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thrawn527 posted:I mentioned it in the other thread (at least I think it was that one, I get confused posting in both) but it's entirely possible that Thrawn is just lying about getting the knowledge from studying art. Lord knows he lied his rear end off about having a spy inside the Republic (which turned out to be a series of microphones and not a person) so he could just be a brilliant tactician who has extensively studied the military tactics of alien races, but makes it seem like he's getting the knowledge from their art just to make himself seem like a god drat wizard to those around him/hide how he actually gets it. That is not at all tenable. Heir to the Empire has an omniscient narrator who describes Thrawn's ridiculous process. Unless you're going to argue that there's an unreliable narrator, but that would be quite a reach.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:45
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Yeah, I'm sorry, "maybe the stupid thing wasn't stupid and just Thrawn being double-plus genius" doesn't actually make it any better when we're literally described how Thrawn's thing works.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:49
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Wikipedia Brown posted:That is not at all tenable. Heir to the Empire has an omniscient narrator who describes Thrawn's ridiculous process. Unless you're going to argue that there's an unreliable narrator, but that would be quite a reach. I thought we heard that as he was describing it to Pellaeon, from Pellaeon's point of view. Wasn't there never a Thrawn POV in any of the books? It's been a long time since I've read them, so I admit I'm pulling it out of my rear end. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 17:56
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'Capable Imperial leader who wins the loyalty of his subordinates without rule by fear or Dark Side power' makes a good antagonist for the post-ROTJ Rebellion. A villain like this challenges the New Republic to step up as a government. It's not enough to be a plucky band of freedom fighters any more, you've got to protect your constituents, and you've got to show that you can do it better than an effective Imperial leader. Thrawn is a good antagonist because he possesses the strengths the Empire's ruling apparatus claimed gave them the right to rule: he knows how to use violence effectively, he's a bad enemy because he can beat you up, and he's a good friend because he can beat up your enemies. This challenges Our Heroes to show that their own values of democracy and liberal ideology are better. Thrawn represents not the cackling Sith evil-made-flesh menace but the military/state apparatus of a the Empire working at its best. If Palpatine and Vader are the SS  then Thrawn is the Wehrmacht: fans can pretend he's the heroic, noble, 'true' Empire and fetishize him as a hero. But Thrawn is ultimately undone by someone who's basically an Ewok, a small-time species caught up in power struggle and manipulated into fighting. This is, I guess, a triumph for the Republic's ideology, in that they at least claim to care about the little guy.e: It's also telling that Zahn separated the military and spiritual leadership of his bad guys into Thrawn and C'baoth. Zahn's writing is uniformly rationalist and meticulous and he plays C'baoth as wholly insane. There's a bit of subtext of Zahn taking space away from all that crazy Star Wars mysticism to make room for 'real science fiction.' General Battuta fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 18:02
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General Battuta posted:If Palpatine and Vader are the SS What are the Mando nuts in this analogy?
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Mar 19, 2015 18:05
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Lemniscate Blue posted:What are the Mando nuts in this analogy? Gestapo, clearly, visiting harsh language in the night to those who speak out against their perfect leader.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:08
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Check out this documentary about the Jabba puppet nerds!
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Mar 19, 2015 18:28
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thrawn527 posted:I mentioned it in the other thread (at least I think it was that one, I get confused posting in both) but it's entirely possible that Thrawn is just lying about getting the knowledge from studying art. Lord knows he lied his rear end off about having a spy inside the Republic (which turned out to be a series of microphones and not a person) so he could just be a brilliant tactician who has extensively studied the military tactics of alien races, but makes it seem like he's getting the knowledge from their art just to make himself seem like a god drat wizard to those around him/hide how he actually gets it. That sort of mental gymnastics would be a pretty bad reading of the books tho edit ah I see this was covered, carry on
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Mar 19, 2015 18:42
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Even though I liked the books, I always thought Thrawn being able to instantly understand how any given member species would act just by looking at their artwork was beyond dumb. That's like, multiple layers of dumb.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:25
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thrawn527 posted:I thought we heard that as he was describing it to Pellaeon, from Pellaeon's point of view. Wasn't there never a Thrawn POV in any of the books? It's been a long time since I've read them, so I admit I'm pulling it out of my rear end. I re-read them about a year or two ago and I'm pretty sure you're right. Someone else (almost always Pellaeon) was always the viewpoint character in the Thrawn scenes. I think Mara had the POV for that one scene where she met him, and mmmmaybe C'baoth had one too but I'm a lot less sure of that. At least for the Heir trilogy. I think the young Thrawn may have had the POV at times in Outbound Flight but I only read that one once, back when it first came out.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:30
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General Battuta posted:e: It's also telling that Zahn separated the military and spiritual leadership of his bad guys into Thrawn and C'baoth. Zahn's writing is uniformly rationalist and meticulous and he plays C'baoth as wholly insane. There's a bit of subtext of Zahn taking space away from all that crazy Star Wars mysticism to make room for 'real science fiction.' But at the same point, we also have heroes who fight against Thrawn on a military level (Military Operation on Bilbringi, the Talon Karrde subplot) while also having heroes fight against C'baoth on a spiritualist level (Skywalker and Jade dueling C'baoth on Weyland is basically one big "the good wizards fight the evil wizards"). While he obviously prefers the characters of Thrawn and the rationalist and meticulous, he still allows C'baoth to have a number of advantages over him. C'baoth, despite being insane, undermines Thrawn's plans that use his own powers in a number of ways, forcing Thrawn's hand throughout the series and in the end the mystic has complete control of the Weyland cloning facility due to his magic space powers. So, while yes, the subtext is there, Thrawn, through his appointed jailers, are really only containing the mystic aspects of Star Wars to allow a similar, but fundamentally different, story to be told.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:56
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Powered Descent posted:I re-read them about a year or two ago and I'm pretty sure you're right. Someone else (almost always Pellaeon) was always the viewpoint character in the Thrawn scenes. I think Mara had the POV for that one scene where she met him, and mmmmaybe C'baoth had one too but I'm a lot less sure of that. Right, so there is no omniscient narrator telling us what happens in those scenes. It is, for the most part, Pellaeon who tells us that, who is the exact person who would be enamored beyond belief in his commander's abilities. I even remember reading an interview with Zahn once that said something like, "We as authors even tailor scenes and sometimes fact based on whose eyes were seeing through. (Yes, we actually do think about these things.)" Which wasn't, like, a huge revelation or anything, but it showed that Zahn specifically thought about that. fake edit: Actually, that interview might have been Stackpole who said that. But I'm going to leave that in here, because it's somewhat relevant. I'm not saying it's for sure what happened, but just that, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter how he knows what he knows. Just that he knows it, and is able to use it. The delivery mechanism is just there for how artistically it's done.
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Mar 19, 2015 20:03
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thrawn527 posted:I mentioned it in the other thread (at least I think it was that one, I get confused posting in both) but it's entirely possible that Thrawn is just lying about getting the knowledge from studying art. Lord knows he lied his rear end off about having a spy inside the Republic (which turned out to be a series of microphones and not a person) so he could just be a brilliant tactician who has extensively studied the military tactics of alien races, but makes it seem like he's getting the knowledge from their art just to make himself seem like a god drat wizard to those around him/hide how he actually gets it.
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Mar 19, 2015 20:39
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Casimir Radon posted:Or he's just taken a wholistic approach to studying the enemy, art being part of that. I like the theory that the art stuff is just bullshitting on his part. He's a genuine lover of art for its own sake, but passes off his love for it as tied into his military genius for either simple amusement or to justify him bringing his art collection on board a warship.
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Mar 19, 2015 21:06
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Strobe posted:Gestapo, clearly, visiting harsh language in the night to those who speak out against their perfect leader.
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Mar 19, 2015 22:31
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General Battuta posted:If Palpatine and Vader are the SS So, that would leave Thrawn specifically as Erwin Rommel or Claus von Stauffenberg in this analogy?
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Mar 19, 2015 23:05
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Drone posted:If I were making a short list of things that are worthy of keeping: -Kyle Katarn
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Mar 19, 2015 23:28
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Wheat Loaf posted:So, that would leave Thrawn specifically as Erwin Rommel or Claus von Stauffenberg in this analogy? I think Zahn specifically mentioned Rommel in an interview.
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Mar 19, 2015 23:44
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Rather appropriate, since Rommel was a capable commander who is drastically overrated by his fanboys.
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Mar 20, 2015 00:31
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Cythereal posted:I like the theory that the art stuff is just bullshitting on his part. He's a genuine lover of art for its own sake, but passes off his love for it as tied into his military genius for either simple amusement or to justify him bringing his art collection on board a warship. Heir to the Jedi was good. I'm still not entirely sold on the decision to go for a first-person perspective, but it does get you inside Luke's head at a time when he's really vulnerable and unsure of himself, quite the antithesis of the silly poo poo EU authors had him doing in the 90's before The Hand of Thrawn mocked it to death. It's a bit rough but I still enjoyed it.
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Mar 20, 2015 02:46
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Casimir Radon posted:Heir to the Jedi was good. I'm still not entirely sold on the decision to go for a first-person perspective, but it does get you inside Luke's head at a time when he's really vulnerable and unsure of himself, quite the antithesis of the silly poo poo EU authors had him doing in the 90's before The Hand of Thrawn mocked it to death. It's a bit rough but I still enjoyed it. I, Jedi is also pretty decent. I can do without Corran Horn himself, but that book's portrayal of the Jedi and how people react to them is one of my favorites.
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Mar 20, 2015 03:44
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Cythereal posted:I, Jedi is also pretty decent. I can do without Corran Horn himself, but that book's portrayal of the Jedi and how people react to them is one of my favorites. That, and I can't get enough of Stackpole making GBS threads all over the lunacy that is Anderson's Jedi Academy books.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:25
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Yeah, I really loving hope the new EU Jedi don't turn into the boring carbon copy prequal versions. I kind of liked the more looser and dynamic Luke Jedi Order stuff.
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Mar 20, 2015 06:19
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Gammatron 64 posted:One thing that kinda bugs me a little about the old post-ROTJ EU is there's never another Emperor after Palpatine. There's some people who are informally "in charge" of the Empire like Ysanne Isard and Thrawn, but there's no official figurehead. I think it would be cool to have an Emperor as basically a puppet monarch while someone behind the scenes while someone like Ysanne Isard calls the shots from the shadows.The Roman Empire didn't collapse when Julius Caesar was assassinated. There were a ton of Emperors after him. I hate to be that guy but.. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ederlathh_Pallopides quote:Ederlathh Pallopides was a Human female and the remote great-niece of Emperor Palpatine, ruler of the Galactic Empire. During the power struggle that ensued after Palpatine's death in 4 ABY, a faction of the Imperial Navy backed Pallopides's hereditary rights to her great-uncle's throne. In reality, she was a political pawn in Admiral Betl Oxtroe's plan to reunite the fractured Empire by using Pallopides as a figurehead Empress. Looks like it was only some background material in one of the RPG sourcebooks, which sucks, because the basic idea might have made a decent novel (or atleast better then the Superweapon of the Week)
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Mar 21, 2015 01:55
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I think it would just be nice to have like, different Emperors who are just like... different. Like maybe a really fat incompetent dude who is just a puppet Emperor to someone else. (Crimson Empire had something like this.) Or like, instead of every Sith Lord being a really angry goth dude with makeup maybe have someone like Caligula who is an extremely narcissistic and vain deviant. I dunno, just something different than RWARR I AM A SITH LORD AND I AM FULL OF RAGE RWAAARRR. Thrawn, Ysanne Isard and Warlord Zsinj are like the only Imperial bad guys post ROTJ that are really all that memorable, because they're different. Well, there's also Admiral Daala, but she was just lovely.
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Mar 21, 2015 02:19
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The plot of the rogue squadron comics was about Isard vs Penstage vs the ruling council for who was the official head of state, though the "boom boom star fighters explosions" overshadowed most of the political maneuvering. Then Thrawn returned and got appointed in charge by the Moffs, then you have the Imperial Civil War as described in the DE sourcebook (same place Palpaines niece was named), then Palpatine reborn, then the councils in Crimson Empire 1 & 2, and with the deaths at the end of CE2 the formal end of the Imperial state.
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Mar 21, 2015 03:20
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Gammatron 64 posted:I think it would just be nice to have like, different Emperors who are just like... different. Like maybe a really fat incompetent dude who is just a puppet Emperor to someone else. (Crimson Empire had something like this.) Or like, instead of every Sith Lord being a really angry goth dude with makeup maybe have someone like Caligula who is an extremely narcissistic and vain deviant. I dunno, just something different than RWARR I AM A SITH LORD AND I AM FULL OF RAGE RWAAARRR. The Knight Errant comics have this Sith Lord as a major figure. Well more with the vanity and Narcissism to the point of solipsism than conventional deviance. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Daiman
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Mar 22, 2015 19:43
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I'm trying to watch the first season of Clone Wars on Netflix and it's just do drat hard. Does it get better? Can I skip a bunch of this? I'm totally not watching an episode focused on Jar Jar and Amidala
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Mar 22, 2015 20:33
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omg chael crash posted:I'm trying to watch the first season of Clone Wars on Netflix and it's just do drat hard. Does it get better? Can I skip a bunch of this? I'm totally not watching an episode focused on Jar Jar and Amidala
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Mar 22, 2015 20:45
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omg chael crash posted:I'm trying to watch the first season of Clone Wars on Netflix and it's just do drat hard. Does it get better? Can I skip a bunch of this? I'm totally not watching an episode focused on Jar Jar and Amidala Yeah, season 1 is pretty weak, and unfortunately they already had a lot of Season 2 finished and voice acted and everything before they started hearing feedback. Mid-season 2 is where the show really starts getting good (and they drop a lot of the lovely "snips and SkyGuy" bullshit), and by the time you hit Season 3 the show is just full-on-awesome. I would honestly say that if you're struggling with the first season to just skip ahead.
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Mar 22, 2015 20:51
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quote:Merchandising, merchandising, where the real money from the movie is made. Spaceballs-the T-shirt, Spaceballs-the Coloring Book, Spaceballs-the Lunch box, Spaceballs-the Breakfast Cereal, Spaceballs-the Flame Thrower.        Bonus: Not Star Wars but still mind-bogeling. 
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Mar 23, 2015 04:53
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Gammatron 64 posted:Or like, instead of every Sith Lord being a really angry goth dude with makeup maybe have someone like Caligula who is an extremely narcissistic and vain deviant. I dunno, just something different than RWARR I AM A SITH LORD AND I AM FULL OF RAGE RWAAARRR. On a related note, Blotus was clearly the best head of state the galaxy ever had.
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Mar 23, 2015 06:37
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A Hutt. Named Blotus. That's right up there with "Darth Icky" Oh but he broke stereotypes! quote:As Chancellor, he overcame the stereotypes assigned to members of his species and ushered in a new age of prosperity for the Republic
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Mar 23, 2015 18:35
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Flagrant Abuse posted:While not particularly hedonistic, Darth Vectivus is my favourite non-standard Sith Lord. Just a normal businessman who happened to also be a Dark Side user. Wasn't that part of the LOTF series?
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Mar 23, 2015 20:01
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SirPhoebos posted:Wasn't that part of the LOTF series?
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Mar 23, 2015 20:06
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I've been reading through some of the older Star Wars EU, starting with the Han Solo Trilogy (the 80s one, not the 90s one). Really fun with some odd 80s cyberpunk notes to it. I (kind of unknowingly) started a recent kid's series that takes place just after Star Wars and focuses on an assassin trying to find out who Luke is and kill him. Genuinely good, my first tip off that it was for kids was the incredibly short reading time on my kindle, but I got into it and didn't care. For something written for kids, it captures the sense of Star Wars better than the creepy emo alien war series does, though I admittedly only read one of those and didn't go back for more.
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Mar 24, 2015 00:17
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PlisskensEyePatch posted:I've been reading through some of the older Star Wars EU, starting with the Han Solo Trilogy (the 80s one, not the 90s one). Really fun with some odd 80s cyberpunk notes to it. What's it called, out of curiosity?
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Mar 24, 2015 00:55
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Rebel Force or Forces. Should have included that.
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Mar 24, 2015 01:14
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There's something about early 90's EU, specifically the young adult stuff, the games, the comics, and the various guides and rpg supplements that really portray a far more interesting and mystical universe than what the prequels and later EU gave us. It's much pulpier and mystic with flecks of mythology and retrofuturism. I grew up with the prequels and I love them in their own way, but man, the universe they give us is pretty boring. My main hope is that TFA brings back some of that early feel.
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Mar 24, 2015 01:46
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Definitely seems like EU forgot to have fun. So much of Star Wars is pulp space fantasy and it seems like later authors tried to get needlessly "dark" or tried to make it science fiction with a suit and tie instead of sci-fi with a Hawaiian shirt and bowling shoes. If that makes sense.
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Mar 25, 2015 15:41
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