Mange Mite posted:

WE ARE STILL THE GOOD GUYS OK

EMILY BLUNTS posted:

An Upset Air Force Man posted:

In retrospect, the group's greatest contribution was the promotion of E-M as a basis for evaluating and designing aircraft for air combat maneuvering.[1] At a time when the US military was seemingly obsessed with technological solutions, the Fighter Mafia acted as the opposite extreme from which a more balanced approach to fighter design would emerge. However, this can be seen as ultimately a defeat of the Fighter Mafia and its ideals. While this balanced approach would result in the highly successful F-15, F-15E, F-16, F/A-18 and F/A-18E/F, it did so at the betrayal of the Fighter Mafia's campaign for the US military to adopt a single-role, low-tech fighter in large numbers.

The group's uncompromising disdain of and campaign against advanced weapons, radars, ECM, and multi-role designs, what they characterized as "gold-plating", would prove erroneous. For example, the Fighter Mafia argued that the ground attack mission should be handled by more appropriate, dedicated aircraft such as the A-10, which has had an outstanding record in that area[1] and that the addition of more electronics to F-16 caused its weight to rise to the point where it lost its edge in dogfighting, the mission for which it had been designed.[6] The vision of the group would have seen the US build thousands of dedicated short-ranged, low-tech, fighter-only aircraft to counter Soviet air power on a numerical superiority basis, a plan that was never endorsed by the USAF or the USN.[4] Instead, the success of US military aircraft has shown that the same technology would protect aircraft from missiles in an increasingly sensor-saturated battlefield, and would enable the multi-mission capabilities of modern aircraft. And while the US aircraft has engaged in few air-to-air encounters since Vietnam, the trend continues to show that missiles and in particular increasingly mature long-range missiles are the primary weapon on choice in modern combat, a trend that started as far back as the Vietnam War but continues to be downplayed by the Fighter Mafia.[4][7][8]

Although Sprey often portrays himself as a "principal designer" of the F-16, the actual plane that entered service included the long-range missiles, sensors and multi-role capability that he continues to criticize today.[4] Interestingly, the Fighter Mafia can be considered presently active, as Sprey has become an often-cited critic of the F-35, including using comparisons of the accident rates of the early F-16 design that most strongly felt his design influence to argue that the F-35 ought to be equally unsafe.

quote:

The F-35's radar-absorbent materials are designed to be more durable and less maintenance-intensive than those of its predecessors

quote:

Because the aircraft's shape is important to the radar cross-section (RCS), special care must be taken to match the "boilerplate" during production. Ground crews require Repair Verification Radar (RVR) test sets to verify the RCS after performing repairs, which is not a concern for non-stealth aircraft.

EMILY BLUNTS posted:

ethanol posted:

wtf is going on, are those fuel hoses?

hooker tops posted:

ethanol posted:

wtf is going on, are those fuel hoses?

Feindfeuer posted:

Ignoring the basic flight problems, is the F-35 capable of beeing air refueld without compromising it's stealth characteristics? I remember reading that they had to reapply some of the toxic stealth paint every time they do maintenance to cover up the tiny gaps between the access panels and the hull... so I'd assume the same applies to the cover of the air-refueling system.

Thump! posted:

Yes. Those aircraft (CH-53s) are in the process of refueling from that KC-130. This is an integral part of the US being able to bomb browns any time we want.

ethanol posted:

I just had no idea a plane could do two helicopters at the same time

Lazyfire posted:

Because of this thread I went out and got a copy of Pentagon Wars, the book, not the HBO movie. It's a pretty good read if not a bit dated. For example, the author holds Dick Cheney up as an adherent of sane defense acquisition and spending, as he wrote the book back when Cheney was the Secretary of Defense under the first President Bush and the US had just completed Desert Storm.

One of the first chapters in the book talks at length about the formation of the "Fighter Mafia" which was basically a few Air Force and civilian government employees who saw the way the Air Force was approaching design and loving hated it. The Air Force was targeting high speed fighters when most plane to plane combat topped out at a little over the speed of sound. Because the planes were supposed to travel faster they needed more fuel, so they had to be bigger and therefore were heavier. Additionally, the Air Force insisted on using radar guided missiles as the main weapons when they had been less effective than guns in the Vietnam War and were super expensive and required more sensors and computer parts which also made the plane bigger. The Fighter Mafia was also infamous for using technology to design the plane but using mature, proven stuff inside it, so the F-16 used the same engine the F-15 used, for example.

Too bad the Fighter Mafia, despite the success of the F-16 and A-10 which were basically initiatives taken up by those guys, were or are actively being ignored or defamed these days, hell from the Fighter Mafia Wikipedia page:


Fun story about the F-16: It was designed to be a fighter and bomber, so not only does the article give credit to the Fighter Mafia for making really good planes, it tears them down because other people in the Air Force or at contractors decided to change designs and make things worse. Then it suggests the F-35 isn't a death trap.

Pornographic Memory posted:

It's entirely possible that they cocked it up, but it shouldn't be any more of a challenge than making the internal ordnance bay doors open and close without requiring maintenance afterward to maintain stealth.

etalian posted:

I'm hoping the internal bay door doesn't open without a software update planned for 2020 release.

Feindfeuer posted:

Ignoring the basic flight problems, is the F-35 capable of beeing air refueld without compromising it's stealth characteristics? I remember reading that they had to reapply some of the toxic stealth paint every time they do maintenance to cover up the tiny gaps between the access panels and the hull... so I'd assume the same applies to the cover of the air-refueling system.

dud root posted:

For real though why is the software for the gun taking 5 years or whatever it was. I mean programming the caret thing to help lead your bullets must be hard and all, but its also something every other plane with a HUD has enjoyed since day 1 in the 80s

Evil_Greven posted:

Perhaps like other things on this flying disaster, the existing software is so bloated that it consumes all available resources.

If that is the case, maybe they think it will take 5 years to refine the existing software so that the statement TRIGGER_PULLED() { FireCannon(); } can be used.

Pornographic Memory posted:

"Sweet, finally got the gun software, now I can fight without missiles!"

*switches to gun mode, has to wait five minutes for it to load*

Blistex posted:

Every time you try to fire a missile... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd4fj9Efl4s&t=62s

Pornographic Memory posted:

"Sweet, finally got the gun software, now I can fight without missiles!"

*switches to gun mode, has to wait five minutes for it to load*

PassTheRemote posted:

The plane gets a BSOD when the pilot tries to eject.

Hexyflexy posted:

I thought you were going to post that video from the Simpsons. That is better in every way.

This

zedprime posted:

The STOVL version needs refueling literally minutes after a STO because the weight limit is so strict it barely carries enough fuel to make it up.

Soylent Yellow posted:

Mods, new thread name, please. "F35: Gives pilots trouble getting it up."

Blistex posted:

Take whatever Sprey says with a grain of salt. If he had his way the F-16 would be flying with a $10 radar and two missiles. While he has some valid points about the F-35, you have to remember that he is a bitter old man that's mad that he isn't calling the shots.