|
Everblight posted:Basically this. If "greenies" and Ty loving Cobb are in the hall (along with players who never had to play against black athletes) then the fact that Piazza used a supplement that wasn't even illegal at the time is being used to keep him out of the hall looks really, really dumb. Mornacale posted:I think there's a major generational conflict going on, basically. A lot of voters seem to be using their Hall to delegitimize a whole era of baseball in favor of nostalgia. This leads to a lot of bad feelings from the younger generation, myself included, since our formative baseball years are being disrespected in a really stupid and hypocritical way.  I definitely try to convince myself that a bunch of codgers loving things up doesn't matter because it's increasingly irrelevant and certainly not about honoring the best players. Yeah it sucks for the players themselves who deserve the honor. But I don't think I've ever watched an induction speech and will probably never go to Cooperstown. Yet I guess I still care? Which bugs me. Make me not care tia
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 20:19 |
|
|
I don't agree with them, but I think in their shoes, they think the 90s/early '00s is going to be an era of the sport that most people might like to forget, like cycling in that same period (or what people 20 years from now will think of modern tennis, heh). It's not something I agree with, but I think it's deeper than just "old guys think old baseball was better"- this has always been true, but this is clearly the first time that you have a huge backlog of obviously, no-doubt qualified candidates not getting in, so nostalgia can't be the only reason. If I had to articulate why I didn't enjoy the HOF discussions anymore, I think it used to be (before all the "steroid guys" got on the ballot) about pushing underdogs like Bert. Yeah, it got vitrolic back then, but that was based out of passion for some great players who weren't appreciated in their time. It's different when the writers aren't voting for obviously great guys that we all saw, and the insults of the voters/journalists/etc just seem much more mean-spirited.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:31
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:If I had to articulate why I didn't enjoy the HOF discussions anymore, I think it used to be (before all the "steroid guys" got on the ballot) about pushing underdogs like Bert. Yeah, it got vitrolic back then, but that was based out of passion for some great players who weren't appreciated in their time. It's different when the writers aren't voting for obviously great guys that we all saw, and the insults of the voters/journalists/etc just seem much more mean-spirited. Is it just this year you thought this? I thought the venom was pretty mild, compared to the last couple. Obviously I haven't been in these threads before though...
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:36
|
|
|
Kundus posted:Is it just this year you thought this? I thought the venom was pretty mild, compared to the last couple. Obviously I haven't been in these threads before though... Maybe it's more of a defeatist tone, then. The constant pushing of Bert was fun because we got to convince people to take a second look at them, but there's little hope of the entrenched anti-PED writers being convinced to vote in Bonds and co. Incidentally, I kinda think SAS tends to be a bit flippant about steroid use, but maybe it's because I used to follow cycling, and kind of follow tennis (I'd bet money on the ATP having a Lance Armstrong-sized steroid crisis in the next decade, but that's another story).
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:46
|
|
|
Kundus posted:We'll always have baseball reference. I think this is the biggest offense nowadays. It's next to impossible to rewrite history now because every single statistic is stored in a database on the web, available freely for viewing, but the voters are still trying to rewrite history. And it doesn't matter how wrong they are or how much you present how wrong they are, they just do whatever they want because there's nothing to say they can't try to carry their personal grudges or paranoia all the way to the ballot box.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:54
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:Incidentally, I kinda think SAS tends to be a bit flippant about steroid use, but maybe it's because I used to follow cycling, and kind of follow tennis (I'd bet money on the ATP having a Lance Armstrong-sized steroid crisis in the next decade, but that's another story). It's because this is one of the few places that doesn't buy into the whole "OMG steroids make you so unbelievably good at baseball your statistics shouldn't count" hysteria. Steroids are a safety issue, not a legitimacy issue.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 09:01
|
|
|
ElwoodCuse posted:It's because this is one of the few places that doesn't buy into the whole "OMG steroids make you so unbelievably good at baseball your statistics shouldn't count" hysteria. Steroids are a safety issue, not a legitimacy issue. Well, I used to think this, and to some extent, I still do think that's true- but I think the idea that it isn't a legitimacy issue is highly subjective, and I don't think people are being outright stupid if they think that it is one. I keep going back to these sports like a broken record, but ask anyone who followed cycling that steroids, doping, etc didn't affect the legitimacy of the sport. And yeah, you can point to baseball being much more skill-based than athletic, but that's the same poo poo people in tennis have been saying- and it's completely bullshit over there.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 09:10
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:IDK it just kind of seems the HOF dicussions/arguments everywhere have gotten really vitrolic and unfun lately. The current crisis of what to do with a stacked ballot and the "steroid era" players is certainly significant, but there's been crises in the HOF's past before, and there's probably going to be more in the future. It's just part of the silly culture of a museum that's really cool but doesn't really matter in the long run anyway. IDK maybe this is just personal to me, I used to really enjoy the HOF threads every year. Agreed with this. I really don't get why people get so goddamn worked up about it. You should not take it as a personal insult if someone doesn't vote for a player you liked. I feel like some people in this thread might have had a heart attack if the BBWAA started pulling some of the stuff they used to pull, like voting in Rabbit Maranville, or taking three years to put Joe DiMaggio in.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 09:14
|
|
|
1) Some posters are extremely passionate about and dedicated to baseball and having doofus writers poo poo on that is legitimately insulting. 2) We are posting on an Internet forum, people are probably not actually very "worked up" at all!
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 12:11
|
|
|
I'm extremely mad that Barry and Rodger aren't invited to the Pajama sleepover party at the Cooper's house.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 13:15
|
|
|
Everblight posted:Basically this. If "greenies" and Ty loving Cobb are in the hall (along with players who never had to play against black athletes) then the fact that Piazza used a supplement that wasn't even illegal at the time is being used to keep him out of the hall looks really, really dumb.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 15:58
|
|
|
You can have opinions on things and think they are dumb without thinking they are one of the most serious issues facing humanity or being "worked up". If you don't want to read people discussing and arguing about things that don't matter then don't read or post in a forum about sports. It's an inherently stupid and meaningless topic. We're talking about how good people are at hitting balls with sticks
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 17:36
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:And yeah, you can point to baseball being much more skill-based than athletic, but that's the same poo poo people in tennis have been saying- and it's completely bullshit over there. pedromartinez.jpg josealtuve.jpg pablosandoval.jpg chrissale.jpg Pretend these are pictures of those players. Baseball is BY FAR the least dependent on pure athleticism of all major pro sports. Guys with weird physiques of all types have been excelling at baseball for a century and continue to do so today.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 18:20
|
|
|
Kundus posted:But I don't think I've ever watched an induction speech and will probably never go to Cooperstown. I'll re-iterate that the museum with all of the old baseball stuff is really cool and worth seeing. I was planning on trying to get up there for Rivera and/or Jeter's induction just because, but yeah, I have never really sought out any of the speeches. bawfuls posted:josealtuve.jpg Counter-point: Nate Robinson and Mugsy Bogues. I think baseball is the sport with the most positions that can be played with one or two very specific skillsets that don't involve strength or speed necessarily (pitchers especially) but I don't see how you can say with a straight face that Altuve isn't athletic even though he isn't tall. Inspector_666 fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jan 10, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 18:55
|
|
|
On a somewhat related note, the College Football Hall of Fame is going to induct Brian Bosworth... someone who has not only admitted steroid use, but was actually kicked out halfway through his final college season.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 19:08
|
|
|
Inspector_666 posted:I think baseball is the sport with the most positions that can be played with one or two very specific skillsets that don't involve strength or speed necessarily (pitchers especially) but I don't see how you can say with a straight face that Altuve isn't athletic even though he isn't tall.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 20:06
|
|
|
Muggsy Bogues, Martin St. Louis and Darren Sproles don't find this particular argument for baseball's uniqueness especially convincing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 20:13
|
|
|
Whatever, maybe Altuve isn't the best example.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 20:26
|
|
|
bawfuls posted:bartolocolon.jpg 
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 21:06
|
|
|
MourningView posted:You can have opinions on things and think they are dumb without thinking they are one of the most serious issues facing humanity or being "worked up". If you don't want to read people discussing and arguing about things that don't matter then don't read or post in a forum about sports. It's an inherently stupid and meaningless topic. We're talking about how good people are at hitting balls with sticks People seem to be more interested in talking about how stupid journalists are, which is necessarily more mean-spirited and less fun.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 21:36
|
|
|
bawfuls posted:bartolocolon.jpg
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 21:38
|
|
|
INSPECTAH DECK posted:Weird physique doesn't mean unathletic and "pure athleticism" is an incredibly vague and misunderstood concept. Plus you'd have to ignore the 90% of stars who look exactly what you would expect from pro athletes, or the weird physique guys who excel in other sports. It's also pretty well-agreed that steroids can help in ways that aren't entirely related to "pure athleticism", so I don't understand what the "baseball isn't as athletic as other sports" argument is supposed to prove.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 21:45
|
|
|
I am so surprised the HoF itself doesn't speak up at least a little. The BBWAA doesn't do them any pr favors, especially if they're in the red.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 22:43
|
|
|
joshtothemaxx posted:I am so surprised the HoF itself doesn't speak up at least a little. The BBWAA doesn't do them any pr favors, especially if they're in the red. The HoF's executive board is perfectly satisfied with the direction the voting has gone. It was them, not the BBWAA, that unilaterally changed the length of time on the ballot from 15 years down to 10 in order to get the steroids guys off more quickly, while grandfathering guys like Lee Smith in. They would be happy if Bonds and Clemens never made it into the Hall, and frankly care very little about "lost" revenue -- the Hall's wealthy backers/MLB itself will never actually let the Hall fail. Crion fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jan 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 00:39
|
|
|
joshtothemaxx posted:I am so surprised the HoF itself doesn't speak up at least a little. The BBWAA doesn't do them any pr favors, especially if they're in the red.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 16:18
|
|
|
Bartolo Colon is also not the best example considering he was suspended for PEDs. The axiom of "you can tell who is, but you can't tell who isn't" springs to mind.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 12:44
|
|
|
Just saw an interesting tidbit: Smoltz will be the first person inducted into the Hall of Fame who has had Tommy John surgery Obviously, this would only include players who made their major league debuts after 1974, but still.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 17:25
|
|
|
He's actually the first pitcher to get in after TJS. The first player was Paul Molitor.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 17:28
|
|
|
 Once again, the 1992 World Series comes back to haunt me
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 17:35
|
|
|
Inspector_666 posted:
Nate Robinson is literally one of the most athletic people in the NBA and he has like a 44 inch vertical despite his tiny rear end legs. Not exactly a counterpoint.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 20:44
|
|
|
Paul Zuvella posted:Nate Robinson is literally one of the most athletic people in the NBA and he has like a 44 inch vertical despite his tiny rear end legs. Not exactly a counterpoint. That was kind of my point... You can be really athletic and still be short. Unless you think that Altuve is in bad shape or something.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 21:35
|
|
|
Anyone can bring up individual examples of short basketball players or muscular MLB guys but we're supposed to rely on statistics, dammit. This (from here) shows that NBA and NFL players tend to be significantly taller and heavier than MLB players. Of course, taller people also tend to be heavier, so. Take from that what you will.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 21:45
|
|
|
So there you have it. Olympians are the least athletic.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 21:52
|
|
|
Xenophon posted:Anyone can bring up individual examples of short basketball players or muscular MLB guys but we're supposed to rely on statistics, dammit. This (from here) shows that NBA and NFL players tend to be significantly taller and heavier than MLB players. Of course, taller people also tend to be heavier, so. Take from that what you will. It's a dumb comparison because you never have to overcome man-to-man coverage in baseball, which is where height really matters.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 21:54
|
|
|
Inspector_666 posted:It's a dumb comparison because you never have to overcome man-to-man coverage in baseball, which is where height really matters. Hey, you're the one who brought up Mugsy Bogues and Nate Robinson. I'm just saying exactly what you're saying here - height tends to be much more important in the NBA, mass in many positions in the NFL. It's not that a short guy can't succeed in the NBA, it's that he also has to have some other pretty ridiculous skillset. In baseball, the height and mass aren't as important as they are in these sports (or at least certain positions within them), so something else must set MLB pros apart from the rest. Athleticism? Hand/eye coordination? Something else? It doesn't seem like steroids would help with these skills as much as they would with muscle mass. (of course, steroids also help immensely with recovery time from injuries, but sportswriters don't seem to care much about that.) I think it's also worth noting that baseball positions are much more clustered on that chart than other sports - i.e. the difference between the average 2B and 1B is much less than the difference between the average PG or C in the NBA or T and CB in the NFL. That suggests to me that baseball players as a whole are more physically homogenous than athletes in these other sports and therefore that whatever skillset sets apart your pro-MLBer (athleticism, hand/eye coordination, or whatever) is shared among most/many athletes within the sport, whereas e.g. an NFL tackle might get more out of building muscle mass than a cornerback. Is there some way we can measure athleticism? It seems to me like athleticism would help in any sport, but is that what really sets apart MLB players from the masses? Because that's all bawfuls has really said - it wasn't athleticism that made someone like Altuve a major leaguer. bawfuls posted:Baseball is BY FAR the least dependent on pure athleticism of all major pro sports. bawfuls posted:I'm saying raw athleticism isn't what makes him a major league player. And his height would keep him from reaching the pros in pretty much every other major sport aside from those that favor short people.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 22:25
|
|
|
EDIT: Nevermind.
Inspector_666 fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jan 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 22:28
|
|
|
Xenophon posted:Anyone can bring up individual examples of short basketball players or muscular MLB guys but we're supposed to rely on statistics, dammit. This (from here) shows that NBA and NFL players tend to be significantly taller and heavier than MLB players. Of course, taller people also tend to be heavier, so. Take from that what you will. This is a perfect example of public-facing sports analytics, in that you've thrown a massive amount of information of extremely questionable relevance to the topic at hand into the discussion as if it was in and of itself an argument
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 22:39
|
|
|
From years of watching baseball I'm pretty sure 'athleticism' means black or latino (but probably black).
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2015 22:56
|
|
|
Crion posted:This is a perfect example of public-facing sports analytics, in that you've thrown a massive amount of information of extremely questionable relevance to the topic at hand into the discussion as if it was in and of itself an argument I am admittedly terrible which is why I usually stick to reposting other peoples' news stories and typing banalities like "OH poo poo" into gdts
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2015 00:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 20:19 |
|
|
It tells us that in the exact center of the graphic is the DH, nature's most perfect sports specimen.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2015 06:00
|
|
