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Mr.Unique-Name posted:"So many things" being one active? Mr.Unique-Name posted:Most of those things aren't 100% healing reduction. Several of them are ults with ult cooldowns. - One active, that any god can buy, reduces healing by 100% for 5s (or enough to block a heal/regen ability). - Several items, that most gods can buy, reduces healing by a percentage. - A few gods with healing reduction built into their kit - A few gods that hard-counter heals with their ults Against a handful of healers. I don't see what more counters you want. 100% healing reduction built into skills with low cooldown? The problem is the counters are there but not enough people use them. If nobody is buying curse, pestilence, divine ruin, brawlers, etc - that team deserves to lose. It's like the Ares-beads-tax - if you're up against Hel, SOMEONE should be buying curse.
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Jan 21, 2015 22:09
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cyclonic posted:- One active, that any god can buy, reduces healing by 100% for 5s (or enough to block a heal/regen ability). The thing with heals is they have more impact than just during fights. You can use those things and have a fight that ends with a disengage after a 1 for 1 then the team with the healer can immediately resume pushing, if the healer survived, while the other team has no choice but to back off. Even if they have Curse or those other counters, they're now at 50% against a team that's at 75% at least. Earlier I only mentioned the effective health increase in fights, that was a mistake and I should have gone into more detail with my problems with healers.
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Jan 21, 2015 22:17
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Let's also not forget that laning against Ra or Hel can be incredibly frustrating. You can rush Divine Ruin, but then you're buying an item that will put you behind the rest of their team. Very few gods can out-push Ra during laning phase simply because of that early game healing. And if you're forced to back before he does, you're gonna need to have your support or jungler hold the lane, or he'll push an entire wave to your turret and then drop the healing on the minions to make sure they chunk the crap out of it.
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Jan 21, 2015 23:40
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:The thing with heals is they have more impact than just during fights. You can use those things and have a fight that ends with a disengage after a 1 for 1 then the team with the healer can immediately resume pushing, if the healer survived, while the other team has no choice but to back off. Even if they have Curse or those other counters, they're now at 50% against a team that's at 75% at least. For Ra and Hel, yes they have good lane push and can heal the wave, but they also both lack a good escape which makes them pushing not very safe. Aphro can't heal minions, and her ult can't save her from everything. High sustain is a perk for healers, but they suffer in a lot of other areas. I play a lot of Hel and Aphro so I may be biased of course. The REAL Gtab Fan fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 23:56
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Hel and Ra are the two easiest gods to gank in pretty much the entire game so there's that
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Jan 22, 2015 00:03
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The REAL Gtab Fan posted:For Ra and Hel, yes they have good lane push and can heal the wave, but they also both lack a good escape which makes them pushing not very safe. Aphro can't heal minions, and her ult can't save her from everything. High sustain is a perk for healers, but they suffer in a lot of other areas. I was talking about healing the team after a fight, not wave, but Aphrodite does suffer compared to the others there as well. In the interest of avoiding turning this into Just Another MOBA Thread, I vote we agree to disagree on the efficacy of healers.
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Jan 22, 2015 00:04
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cyclonic posted:The problem is the counters are there but not enough people use them. If nobody is buying curse, pestilence, divine ruin, brawlers, etc - that team deserves to lose. I swear I am the only one who actually looks at who I'm facing when I queue up pub matches. Oh, they picked Hel and Hercules? Looks like Beads, Curse and Ruin/Brawlers it is! Solo laning against someone who can heal or self heal? weakening curse it is. Someone who is attack speed based? enfeebling it is and maybe Mid armor for slows. When something is officially "op" is when you purposely build against it and it still wrecks you (like AO and probably a good Serqet). Since I play a lot of Assault, I'm still appalled when I am the only one with any kind of anti-heal build, facing a team of healers. Or people with no actives at all. The battles in these games are usually determined very very quickly, so popping your anti-heal has to be at the moment your team is going to take advantage of it - or at the very least protect the guardian coming in with Pestilence. The other counter to that is when a healer is getting anti-healed with curse and THEY don't build against that (Winged Blade + Speed Boots)
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Jan 22, 2015 00:12
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In my counter-heal research, I found Osiris' tether (3) possibly reduces regen/heal. Not sure if that's accurate or something old. I'll have to test it. HiRez sure likes their 3s set to counter-heal.
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Jan 22, 2015 00:42
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cyclonic posted:In my counter-heal research, I found Osiris' tether (3) possibly reduces regen/heal. Does Bacchus's 3 apply the debuff immediately or with the stun, or did you not test that yet?
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Jan 22, 2015 00:44
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Building against healing is fine and expected. I always do it when facing against people with heals. But that's not necessarily a weakness. That Weakening Curse you got to counter that Aphrodite? It could have been an Enfeebling Curse that would help against their Apollo/Rama/Anhur and Bakasura/Arachne/Kali. That Brawler's Beat Stick? Could have been a Jotunn's Wrath, which outside of countering the healing, is a vastly superior item. Same thing for that Divine Ruin instead of a Bancroft's Talon. The mere presence of the healers forces the opposing team to spend money buying items that have most of its itemization points centered on those healing counters. So you are objectively weaker than if you had gotten the alternatives, just so you can reduce the healer kit's effectiveness. And that's not to mention the cases your items aren't going to solve. You just had an engagement that ended poorly for the enemy team but they managed to disengage? Well, now instead of being forced to back, their Hel uses her Light 3 twice and they have enough health to re-engage. I don't think anyone is saying healers are bullshit and impossible to counter or anything. But let's not pretend that the drawbacks to countering them with itemization and/or constant babysitting from your jungler are easy and painless solutions.
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Jan 22, 2015 02:12
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How about a god that specifically counters healing? Make it a female Greek Warrior since we're lacking that in their Pantheon. I'm sure there's one floating around related to disease or chaos or something. Passive is a healing debuff that's "catchable" like AMC's bees. Ult - applies debuff that prevents all healing/regen and cannot be removed except at healing fountain. Maybe supportish playstyle in mind so she's also a counter to Sylvanus.
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Jan 22, 2015 05:20
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I'd be really nervous about opening the door to semi-permanent buffs or debuffs.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:13
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You can do the "absorbs healing" trick, where it casts a debuff that eats up to X HP worth of healing before it goes away (or until the duration runs out). I'd be worried about such a hard counter-pick being too niche though.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:20
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:Does Bacchus's 3 apply the debuff immediately or with the stun, or did you not test that yet? It's on the last tic
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Jan 22, 2015 08:44
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Are people seriously upset about building items to counter specific types of characters because it makes it harder to kill others? Like.. Penetration for tanks, high pure damage for squishies, and you build defenses against assassins... and you build heal reduction for characters that heal a lot? I don't see the issue myself, I always just build what fits the enemies I face, and I tend to win on that instead of having a 'set build' I follow blindly. Then again i am hardly the best.
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Jan 22, 2015 13:00
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sharkbeard posted:Are people seriously upset about building items to counter specific types of characters because it makes it harder to kill others? Like.. Penetration for tanks, high pure damage for squishies, and you build defenses against assassins... and you build heal reduction for characters that heal a lot? I don't see the issue myself, I always just build what fits the enemies I face, and I tend to win on that instead of having a 'set build' I follow blindly. I think people are more worried about what Hirez is planning. Since Healers are pretty well balanced right now.
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Jan 22, 2015 13:08
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just played a game with an articulate level 2 (I'm 29) who was playing on the turkish client so he couldn't find items? and then didnt know how to buy items? what's happening to this game am i going crazy
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Jan 22, 2015 14:33
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Healers themselves are not the issue with balance; it's a failure in strategy and team-fight tactics on the opposing team. Hel is strong and becomes a force of nature IF you let Hel get into mid-late game building only glass canon. Did the Hel get away with building full CDR, MP5 and Magic power without needing extra actives, defenses or movement speed? Then you will suffer. Did your ADC and Assassin (Arena/Assault) or Jungler/next-lane (Conq/Siege) focus Hel and gank early and often? Then she will fall behind in level and should be buying defense/active/movement support to improve her own survival. And that chops her power curve incredibly. If you let Hel hit 700 magic power and nobody is killing her then your team had pretty well screwed the pooch by that point in the game. If you let Hel dive-bomb your group and she gets away unscathed, you're doing it wrong. Hel is position-centric and a skilled ADC/Assassin can easily lure her into dangerous territory by plinking away on other targets until they need a heal. Hel needs to move into range to heal, as soon as she misses a step because she's trying to save a life you switch targets and finish Hel instead. As mentioned, Hel, Ra, and Aphro can be super easy to gank; Ask any Hel player their opinion on a competent and intelligent Loki. A properly played assassin should have the enemy healer on Priority 1. Just like the team facing Hel/Aphro/Ra/Herc/Sylv needs to buy items that counter the heals, when you face them you need to pressure them hard enough to FORCE them to counter-build against you in return. If your assassin buys Brawlers/curse and is ballsy enough to even bring Pestilence onto his line-up to guarantee he outboxes you, your done as Hel unless you're bringing in Agility / Blade and by that point your option is to have back-up, or just run away. The Welper fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 16:21
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HiRez has a funny way of influencing the meta, sometimes with hilarious results. Nobody buying blink? Make it stupidly OP (with low cooldowns), then nerf it. Nobody is warding? Make Eye of Providence stupidly OP (sight through walls, low cost) then nerf it. Nobody is buying Gauntlet of Thebes? Make it stupidly OP to the point that they can't balance it and remove it entirely from the game  If nobody is counter-building healers enough, they might buff anti-heal items to the point that EVERYONE will buy them. Then nerf it back down so the learning curve is done and people actually use those items (hopefully at least a little more than before). I'm a little worried about what they plan to do with healers, and I'm also a little excited that it's going to be a train wreck.
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Jan 22, 2015 18:05
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cyclonic posted:If nobody is counter-building healers enough, they might buff anti-heal items to the point that EVERYONE will buy them. Then nerf it back down so the learning curve is done and people actually use those items (hopefully at least a little more than before). A point to consider: when they start flexing muscle against 'Healers' and pinning down Healing from being such a big part of the meta, this is going to reach farther than just a select few gods. Warrior self-sustain(Chaac, Herc, Vamana, SWK), ADC's infatuation with Lifesteal, Baka's minion munch, Kali's 'Target' passive and a ton of other components have to be calculated for, also. If you create a trend that tries to drive against Ra/Hel, you may turn Herc upside-down and make him non-viable. Or if countering Herc's tankiness is a primary concern, you might end up double-dipping into a situation where ADC's are not able to farm their own lane because the new map cuts their mana down AND they can't lifesteal from creeps anymore. Cutting into Healing as a metric that most of the game currently relies on is going to be some really tricky surgery for the balance team. If you nerf healing, Odin / Geb shield is now even more OP. Maybe they DON'T want lifesteal to be such a critical component of ADC play and longevity? The Welper fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 19:58
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Blink is only used on specific gods (which is as it should be, really) and Eye of Providence is back to never being purchased so those weren't great examples. As myself and others have said, healers have an impact that extends beyond what the items counter (getting the team ready for another engagement much faster than the enemy team) and countering the healing doesn't exactly remove them from fights regardless. All of the healers provide a lot more than just healing, so saying "sacrifice item slots so they can't heal and they're not an issue" isn't being entirely honest. Yeah, you can get curse and make it so Sylv can't heal, he still has his ult and pull and root. You can stop Hel from healing and she is still putting out damage and reducing protections. Like I've said before, I just honestly don't like healers in this type of game. Soraka ruined the meta in LoL for quite a while. Smite isn't nearly as bad with that, but healers have too much impact in my opinion. The Welper posted:Maybe they DON'T want lifesteal to be such a critical component of ADC play and longevity? I have no problem with this at all, or with knocking Herc and Vamana down a peg even though I like those gods a lot. Mr.Unique-Name fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 20:10
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To try to change the subject to something that should be a bit less contentious... What do people think they could do to make Eye of Providence worth getting? Decrease its cost or cool down? Add a cool down to purchasing wards? Make it give sentries at level 2 instead of 3?
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Jan 22, 2015 22:27
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:To try to change the subject to something that should be a bit less contentious... But this contentious debate is fun and interesting! Dawww fine. Decrease cost, increase player limit on wards. I think that's a good balance - you sacrifice an item slot and be THE ward guy on your team.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:37
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:You can stop Hel from healing and she is still putting out damage and reducing protections. (with no hard cc, no escape, and no ult) Sylv is broken though.
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Jan 23, 2015 00:09
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For some reason I didn't receive the clan invite. My IGN is Tankisfite I'm not sure if there is a time out for it or what.
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Jan 23, 2015 00:26
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Todd posted:For some reason I didn't receive the clan invite. My IGN is Tankisfite Mine is Obstacle2 if I could get an invite as well.
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Jan 23, 2015 00:47
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cyclonic posted:Decrease cost, increase player limit on wards. I think that's a good balance - you sacrifice an item slot and be THE ward guy on your team. I'm not sure having one "ward" guy would be that great. And increasing the limit on wards would just further invalidate Eye, wouldn't it? I think making it so if you get Eye you no longer need to buy wards would help a bit more, hence why I said decrease the CD. Really just decreasing the price would probably help a lot.
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Jan 23, 2015 00:49
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Todd posted:For some reason I didn't receive the clan invite. My IGN is Tankisfite 72 hours to accept an invite. I'll log on now and shoot the two of you one unless someones gotten to it already. DurosKlav fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jan 23, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 00:50
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:I'm not sure having one "ward" guy would be that great. And increasing the limit on wards would just further invalidate Eye, wouldn't it? I mean the player buying Eye gets to increase his ward cap, not other players.
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Jan 23, 2015 01:06
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cyclonic posted:I mean the player buying Eye gets to increase his ward cap, not other players. Ah, I thought you were saying in general. That makes some sense but it feels kind of self-defeating to say "spend more money for a warding thing so you can spend even more money on wards!"
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Jan 23, 2015 01:09
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:To try to change the subject to something that should be a bit less contentious... Give it a two stage cooldown, assuming they could figure out how to jury-rig it into the game. Cooldown usage: Places a sentry ward. Free usage: Places a normal ward. An individual player can only have 3 wards up at a time anyway, so I don't see this being terribly unbalanced. And you're still sacrificing a permanent active slot that could be used on any number of highly valuable items to save yourself some cash that would be covered by your standard Watcher's+Midas support junk.
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Jan 23, 2015 02:16
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syriquez posted:Give it a two stage cooldown, assuming they could figure out how to jury-rig it into the game. That actually seems like it would be really good if they could make it work.
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Jan 23, 2015 02:45
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Have the eye increase your gold gain or experience gain in some way. No adc, mage, or jungle would want to waste an active for that if it's not too much. And it could help offset the destruction of roaming supports due to the bounty change. This would also address the Moba issue that is underfarmed, under leveled supports being a liability late game.
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Jan 23, 2015 04:13
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Nasgate posted:Have the eye increase your gold gain or experience gain in some way. No adc, mage, or jungle would want to waste an active for that if it's not too much. And it could help offset the destruction of roaming supports due to the bounty change. I was actually thinking of suggesting that but having an active that had a passive component seems weird to me.
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Jan 23, 2015 04:15
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The first thing I thought of when buffing eye was mentioned was Oh god as a support I'm going to be expected to have that, hog and wards as well right off the bat aren't I.
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Jan 23, 2015 05:52
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:I was actually thinking of suggesting that but having an active that had a passive component seems weird to me. Imo, it's either that or move it so it's a permanent in the consumable slots. Because true sight and being able to constantly place wards on this tiny map is garbage compared to the other active items.
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Jan 23, 2015 06:47
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Crowd control immunity and lifesteal (outside of intentionally working it into a toolkit as part of it's balance) are two horrible design ideas that only serve to encourage masturbatory farming play and mass auto-locking of assassins/hunters so anything that rains on those parades is ok by me. The game is most fun when abilities actually do what they say on the tin and the dps doesn't have survivability that scales with their damage output. Both are holdovers from dota style "no one gets to have fun except this guy" style design and they can gently caress right off. Want to be a glass cannon ? You should have to actually be glass. Smite is the first game in the genre to be brave enough to move away a bit from that sort of lovely "one guy is a superstar, the rest buy wards and don't have fun" gameplay into encouraging everyone on the team to be important, moving more in that direction would only improve things. One of the reasons I started playing smite to begin with was seeing that they split the invulnerability and crowd control immunity active items into two different items. Dota always had them in one item. Imagine that in smite, an aegis you could use without movement penalty that also gave you cc immunity. Smite has improved on the gameplay of the games that inspired it by a huge amount, and continuing down that road would be awesome.
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Jan 23, 2015 06:55
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Nasgate posted:Imo, it's either that or move it so it's a permanent in the consumable slots. That's true. Having it as a a permanent consumable would actually probably be okay also. Keep the cost and everything else about it the same, just have it in the consumable slot instead of as an active. You probably still won't have everybody in the game buying one, at least not early, but it's worth getting over just buying wards.
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Jan 23, 2015 07:01
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Carnalfex posted:One of the reasons I started playing smite to begin with was seeing that they split the invulnerability and crowd control immunity active items into two different items. Dota always had them in one item. Imagine that in smite, an aegis you could use without movement penalty that also gave you cc immunity. Smite has improved on the gameplay of the games that inspired it by a huge amount, and continuing down that road would be awesome. the black king bar in dota only grants magic immunity, which blocks magic damage and a lot of effects such as stuns and what have you. all physical damage and pure damage is still able to go through it entirely, and there's a large chunk of skills that still affect those who have the item activated. it also goes down in duration with each use, starting at 10 seconds with the first use and eventually ending up at 5. the recharge time goes down as well, but it's still a loss of overall usefulness over time. the duration can't be refreshed, either, as it's locked to the hero in question and buying another one will only have it activate at the level that you left off at. the item is, as with most things in dota, a fairly situational one that can be used to great effect by some and for others may be a highly situational pick based on the enemy team composition. even then there's still the question of getting the farm and the decision of when to pick it up. as with all other dota items as well, it's not put in some dedicated active item slot and actually takes up one of the very limited bits of real estate that people have to work with in regards to items. comparing it to anything in smite is pretty stupid since the games follow entirely different design decisions that enable each of them to have the items that they do. hell, dota isn't the one making sweeping changes to entire categories of characters.
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Jan 23, 2015 09:15
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Carnalfex posted:Crowd control immunity and lifesteal (outside of intentionally working it into a toolkit as part of it's balance) are two horrible design ideas that only serve to encourage masturbatory farming play and mass auto-locking of assassins/hunters so anything that rains on those parades is ok by me. The game is most fun when abilities actually do what they say on the tin and the dps doesn't have survivability that scales with their damage output. Both are holdovers from dota style "no one gets to have fun except this guy" style design and they can gently caress right off. Want to be a glass cannon ? You should have to actually be glass. Smite is the first game in the genre to be brave enough to move away a bit from that sort of lovely "one guy is a superstar, the rest buy wards and don't have fun" gameplay into encouraging everyone on the team to be important, moving more in that direction would only improve things. One of the reasons I started playing smite to begin with was seeing that they split the invulnerability and crowd control immunity active items into two different items. Dota always had them in one item. Imagine that in smite, an aegis you could use without movement penalty that also gave you cc immunity. Smite has improved on the gameplay of the games that inspired it by a huge amount, and continuing down that road would be awesome. You have obviously never watched or played Dota or Dota 2, so please don't talk about some mythical item you heard about that doesn't actually exist. BKB blocks magic, except for certain magic spells that pierce magic immunity. it blocks one damage type of 3 essentially. And there are actually tons of roots, and silences that go through it. Mr.Unique-Name posted:That's true. Having it as a a permanent consumable would actually probably be okay also. Keep the cost and everything else about it the same, just have it in the consumable slot instead of as an active. You probably still won't have everybody in the game buying one, at least not early, but it's worth getting over just buying wards. The only problem here is that other consumables wouldn't be as good, so everyone on the team would be placing wards. So they'd have to do something like limit the amount of placeable wards for the whole team. Which could also make de-warding actually purposeful.
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Jan 23, 2015 12:00
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