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PunkBoy posted:Not sure about other developers, but Cavia was fully aware. Trolling the players was Cavia's thing. It didn't help that the rules for achievements were fuzzy at first and only clarified later. There are a couple of games that have "be #1" achievements (Chromehounds had one of those for every role you can be ranked in) and at least one game that shipped with less than 1000 gamerscore (Condemned) because that wasn't a requirement at the time.
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May 4, 2015 19:15
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haveblue posted:It didn't help that the rules for achievements were fuzzy at first and only clarified later. There are a couple of games that have "be #1" achievements (Chromehounds had one of those for every role you can be ranked in) and at least one game that shipped with less than 1000 gamerscore (Condemned) because that wasn't a requirement at the time. Chromehounds was so underpopulated those achievements were perfectly reasonable though. 
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May 4, 2015 19:36
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Alouicious posted:the real problem with generation 1 pokemon was that psychic-type was completely broken It was really funny that the game would tell you to get a ghost Pokemon to beat Sabrina, but if you ever did so, she'd eat you alive, because despite the problems with Ghost moves, all Gen 1 ghosts were also Poison type. e: Even better was that Dragon was super effective against Dragon, despite the only Dragon move in the game being one that dealt a set 40 damage, regardless of type.
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May 4, 2015 20:25
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Final Fantasy 2 is a game few people understand. In the NES version, equipment gave your characters massive penalties to the magic stats, but only for hit chances. Basic things like Fire and Cure would work perfectly, but things that could miss like Sleep or Toad or Life would fail miserably if you had, well, pretty much any equipment on. Even the stuff you'd think you should give your casters, like bows or staves, had like -50 and -70 point penalties on stats that start at 10, and it wasn't until the 4th to last dungeon that you got any armor that didn't wreck your magic stats, and weapons were just straight out. Literally nothing in the game tells you this and it's easy to think that nondamage spells suck. Thankfully, every version since then just excised this system entirely. Never mind that people still think that they're gaming the system when they have characters hit themselves in an attempt to exploit the game's weird stat increasing system, but that's a problem of people not really knowing how FF2's rules work, and not knowing this won't come back to bite them until the final dungeon.
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May 4, 2015 21:11
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Takoluka posted:It was really funny that the game would tell you to get a ghost Pokemon to beat Sabrina, but if you ever did so, she'd eat you alive, because despite the problems with Ghost moves, all Gen 1 ghosts were also Poison type. Sabrina was the trollest fight in that entire game. Level 50 Alakazam with Recover, and unlimited PP because that's how AI opponents worked in Gen 1? Why not!
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May 4, 2015 21:11
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Final Fantasy 2 is a game few people understand. To roll it back full circle, if FF2 had come out in the US originally, it would have changed everything re: assumed effectiveness of statuses in RPGs. In the first game, they didn't work because they were broken all to hell. In the second game there are very few enemies they don't work on if your stats are half-way decent (ie keep your black mage naked). And there's a lot of OHKO status spells. IIRC you can even cheese a lot of the bosses with them.
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May 4, 2015 22:09
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Shwqa posted:Also they were awesome in final fantasy 5. I think there are about 7-10 bosses that can be killed with instant death, including a part of the last boss. A few that can be put to sleep, which in that game you only wake up if you get hit with a physical attack. Blind does work as well. There isn't a non-undead boss in the game that can't be killed by Level 5 Death. 
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May 4, 2015 22:28
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Status Effects also worked really well, especially with Junction, in FF8. The game even slaps you in the face with this during one of the really early parts. It plainly tells you a monster you need to defeat is weak to sleep, so junction sleep on your weapon to effectively lock it down from doing anything. Really the only status effects that never seem useful against enemies in the Final Fantasy series are Paralyze and Petrify. Stop and Slow are basically the God Kings of statuses, and poison/bio do pretty good passive damage. Death is good early on but definitely removed from most boss weaknesses towards the middle of the series. Still useful against garbage enemies with huge HP pools however, like Behemoths.
Skaw has a new favorite as of 22:52 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 22:46
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Skaw posted:Status Effects also worked really well, especially with Junction, in FF8. The game even slaps you in the face with this during one of the really early parts. It plainly tells you a monster you need to defeat is weak to sleep, so junction sleep on your weapon to effectively lock it down from doing anything. Really the only status effects that never seem useful against enemies in the Final Fantasy series are Paralyze and Petrify. Stop and Slow are basically the God Kings of statuses, and poison/bio do pretty good passive damage. Death is good early on but definitely removed from most boss weaknesses towards the middle of the series. Still useful against garbage enemies with huge HP pools however, like Behemoths. Petrify (as Break) was god in FF8 because it would end a fight as if you'd run (without giving you any XP as long as you did no damage). This applied to several story fights that you can't run from - unfortunately, it applies to the fight to get into Lunatic Pandora, meaning that if you end the fight with Break on the guards, it counts as having fled, and you have to go to the next point and fight properly (or reload, because you just screwed up your path).
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May 4, 2015 22:58
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Status effects are pretty decent in the Megami Tensei games, usually. Charm bullets in Persona 1
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May 4, 2015 23:01
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Dr Pepper posted:There isn't a non-undead boss in the game that can't be killed by Level 5 Death. Except you know, all the ones that are. This post is crazy talk, only like, half the bosses at most can be taken down by Level 5 Death. Kugyou no Tenshi posted:Petrify (as Break) was god in FF8 because it would end a fight as if you'd run (without giving you any XP as long as you did no damage). This applied to several story fights that you can't run from - unfortunately, it applies to the fight to get into Lunatic Pandora, meaning that if you end the fight with Break on the guards, it counts as having fled, and you have to go to the next point and fight properly (or reload, because you just screwed up your path). Which points out the key troll in 8--which is to say that monsters level up concurrently with you, making grinding effectively useless. You can game the system though, because they base the monster numbers on the average of all the player characters' levels, so you can just keep half of them out of all battles in the game while grinding the other half to max, and by end game you'll have the one party that's at level 99 while the monsters are still at level 50. But that's still a terrible plan.
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May 4, 2015 23:42
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Choco1980 posted:Except you know, all the ones that are. This post is crazy talk, only like, half the bosses at most can be taken down by Level 5 Death. Man 9 year old me with access to a gameshark had the most trouble with FF8 because of that. Hot off the heels of FF7 "quick level up" seemed like a code worth using. Boy was I wrong. I keep meaning to go back and replay it because understanding mechanics should make it a much easier game.
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May 4, 2015 23:48
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Choco1980 posted:Except you know, all the ones that are. This post is crazy talk, only like, half the bosses at most can be taken down by Level 5 Death. There are methods to modify the "Level" stat in FF5, which is used as an attack multiplier. It's possible to always make the enemy a level divisible by 5, because the cap for the in battle level stat is 255.
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May 4, 2015 23:54
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Choco1980 posted:But that's still a terrible plan. Especially since a good junction and a bunch of time spent drawing or converting cards meant you could have characters with all relevant stats maxed or near max, with exceedingly high HP (maxed if you went to the trouble of making HP up items), etc, all at base level. Which meant all you were doing by leveling was making fights take longer. I think the only mechanic that was tied to a character's level in any way was the SeeD rank tests (and not even the rank itself, just the tests).
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May 4, 2015 23:57
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The White Dragon posted:Sabrina was the trollest fight in that entire game. Level 50 Alakazam with Recover, and unlimited PP because that's how AI opponents worked in Gen 1? Why not! Is there any Pokemon game where a Psychic and/or Ghost loving gym leader isn't bullshit? I've only ever played and beaten the old Red/Blue, with and a dust collecting copy of Platinum I never got around to beating (guess what Gym I left off in  )
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May 5, 2015 00:01
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Section Z posted:Is there any Pokemon game where a Psychic and/or Ghost loving gym leader isn't bullshit? I've only ever played and beaten the old Red/Blue, with and a dust collecting copy of Platinum I never got around to beating (guess what Gym I left off in fantina is way easier in platinum than she was in diamond/pearl
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May 5, 2015 00:05
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Choco1980 posted:Which points out the key troll in 8--which is to say that monsters level up concurrently with you, making grinding effectively useless. You can game the system though, because they base the monster numbers on the average of all the player characters' levels, so you can just keep half of them out of all battles in the game while grinding the other half to max, and by end game you'll have the one party that's at level 99 while the monsters are still at level 50. But that's still a terrible plan. I really wouldn't say it was a key troll, just mechanics oversight. It was an attempt to keep bosses challenging and also reduce level grinding. The problem also came from the fact that very few people really utilized Junction and a good portion that did were absolutely mortified to cast any spells at all because they were min-maxing autists. If boss levels were kept low you could get by on just brute force physical-only damage mashing the confirm button nonstop. But if you leveled you absolutely needed to junction elements/statuses accordingly to keep bosses from just running you through. Leveling also sort of reduced the heavy lean on Drawing magic by unlocking the refinement abilities, allowing you to turn all those monster drops in to common spells for junctioning, which is why people who were terrified of using their magic reserves in that game are really weird. You could replenish your curing magic to bump your HP back up to max after each battle. Skaw has a new favorite as of 00:23 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 00:18
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Section Z posted:Is there any Pokemon game where a Psychic and/or Ghost loving gym leader isn't bullshit? I've only ever played and beaten the old Red/Blue, with and a dust collecting copy of Platinum I never got around to beating (guess what Gym I left off in Olympia in X/Y is comically easy. Liza & Tate are really simple because you have to have Surf to get there, and the Super Rod is in Mossdeep so you can just grab Sharpedos. Morty isn't bad if you have any normal type because his Gengar put all its chips on Shadow Ball (growl 5 times in HG/SS to avoid Sucker Punch btw). RBY Sabrina is the only really bullshit one because she's using an Alakazam in RBY. Alouicious posted:fantina is way easier in platinum than she was in diamond/pearl Dude, she comes waaaaaay earlier in the game and her Mismagius is only ten levels lower and still has the same ol' Shadow Ball/Magical Leaf/Psybeam/Confuse Ray. Very few things can take that Shadow Ball at that point, and fewer still can take Magical Leaf or Psybeam as well. So... you get a Probopass just for this, you mug Bronzor for weeks to get a Metal Coat, or just have a Staravia and hope Confuse Ray/Psybeam don't ruin it too much as you Wing Attack. It's a lot worse in Plat than D/P because you don't have as many options nor as many raw numbers. And no Murkrows either. IIRC for darks you're stuck with Stunky, and I am pretty sure it gets whooped by Shadow Ball anyway.
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May 5, 2015 00:53
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Skaw posted:I really wouldn't say it was a key troll, just mechanics oversight. It was an attempt to keep bosses challenging and also reduce level grinding. The problem also came from the fact that very few people really utilized Junction and a good portion that did were absolutely mortified to cast any spells at all because they were min-maxing autists. If boss levels were kept low you could get by on just brute force physical-only damage mashing the confirm button nonstop. But if you leveled you absolutely needed to junction elements/statuses accordingly to keep bosses from just running you through. I dunno, the fact that they made junctioning tie your magic spell reserves directly into your stats, making them go down with use made it pretty easy to draw the conclusion that using magic was actually a bad thing, as it meant having your stats take hits in order to use them. It's not so much a min-max autist thing as it is yet another reason why that game was ridiculously broken. Up until that point, leveling up=git gud=guys don't hit as hard. Now in FF8 they ask you to instead make it so the magic you grab is how you get stronger, but you should use it anyways, and it just doesn't match up with the mindset of "stronger=better". Dr Pepper posted:There are methods to modify the "Level" stat in FF5, which is used as an attack multiplier. Which are incredibly complicated and long methods that require a lot of outside math, and also do you really want to max out your enemies just to use a single move on them when it'd be easier to just fight them legit?
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May 5, 2015 00:53
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Choco1980 posted:Which are incredibly complicated and long methods that require a lot of outside math, and also do you really want to max out your enemies just to use a single move on them when it'd be easier to just fight them legit? Yeah but every non-undead boss can still be killed by level 5 death. This is just dodging that point. And maxing them isn't a problem when they get two turns at most. No, really, Shinryu got two moves: his opening Tidal Wave, and Level 2 Old. He got way more when I fought him legit.
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May 5, 2015 01:00
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The entire back half of Jet Force Gemini was a big one. You think you beat the final boss, but no. Oh, god no. Now you have to get 12 items to make a space ship. Doesn't sound too bad, right? You get parts by doing things like collecting all 2-3 hundred furry white bear people (mostly in obscure locations). If one gets splattered by a stray bullet, reload the level and do that poo poo again! Or by getting a bear on a secret planet earplugs, which you get by going to a cargo ship, trial-and-erroring your way into a perfect score on a rail shooter mission that's hidden in a secret passage, and bringing them back. At no point are you told to get earplugs, or that you get them by getting a gold on this mission. Usually there's no reason to get a gold on those rail-shooter bits, too. And that's just two parts! That game had fun combat and exploring, but holy poo poo it went crazy with that stuff. And the guide didn't have quite a bit of it in there. There was so much obscure stuff there wasn't even a complete walk-through online for months.
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May 5, 2015 01:53
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Choco1980 posted:I dunno, the fact that they made junctioning tie your magic spell reserves directly into your stats, making them go down with use made it pretty easy to draw the conclusion that using magic was actually a bad thing, as it meant having your stats take hits in order to use them. It's not so much a min-max autist thing as it is yet another reason why that game was ridiculously broken. Up until that point, leveling up=git gud=guys don't hit as hard. Now in FF8 they ask you to instead make it so the magic you grab is how you get stronger, but you should use it anyways, and it just doesn't match up with the mindset of "stronger=better". While I agree it's not really clear in the tutorial and all, the amount that casting a few spells per battle decreases stats is really minimal. Especially since you can hit 9999 HP well before having 100 of the best cure spell. Refining M-Stones or Pieces will immediately cap those back out. The only spells you should really ignore casting are status effects you have junctioned, as percent-chance to apply on hit is a 1:1 ratio based on reserves. I'm not sure if you can reach 255 in attributes with the high tier magics though, but even then casting 3 or 4 per fight isn't going to ding you a whole lot. But well, I guess the REAL troll is that in-game tutorials were really horrible in the 90s. Especially when it came to basically required complex systems and mechanics.
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May 5, 2015 02:17
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Dr Pepper posted:There isn't a non-undead boss in the game that can't be killed by Level 5 Death. I'm pretty sure the whole point of FF5 was to see all the ways you could hideously break that game over your knee. That game was a twinker's paradise with all the insane minmaxing you could do.
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May 5, 2015 02:22
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Ugly In The Morning posted:The entire back half of Jet Force Gemini was a big one. You think you beat the final boss, but no. Oh, god no. Now you have to get 12 items to make a space ship. Doesn't sound too bad, right? Donkey Kong 64 is, of course, the worst offender (the sheer amount of stuff you need to collect is ridiculous even if you're just trying to finish the game and not going for 100%), but most of their games in those days had some ridiculous bullshit like this.
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May 5, 2015 02:35
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Dude, she comes waaaaaay earlier in the game and her Mismagius is only ten levels lower and still has the same ol' Shadow Ball/Magical Leaf/Psybeam/Confuse Ray. Very few things can take that Shadow Ball at that point, and fewer still can take Magical Leaf or Psybeam as well. So... you get a Probopass just for this, you mug Bronzor for weeks to get a Metal Coat, or just have a Staravia and hope Confuse Ray/Psybeam don't ruin it too much as you Wing Attack. It's a lot worse in Plat than D/P because you don't have as many options nor as many raw numbers. And no Murkrows either. IIRC for darks you're stuck with Stunky, and I am pretty sure it gets whooped by Shadow Ball anyway. i replayed it fairly recently and if I'm not misremembering, i didn't have to switch out Torterra for the entire gym. you're way overthinking it e: also you don't have to deal with her driftblim which is way more of a piece of poo poo than mismagius
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May 5, 2015 03:06
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Skaw posted:While I agree it's not really clear in the tutorial and all, the amount that casting a few spells per battle decreases stats is really minimal. Especially since you can hit 9999 HP well before having 100 of the best cure spell. Refining M-Stones or Pieces will immediately cap those back out. The only spells you should really ignore casting are status effects you have junctioned, as percent-chance to apply on hit is a 1:1 ratio based on reserves. I'm not sure if you can reach 255 in attributes with the high tier magics though, but even then casting 3 or 4 per fight isn't going to ding you a whole lot. The poorly translated tutorial doesn't help much yes, but I guess my point is that this game comes during a time when for years games had been encouraging players to hoard all collectables. It's a significant departure from the ingrained patterns that it pretends to have. Also, I'll still not ever be fully convinced that the level scaling wasn't at least partially mean-spirited if for no other reason than the fact that the home-base included the "Training Center" location where you could go fight monsters to your heart's content--right at the beginning of the game. That's basically gently leading people new to the game by the hand right to the pit, then shoving them in head first.
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May 5, 2015 03:28
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Did the later pokemon games have better AI? One of the main reasons the first one was so easy was that every enemy would growl at you 5 times in a row while you killed them.
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May 5, 2015 04:37
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Dr_Amazing posted:Did the later pokemon games have better AI? One of the main reasons the first one was so easy was that every enemy would growl at you 5 times in a row while you killed them. wild pokemon and rando trainers tend to not have very advanced AI but important trainers like your rivals and gym leaders/elite four members/the champion tend to use actual strategy and tactics against you
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May 5, 2015 05:16
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Final Fantasy 2 is a game few people understand. Sounds like Final Fantasy 2... sucks.
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May 5, 2015 05:27
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Doc Morbid posted:Rareware did always know how to The problem with Donkey Kong was that you couldn't just explore it, you had to explore it with several characters. You'd open a door by shooting a switch activated only by on character's weapon, with reveals a corridor with bananas that can only be picked up by another character, and the next room would have a challenge accessible to only a third character. Each character had a few special abilities that allowed them to bypass certain obstacles or solve certain puzzles, but mostly their use came from the fact that the many, many switches you had to flip to proceed had one character's face on it. Dr Christmas has a new favorite as of 05:45 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 05:43
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swamp waste posted:I'm not following you dude. With most of those things, it would be impossible to tell whether they were working as intended or not, and the reason they're Bad or whatever is that when you get down to the mechanics & raw numbers they don't make sense for competitive play, which is absolutely not something 12-year-old me cared about while playin pokemans. Pokemon Gen1 is a horribly buggy, broken mess, to the point that there's an LP devoted to just breaking Blue over its knee. It's got nothing to do with competitive play, it's just that the game is a trainwreck. The fact that it became such a huge sensation in the west starting from those awfully buggy games is incredible. Here's that lp by the way http://lparchive.org/Pokemon-Blue/Update%2001/
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May 5, 2015 05:59
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Literally The Worst posted:Pokemon Gen1 is a horribly buggy, broken mess, to the point that there's an LP devoted to just breaking Blue over its knee. It's got nothing to do with competitive play, it's just that the game is a trainwreck. The fact that it became such a huge sensation in the west starting from those awfully buggy games is incredible. The Pokemon list seems to boil down to "some attacks don't work right" whereas Bethesda games have problems like "crashes every forty-five minutes forcing you to manually reset your console or computer".
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May 5, 2015 07:10
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Jerry Cotton posted:Sounds like Final Fantasy 2... sucks. It really, really does, and I kinda like the game. You can see the good game it was trying to be poke out in lots of places, but at the end of the day it's a tangled, broken mess that explains itself not at all. There's an LP going on right now where two guys that are cousins have taken it upon themselves to play the whole Final Fantasy series in order, which is fun because a lot of the games they're going in like, 98% blind for. They're currently almost half way through part 2 and their naivete that this will be fun has already been shattered into pieces by this game.
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May 5, 2015 07:18
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:
From early in the thread, but I came across a great example of this the other day: In the mobile game Puzzle Forge II, the contents of the shop change from day to day. A piece of iron ore might normally cost 60-80 gold, all the way up to Netherium ore (which takes 81 pieces of iron to make) costing 6000 gold. Every now and then they put a piece of copper ore (worse than iron) up for sale for several thousand. I've read posts from people who bought it and complained that it was just a piece of copper. "I thought it was special, why else would it cost so much?!?"
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May 5, 2015 08:08
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:Petrify (as Break) was god in FF8 because it would end a fight as if you'd run (without giving you any XP as long as you did no damage). This applied to several story fights that you can't run from - unfortunately, it applies to the fight to get into Lunatic Pandora, meaning that if you end the fight with Break on the guards, it counts as having fled, and you have to go to the next point and fight properly (or reload, because you just screwed up your path). Petrify was great in FFX because it was pretty much a death-sentence for any enemy hit by it, you still got exp/gil/items, and you could unlock Petrify Breath fairly early in the game because Kimahri rules. Actually, FFX liked to beat status effects into your brain right from the start. You pretty much always wanted to hit something with a status if you could get away with it, and some bosses were vulnerable to them too. Seymour in particular is always vulnerable to poison, which made getting through his bullshit rematches great.
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May 5, 2015 08:34
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sitchelin posted:Petrify was great in FFX because it was pretty much a death-sentence for any enemy hit by it, you still got exp/gil/items, and you could unlock Petrify Breath fairly early in the game because Kimahri rules.
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May 5, 2015 09:09
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sitchelin posted:Petrify was great in FFX because it was pretty much a death-sentence for any enemy hit by it, you still got exp/gil/items, and you could unlock Petrify Breath fairly early in the game because Kimahri rules. Actually, FFX liked to beat status effects into your brain right from the start. You pretty much always wanted to hit something with a status if you could get away with it, and some bosses were vulnerable to them too. Seymour in particular is always vulnerable to poison, which made getting through his bullshit rematches great. The Yunalesca fight is pretty nasty with regard to status effects. At one point, she'll start healing herself. You either have to wait it out or cast reflect on her, in which case she'll just start casting spells at herself, which hit your party. This, of course, means that you'll need to heal more. But then she pulls out the zombie attack, which means that all healing items now hurt you. Oh, you can just get rid of that? Enjoy her third-phase instadeath move that hits everyone that's not a zombie that she can and will use whenever the hell she wants - and that always comes out right after she changes forms, regardless of the turn order. Also, that zombie attack does not-insignificant damage to add injury to the insult. I hope you remembered to build up your summons' Overdrives ahead of time, because they're sure as hell not lasting for more than two turns of her bullshit. To make up for it, you can gimmick kill the final boss, who has been played up to be this world-ending monster but ends up doing nothing but heal itself every turn. Guess how you gimmick kill it. (Aside: You can also get Seymour's own summon and use it against his lame rear end in the final dungeon. He even comments on it during the fight!)
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May 5, 2015 09:20
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dpbjinc posted:The Yunalesca fight is pretty nasty with regard to status effects. At one point, she'll start healing herself. You either have to wait it out or cast reflect on her, in which case she'll just start casting spells at herself, which hit your party. This, of course, means that you'll need to heal more. But then she pulls out the zombie attack, which means that all healing items now hurt you. Oh, you can just get rid of that? Enjoy her third-phase instadeath move that hits everyone that's not a zombie that she can and will use whenever the hell she wants - and that always comes out right after she changes forms, regardless of the turn order. Also, that zombie attack does not-insignificant damage to add injury to the insult. I hope you remembered to build up your summons' Overdrives ahead of time, because they're sure as hell not lasting for more than two turns of her bullshit. Everything after the Final Aeon is a  level joke. Auto-life just shows up on the party after that fight so you can just hammer physical attacks all day and breeze through it.
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May 5, 2015 10:08
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Skaw posted:I really wouldn't say it was a key troll, just mechanics oversight. It was an attempt to keep bosses challenging and also reduce level grinding. The problem also came from the fact that very few people really utilized Junction and a good portion that did were absolutely mortified to cast any spells at all because they were min-maxing autists. If boss levels were kept low you could get by on just brute force physical-only damage mashing the confirm button nonstop. But if you leveled you absolutely needed to junction elements/statuses accordingly to keep bosses from just running you through. They may have had the right idea, but junctioning and level scaling mechanics still punish players for actually playing the game and exploring beyond the story-given rails. With level scaling, most enemies also gain new types of "go gently caress yourself"-special attacks when they level up which you may or may not be able to counter at that point, and junctioning means that you have to make yourself weaker to use any magic in fight, a state which may or may not be repairable after that fight. Aggressive level scaling is always a terrible idea, but for example, why can't the junctioned spells and available spells be two different pools?
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May 5, 2015 11:31
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The tutorial in the original Driver 
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