look it up.). Reading Raymond E Feist you can kind of pinpoint his divorce in the books with how often female characters get naked. Also I'm listening to Wheel of Time on audiobook right now. There's an amusing parallel with the bit I've reached. Jordan: "The way of the leaf is the ultimate expression of pacifism - nothing needs to do harm to another." Goodkind: "Trees are murderers."
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Nov 24, 2014 21:19
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Plague of Hats posted:Some of the stuff above isn't in spoiler tags when maybe it should be? Not my thread, tho. He healed them, you see. With his love. With his Truth. His Sword of Truth. Which is his love. I'm not making part of that up. Elfface posted:Apparently, Kahlahn is also based on his wife, right down to the name. Her maiden name is something like 'Rachel Kahlandt' or something. Eh, lots of women have rape fetishes, and Goodkind is more of a naive than malicious misogynist. I actually think he respects women more than Ayn Rand did (this is not a hard bar to clear unless the woman in question was named "Ayn Rand"). Rape is always Bad for Goodkind, but the logic operating here is more romance novel than real (-ish) world, so it is also kinda Sexy. And, well, the genre is called "fantasy" for more than one reason. In my experience, there are a lot more fantasy nerd women who are into books than P&P games, possibly because there is way less of a boy's club in the way of participating. And many of the obvious genre crossovers are things like fantasy-horror-romance aimed at women (Anne Rice). Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 21:28
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This is not a post I recommend you read anywhere near your workplace. It is so time. quote:Richard ran toward the cave entrance, dropping the torch along the way. Running out into the bright sunlight, shielding his eyes, he came to a halt. Squinting, he saw a ring of people around him. Soldiers. They wore uniforms of dark leather and mail, swords over their shoulders, battle axes at their wide belts. Now, I'm just going to throw this out there. It seems like the number one thing that you would want to warn Richard about would be a Mord-Sith. Above every other loving thing. Why? Because this. quote:Richard met her eyes, made a slight alteration to the course of the sword so it too would meet them. Her widening smile only fed the violent fire of his wrath. Their eyes locked together. The sword tip whistled around toward her head. His need to kill was beyond retrieval. If you use magic on a Mord-Sith, they control it, nearly without exception. Wizard's fire? gently caress you buddy. Confessor powers? Well, no, actually, this comes up later. Magic sword? Still counts! ABSOLUTELY THE BIGGEST THING YOU WARN YOUR BUDDY ABOUT, ESPECIALLY WHEN DARKEN RAHL CONTROLS EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. And, a brief aside: Mord-Sith are, more than any goddamn thing in the entirety of this series, one of those things that make you go "why in god's name would a wizard create this?!". I know that it's one of those "Darken Rahl is comically evil" things, given that they're a Rahl-family business, and you do the 'making them subservient' bit BEFORE giving them the magic (looking at you, Kamen Rider), but holy poo poo! Why would you ever create something that could so obviously loving backfire on you if it went the slightest bit wrong like this? It's the same response I had to the gholam in Wheel of Time: at no point should you ever decide the proper escalation in war is "making poo poo that's immune to you and which is sentient". quote:"Do you want the pain to stop, my pet?" Mord-Sith are dominatrixes. Let's not even mince words here. They are magical dominatrixes. quote:"It is you, Richard Cypher, that Master Rahl sent me for, no one else. One of your friends has betrayed you to him." She twisted his head up harder, pushed her boot down harder. "And now I have you. I had thought it might be difficult, but you hardly made it any fun at all. I'm to be in charge of your training. But then you wouldn't know about that, since you are from Westland. You see, a Mord-Sith always wears red when she's to train someone. That's so your blood won't show so much. I have a wonderful feeling I'm going to have a lot of your blood on me before I have you trained." She dropped his head, and leaned her full weight on her boot, holding her hand out in front of his face. He could see that the back of her gloved hand was armored, even the fingers. A bloodred leather rod, about a foot long, hung loosely from her wrist by an elegant gold chain. It swung back and forth in front of his eyes. "This is the Agiel. This is part of what I will use to train you." She gave him a smooth smile, arching an eyebrow. "Curious? Want to see how it works?" So. For the next 70 pages or so, we get nothing but Richard and Denna. No cutaways. Nothing but her breaking him until he's finally freed. This is a brutal segment, and I'm going to be quoting very, very carefully here, because it is... unpleasant. When a Mord-Sith gets control of you, it is exhaustive. And it gives them literal mind-reading over you. quote:"Stand up." She watched him come to his feet. "You have your sword and knife because they are no danger to me, and perhaps someday you will use them to protect your Mistress. I prefer my pets to keep their weapons, so it can be a constant reminder that they are helpless against me." He does a lot of vomiting blood. I kind of wonder if it's the only way Goodkind knows to describe pain, or if he had a really, really terrible meal once that scarred him for life. It happens a lot in these chapters. I mean. I've only vomited blood once in my life, and it came from something eating through my throat. Maybe I just don't have enough magical dominatrixing in my everyday activities. Anyway, turns out he's in Queen Milena's dungeon, because of course he is. After two days he's broken enough to be led into her dining hall on a leash at Denna's side. Not shockingly, Milena and Violet are getting off on this. quote:"If he's your pet," Princess Violet said, "why do you allow him to eat like that?" So, you know. She does. quote:"I like the way you can make him beg," Princess Violet said. This is also another one of those scenes people remember, mostly for how it ends. I'm going to snip Violet's foul loving tirade, but rest assured: it's as bad as you think. quote:Richard actually felt sorry for the little Princess. The sadness for her came over him in a wave. At that feeling, he was surprised to feel the thing in him that had come awake rise up. Denna decides this is enough to take him as a mate. So she, uh... well, she basically pain-fucks him, and then she actually gets him naked for more. Yeeeeeeep. That's where we stop. We stop at her describing how "this is what broke her at 14". The next post? Also not going to be very work-safe. I'm sorry.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:09
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I will make this one statement since so many of you went "do it copy it in detail" before I got here: I am trying to get through this section as fast as possible, as it is unpleasant on many levels. But. If, when we finish with Denna, you still want to see more than the tactically-transcribed chunks, I will go through on request and find the most screwed up part and add it in spoiler bars. But wait until we reach the end. You might be sated by then. I was hoping to do this in two posts and it's ballooned out to three and rising just dealing with the Mord-Sith.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:12
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:Princess Violet squeezed her eyes shut, stuck her tongue out far as she could. To be fair, I feel exactly the same way when somebody sticks their tongue out at me with..malice aforethought? You know, specifically to be insulting.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:34
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Denna does have a way of, er, dominating one's memory of the story.DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:It's the same response I had to the gholam in Wheel of Time: at no point should you ever decide the proper escalation in war is "making poo poo that's immune to you and which is sentient". I thought it was neat that this was actually the reason why there are so few of them. Not even whichever Forsaken was the hosed-up-experimental breeder wanted more of them around.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:36
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Hodgepodge posted:Denna does have a way of, er, dominating one's memory of the story. Yeah the quote specifically talking about how Aginor was all Okay. I'm making these, but only 3 of each 'gender' and holy poo poo they're dangerous. They sure are the most useful weapon against our most dangerous enemies, though, and they do obey our orders, so it was probably a good idea.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:40
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Why the gently caress is his big act of heroic defiance kicking a little girl in the head? The fact that Goodkind made the situation where a kid "deserves" to be brutalized by the hero, and then rendered it in such graphic detail, is honestly more disturbing than anything else in this section.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:40
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Hodgepodge posted:Denna does have a way of, er, dominating one's memory of the story. Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, "we made X of these EVER" is much less terrible than "we have a constant magic-thief factory pumping out new trainees". But they are still both duuuuuumb.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:41
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