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Discendo Vox posted:My point is that an argument from uncertainty produces a paranoid mindset. Great point. Police really need to get their paranoia in check and realize most people, and especially black people, aren't out to murder them at any second.
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Aug 14, 2015 18:25
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DARPA posted:Great point. Police really need to get their paranoia in check and realize most people, and especially black people, aren't out to murder them at any second. As others have pointed out in the past page of posts, "police" as a homogeneous mass don't do this. You're embodying the incorrect approach I was and am arguing against.
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Aug 14, 2015 18:27
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DARPA posted:Great point. People really need to get their paranoia in check and realize most cops, and especially white cops, aren't out to murder them at any second. It works out both ways.
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Aug 14, 2015 18:29
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Discendo Vox posted:My point is that an argument from uncertainty produces a paranoid mindset. Are you arguing that when minorities are detained by police, they have no reason to be paranoid?
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Aug 14, 2015 18:29
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Discendo Vox posted:As others have pointed out in the past page of posts, "police" as a homogeneous mass don't do this. You're embodying the incorrect approach I was and am arguing against. What they do is congeal into a homogeneous mass to defend it and fight to keep doing it with impunity.
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Aug 14, 2015 18:31
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Discendo Vox posted:As others have pointed out in the past page of posts, "police" as a homogeneous mass don't do this. You're embodying the incorrect approach I was and am arguing against. Then they need to stop training police in this fashion. Like, every single cadet in many jurisdictions will go through that stupid "Look how fast this guy with a knife can run up and kill you" and "Let's watch this entire video of a cop being murdered" Cole posted:It works out both ways. If cops are scared of us, and we are scared of cops, I'd say that we should expect the group who is a professional organization being paid to act first. Whereas if we stop being afraid of cops, and accidentally treat them like a normal human who understand that people do things like pull out wallets, then cops react poorly and murder people.
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Aug 14, 2015 18:31
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Discendo Vox posted:As others have pointed out in the past page of posts, "police" as a homogeneous mass don't do this. You're embodying the incorrect approach I was and am arguing against. The problem here is that if I'm irrationally paranoid of a nice officer, the worst I do is hurt his/her feelings. If an officer is irrationally paranoid of me, I could end up beaten, my property taken from me, or dead with little recourse. The consequences of being paranoid against a good cop in this case greatly outweigh the consequences of not being paranoid of the bad.
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Aug 14, 2015 18:51
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Our judicial system is so blatantly and demonstrably racist that it is inconceivable that any minority will get through life without being unfairly targeted by the police because of their race.
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Aug 14, 2015 18:58
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captainblastum posted:Our judicial system is so blatantly and demonstrably racist that it is inconceivable that any minority will get through life without being unfairly targeted by the police because of their race. Thats the thing. Yes, many cops are fine. However, enough are not, meaning that every african american I know, including DAs and cops have a "harrassed because I'm black" story. Very few people have a "that time my plane crashed" story.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:06
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Cole posted:It works out both ways. Actually concidering that cops that do try and stop brutality and aren't out to murder black people are fired and punished for not using violence assuming that all cops want to murder you if you're black is probably a safe bet.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:11
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Dr Pepper posted:Actually concidering that cops that do try and stop brutality and aren't out to murder black people are fired and punished for not using violence assuming that all cops want to murder you if you're black is probably a safe bet. You're going to need significantly more than two situations to convince me that this is the norm.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:13
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It's basically Not All Cops, but #YesAllMinorities. Most cops aren't abusive, but thanks to them permitting and even protecting abuse, cops who ARE abusive sure get around.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:15
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Cole posted:You're going to need significantly more than two situations to convince me that this is the norm. Do you really think those are the only two examples? There are many more, what is the number you will need in order to be convinced? Would a hundred do it?
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Aug 14, 2015 19:24
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SedanChair posted:Do you really think those are the only two examples? There are many more, what is the number you will need in order to be convinced? Would a hundred do it? You said 100, not me. Go for it.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:25
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Cole posted:You said 100, not me. Go for it. No I am asking you a question. If you got a hundred examples would you be convinced?
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Aug 14, 2015 19:29
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SedanChair posted:No I am asking you a question. If you got a hundred examples would you be convinced? I can't predict the future. Post 100 and we'll find out.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:30
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Cole posted:I can't predict the future. Post 100 and we'll find out. This is a refusal to answer. But I can answer, because many more than two examples have been posted and you are acting as though only two have been given.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:33
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SedanChair posted:This is a refusal to answer. But I can answer, because many more than two examples have been posted and you are acting as though only two have been given. Yeah but 100 examples definitely haven't been given, so you still have a quota to meet to find out if I will be convinced or not.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:35
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Cole posted:Yeah but 100 examples definitely haven't been given, so you still have a quota to meet to find out if I will be convinced or not. Incorrect, because you haven't answered my question. You proposed that "more than two" examples were needed, and I asked if 100 would do it. You haven't answered, and given your willful ignorance even an affirmative reply would make me skeptical.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:45
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SedanChair posted:Incorrect, because you haven't answered my question. You proposed that "more than two" examples were needed, and I asked if 100 would do it. You haven't answered, and given your willful ignorance even an affirmative reply would make me skeptical. because i don't know if 100 will convince me. it's possible, but i can't be sure. you should post 100 and find out. maybe it will work.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:46
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Cole posted:because i don't know if 100 will convince me. it's possible, but i can't be sure. Spoilers: No amount of examples will convince you.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:50
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Dr Pepper posted:Spoilers: No amount of examples will convince you. how do you know? i'm starting to think sedanchair doesn't have 100 examples at all... imagine if people thought like this in real life. "man, no amount of anything will convince these cops to stop acting this way... we should just say gently caress it and give up" what a horrible way to get justice, or to get people on your side.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:51
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Cole posted:how do you know? Because you're racist and a cop apologist and the point of you asking for more examples is another example of one constantly moving the goalposts.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:54
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Cole posted:i'm starting to think sedanchair doesn't have 100 examples at all... You're missing the point. I doubt you could find 100 stories about someone pissing on their boss's car but that doesn't mean you won't get fired for doing it. If an action is understood as something you get fired for doing, guess what - people don't do it all that much. That doesn't mean it doesn't affect their actions.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:54
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lfield posted:You're missing the point. like a cop getting fired for not being violent. probably relatively rare. Dr Pepper posted:Because you're racist and a cop apologist and the point of you asking for more examples is another example of one constantly moving the goalposts. i didn't set those goalposts, sedanchair did. i just went with it.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:57
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Cole posted:like a cop getting fired for not being violent. probably relatively rare. ... because cops who try to stop police abuse are rare. Not because police abuse doesn't happen, and not because police departments won't fire people for trying to stop abuse.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:59
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Sedanchair was using hyperbole, then you jumped on it as if it's a literal thing. Nobody is ever actually going to dig for 100 different news articles detailing police misconduct because that's way to much effort for an internet argument.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:59
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lfield posted:... because cops who try to stop police abuse are rare. Not because police abuse doesn't happen, and not because police departments won't fire people for trying to stop abuse. we aren't talking about stopping police abuse. we are talking about cops who don't get violent getting fired for not getting violent. not the same thing at all. Dr Pepper posted:Sedanchair was using hyperbole, then you jumped on it as if it's a literal thing. Nobody is ever actually going to dig for 100 different news articles detailing police misconduct because that's way to much effort for an internet argument. because they don't exist, because it's a ridiculous anomaly that it even happened twice. but when you tout two situations in this manner: Dr Pepper posted:Actually concidering that cops that do try and stop brutality and aren't out to murder black people are fired and punished for not using violence assuming that all cops want to murder you if you're black is probably a safe bet. you make it sound like that is the only thing that happens when cops aren't violent. two examples aren't enough to convince anyone of such a thing, so the entire point of bringing up those two situations is lost if you can't come up with more. sedanchair said 100. don't be hyperbolic if you don't want people to call your bluff.
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Aug 14, 2015 20:03
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ehh that's mean
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 20:06
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Cole posted:we aren't talking about stopping police abuse. Dr Pepper posted:Actually concidering that cops that do try and stop brutality and aren't out to murder black people are fired and punished for not using violence assuming that all cops want to murder you if you're black is probably a safe bet. Dr Pepper said cops that try to "stop brutality". And one of the original 2 links is about a cop getting fired for trying to stop another cop's abuse. I think you're trying to narrow the conversation to a specific set of circumstances to make it harder for people to provide examples.
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Aug 14, 2015 20:08
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Devor posted:Then they need to stop training police in this fashion. Like, every single cadet in many jurisdictions will go through that stupid "Look how fast this guy with a knife can run up and kill you" and "Let's watch this entire video of a cop being murdered" I think you're missing the point of those lessons, but to be fair, I'd guess more than a few cadets do to. Every pilot has to go through the "this his how fast your life can turn into poo poo on takeoff/landing/in the pattern" sim, and has to read graphic accounts of pilots dying due to second-to-second decisions. The message isn't that every takeoff should be conducted in a state of fear, with one hand on the firewall cutoffs; the point is that, while most takeoffs are fine, you never know which one is going to turn into an emergency situation, and the way to give yourself the best odds of making it through is through training and vigilance. Same thing with traffic stops and DV calls.
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Aug 14, 2015 20:12
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lfield posted:Dr Pepper said cops that try to "stop brutality". And one of the original 2 links is about a cop getting fired for trying to stop another cop's abuse. Really my point was that Cole went all NotAllCops, and so I pointed out that it's been shown that when cops do try and act better, they tend to stop being cops.
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Aug 14, 2015 20:16
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Dr Pepper posted:Really my point was that Cole went all NotAllCops, and so I pointed out that it's been shown that when cops do try and act better, they tend to stop being cops. this is a blanket statement that you and sedanchair are unable to back up. two situations where it happened is not backing up your point. we went to the moon before, that doesn't mean we go all the time.
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Aug 14, 2015 20:20
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Cole posted:this is a blanket statement that you and sedanchair are unable to back up. two situations where it happened is not backing up your point. we went to the moon before, that doesn't mean we go all the time. So just because it happens infrequently, we shouldn't be vigilant for when it does happen?
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Aug 14, 2015 20:22
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Cole posted:i'm going to numerically list them rather than edit the quote structure Come on, this is just pathetic. You're being overly literal and shifting the goalposts when people show you to be wrong. Police forces punish officers who try to stop violent abuse, whether through non-cooperation or whistleblowing or whatever. You're asking for examples that fit very narrow specifications that you just made up. You were the one to say "fired for not being violent" remember. Dr Pepper's original post says "fired and punished"
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Aug 14, 2015 20:23
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Garrand posted:I cut my own hair all the time. If I mess up I don't end up in jail. The problem with this whole conversation is, occasional dumb post aside, it's not so much about acting as your own lawyer as that when cops suddenly show up at your door knowing your rights can be the difference between them walking off and hauling you in. Just the ability to cover your own rear end and make sure you don't accidentally incriminate yourself in some fashion. There are certain things which someone might be legally required to do (like providing license and registration when driving a vehicle). In any other type of situation you'd be well advised to follow this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc The basics don't require a library or extensive legal research. Zarkov Cortez fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 20:24
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