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Neeksy posted:One thing I'm still trying to figure out: Why does the game itself replace Frisk's name with the player-chosen name of the first fallen kid? I'm trying to remember if any of the other characters refer to you by that name, especially since Toriel and Asgore should have some kind of reaction to it. Is the game interface essentially from Asriel's perspective, since he's the one projecting that identity onto Frisk? Otherwise, I'm a bit confused by the game's use of that kind of subterfuge. Plus if the player is the one who names that character, it feels like there's some kind of implications towards the timeline going on. Maybe I'm overthinking this. No, these are valid questions and they have me wondering as well. The naming stuff is pretty confusing, and gets back to the question of how many people are tied up in the player. There's Frisk, who is the child that fell down into Toriel's ruins, but there's also the Fallen Child that the player names and then there's the Player themselves, and the lines between them get fuzzy. I am pretty sure the characters use the name you give, not Frisk, except after you find out the child's name is Frisk and then they start using it as though they'd been saying Frisk all along, so there's definitely some perspective deception there. One thing I don't understand well about the Fallen Child is were they some kind of murderer before they died? Asriel doesn't want them to go and is filled with grief and loneliness, but it's harder to get a grasp on the character of the child that he was a brother to. I think there's a bit in Alyph's videos that suggests they were planning to collect seven human souls themselves as part of a breakout plan, and he seems to be the only unabashedly evil, irredeemable force in the game. I'm a little unclear from watching the Genocide playthrough but I think the idea is their spirit is lingering and can possess Frisk if you lead Frisk into violence, hence the confusing way you're basically three people. What makes it a little hard to understand is you need to use clues from all the different playthroughs to piece this identity together. If the Fallen Child is kind of like the real villain or at least potentially the most dangerous thing you can unleash by causing a Genocide playthrough, it's kind of a pity that there's no way to confront them or defeat them. They're not just part of you, the player, they're some kind of distinct entity (hence why they want your soul) but even in the pacifist ending they're there somewhere, unaddressed. You'd only have the barest indication that they existed. It'd be kind of neat if there was some kind of meta-level true pacifist ending you could only get by drawing the Fallen Child out first by playing through a Genocide run, Asriel was ultimately just lost and frightened, warped by experiments and if anything seemed to be posturing the Fallen Child's cruelty (hence their breakdown in the Genocide ending). It'd also be gutsy if the only way you could defeat the real malignancy in the game was to draw it out of yourself first. Dolash fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 00:07
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I really, really wanna play over from the beginning now that I've finished the game so I can pick up on all the things I missed my first time through, but I'd feel bad starting over.  Maybe I can make things even better this time!!! I don't know how but somehow!!!
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Sep 22, 2015 00:08
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Dodecalypse posted:Hey what's the song that plays Postgame? I can't find it on youtube of Toby's bandcamp, and I really liked it when I was wandering around saying goodbye to my friends (AARON) before I left to the surface. That specific song is Reunited I'm pretty sure.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:10
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Lilli posted:Youre also missing the obvious trapped reference because shes s god drat spider and youre literally trapped on a spider web. I didn't miss it, it just had nothing to do with the color themes that were being discussed. 
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Sep 22, 2015 00:12
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So what happens if you You press the random button at the end of core, if you explore the entire thing before fighting Mettatron. Nothing seemed to happen..
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Sep 22, 2015 00:12
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Pollyanna posted:Maybe I can make things even better this time!!! I don't know how but somehow!!! You probably can! You know how the monsters had white or yellow names in the full credits? A white name means you never found the best outcome to their fight.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:13
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From what I remember, every time anyone in the game talks to you, they just call you "human"
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Sep 22, 2015 00:13
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Dolash posted:It'd also be gutsy if the only way you could defeat the real malignancy in the game was to draw it out of yourself first. I'd contest this - I think the Fallen Child represents the always non-zero chance that a player can at any time decide to go "gently caress it" and murder everything. He represents the potential of being a genocidal maniac, and outright stopping something from being conceivable is kind of logically impossible. repiv posted:You probably can! You know how the monsters had white or yellow names in the full credits? A white name means you never found the best outcome to their fight. Oh, are any of them missable? Is there something that tracks this ingame?
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Sep 22, 2015 00:13
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IShallRiseAgain posted:So what happens if you You press the random button at the end of core, if you explore the entire thing before fighting Mettatron. Nothing seemed to happen.. Did you miss where the first sign said "warriors go this way, scholars that way"? Because if you chose the warriors path and then went and solved a puzzle it would be the puzzle that did nothing.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:17
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Dolash posted:I am pretty sure the characters use the name you give, not Frisk, except after you find out the child's name is Frisk and then they start using it as though they'd been saying Frisk all along, so there's definitely some perspective deception there. You're only ever called "child" or "human". The only one calling you by the fallen child's name is Asriel and he freely admits he was projecting on you. Krinkle posted:Did you miss where the first sign said "warriors go this way, scholars that way"? Because if you chose the warriors path and then went and solved a puzzle it would be the puzzle that did nothing. Woah what, you only have to do one? I've always been doing both as a matter of course.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:20
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Pollyanna posted:I'd contest this - I think the Fallen Child represents the always non-zero chance that a player can at any time decide to go "gently caress it" and murder everything. He represents the potential of being a genocidal maniac, and outright stopping something from being conceivable is kind of logically impossible. You can miss some enemies. You can also spare enemies in a way that doesn't get them yellow text. The yellow text signifies you helped them grow or brought them happiness in some manner. For example, you can end a fight with Aaron by flexing a bunch, but that won't get you the yellow name
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Sep 22, 2015 00:20
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 Does anyone have an HD version of this image? I'd like it for my wallpaper.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:24
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 I drew everyone's pal. The most out of character piece of this picture is sans walking anywhere.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:27
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Pollyanna posted:I'd contest this - I think the Fallen Child represents the always non-zero chance that a player can at any time decide to go "gently caress it" and murder everything. He represents the potential of being a genocidal maniac, and outright stopping something from being conceivable is kind of logically impossible. Yeah, I agree with this, really, you "defeat" the Fallen Child by never finishing the Genocide run in the first place. He died long ago, any by never going down his path, you never revive him.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:27
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Dodecalypse posted:It's ok, I found something to tide me over until my next paycheck until I can buy the full soundtrack. God the first time I encountered one of those in the mushroom zone I had no loving idea. My friend who was watching me and had already beaten the game didn't offer me any tips either. I chose FLEX and she says that's not cute, then Aaron shows up and chases her away because he's gross and sweaty
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Sep 22, 2015 00:28
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Krinkle posted:Did you miss where the first sign said "warriors go this way, scholars that way"? Because if you chose the warriors path and then went and solved a puzzle it would be the puzzle that did nothing.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:28
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Kitfox88 posted:God the first time I encountered one of those in the mushroom zone I had no loving idea. My friend who was watching me and had already beaten the game didn't offer me any tips either. I chose FLEX and she says that's not cute, then Aaron shows up and chases her away because he's gross and sweaty hOI!!
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Sep 22, 2015 00:34
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Pollyanna posted:I'd contest this - I think the Fallen Child represents the always non-zero chance that a player can at any time decide to go "gently caress it" and murder everything. He represents the potential of being a genocidal maniac, and outright stopping something from being conceivable is kind of logically impossible. They're that, but they're also a specific character with their own backstory in the game, or at least they were such a thing before they died and became twisted into the Fallen Child. It'd be interesting if perhaps their soul was around as a husk and took whatever you put into it, so if it was malignancy and murder you turn them into the monster, but I feel like as presented the Fallen Child still exists even in the event that the player does no harm. They're not just the floating potential, your potential for murder is what can actualize them and empower them to take control of Frisk, but as the soul of Asriel's adoptive sibling they're still dormant in the game in either case. It feels like an unaddressed mystery that can only lead to harm if investigated, but if you wanted the full truth of what happened you'd have to Have A Bad Time. I went into this game very nearly blind, but to be honest I already knew that you could kill or spare the boss at the end of the demo, or optionally appear to spare them then sneak-attack them, and a 4th-wall breaking flower would know what you'd done. There's no doubt that influenced me to be merciful from the very start rather than experimenting with killing monsters and relying on save-scumming, and I sort of wish I could've approached it completely blind while at the same time being weirdly anxious about what I might've done.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:35
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finished this game last night, watched the genocide ending (there was no way I could even ATTEMPT it, I'm the kind of player that goes for 100% good every single time when I get the option in video games) and just...god, I have no words. This game is so, so good. I laughed hard at most of it, felt for the characters, and even though I was spoiled on some major stuff, it didn't ruin my enjoyment of the game at all. For me, this is definitely 2015's GOTY, and I feel like it should be for a lot of people. Hell, it made me like a character I was getting annoyed with, just by revealing what happened to her to make her the, uh....mess that she is now. While I'm still interested to see where the datamined/bugged stuff with the wing dings guy goes, I'm content with the game right now. So many wonderful things packed in, and although it's short, it has way more entertainment value for me than a lot of current triple-A titles. Games like this is why I love the indie scene - while there's a lot of crap out there, every now and then a pure, polished diamond breaks out of the rough and basically blindsides you. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Quick question, though - while I know about the rumor with something happening if you beat the genocide ending multiple times, is there any rumors about anything happening if you do true pacifist multiple times?
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Sep 22, 2015 00:35
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Zerilan posted:Yeah, I agree with this, really, you "defeat" the Fallen Child by never finishing the Genocide run in the first place. He died long ago, any by never going down his path, you never revive him. You revived the Fallen at the very beginning of the game when you called its name. Pacifism just keeps it weak enough so that it never gets to assert itself. The Fallen and Frisk are both representatives of violence and peace, respectively, and it's only at the end of their respective True runs when they assert themselves as separate from the player. And yeah, I've said before that trying to "defeat" the Fallen is counter-intuitive. It embodies the very idea that you can overcome obstacles by fighting and defeating them, and someone, somewhere, will always call its name again and bring it back to life.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:36
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Thanks for the info, a lot of the pieces are falling into place now. I was trying to remember if they ever used the name, but now it makes sense that they only said 'human' or 'child'. So maybe the interface using the child's name in your battle and status windows was instead another statistic, like HP, of the level to which Frisk is possessed by the soul. If so, that's pretty tricky, using our expectations of menus and all that. The fact that the player names the child, though, I still wonder about. Maybe there was no other way to effectively misdirect you without going through the motions of the RPG character-naming convention. [edit] Nevermind, I think Oxxidation's explanation above might solve this for me.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:37
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Genocide final boss stuff but wellllllllllllp. it was only a matter of time before someone did thisSupercar Gautier posted:It's significant that the name is placed right next to LV in battles; it's actually there to indicate how strong Fallen's spirit is. As long as you stay good, that spirit stays at LV1 and doesn't get stronger. Notably, the name disappears from the battle screen while the monsters tell you the story at Asgore's house, and possibly in other places too.  this loving game.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:38
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Nevileen posted:Quick question, though - while I know about the rumor with something happening if you beat the genocide ending multiple times, is there any rumors about anything happening if you do true pacifist multiple times? There's a fantastic easter egg sequence involving Sans that most people wouldn't likely find until a second consecutive pacifist playthrough (but can actually be gotten on your first). After his hallway speech, you can either immediately quit and reload (most people wouldn't think to try this), or finish your run and then play through the game again. Either way, the second time he gives the speech, he'll realize you've heard it before. Then something happens.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:40
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Neeksy posted:The fact that the player names the child, though, I still wonder about. Maybe there was no other way to effectively misdirect you without going through the motions of the RPG character-naming convention. I do like the basic misdirection that you're asked to name the Fallen Child and so obviously you assume it's this kid here who's just fallen into the underworld, and no the Fallen Child. One of those ohhhhhh moments when it clicks.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:43
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I feel like it's a little bit of a weakness, personally, as it depends on how you name your characters in other games. If you tend to name characters (and thus name the fallen) after yourself, it tends to reflect the Fallen is you. If you tend to name characters the same thing, but not your own name, it represents the person you become when you play a video game, where you're essentially a Greek god dicking over arbitrary people as you see fit. Probably the best outcome for the game's meaning. If you prefer to make all the characters you play their own unique thing, it falls rather flat, since you don't have any expectations of the character to be subverted.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:47
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Supercar Gautier posted:There's a fantastic easter egg sequence involving Sans that most people wouldn't likely find until a second consecutive pacifist playthrough (but can actually be gotten on your first). Welp, looks like I have something to try out. Thanks!
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Sep 22, 2015 00:49
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Tenebrais posted:I feel like it's a little bit of a weakness, personally, as it depends on how you name your characters in other games. This is true, but the first two options are probably a lot more common than the third.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:51
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Tenebrais posted:I feel like it's a little bit of a weakness, personally, as it depends on how you name your characters in other games. What does it mean if you name your character bonerz?
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Sep 22, 2015 00:51
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IShallRiseAgain posted:What does it mean if you name your character bonerz? it means the fallen child is kind of a dick 
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Sep 22, 2015 00:53
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IShallRiseAgain posted:What does it mean if you name your character bonerz? I guess it means you want to gently caress This Gay Earth. Which... actually fits.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:53
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I almost gave my own name to the save file, but I flipped the first letter of my name upside-down ala Don't Starve, so it had a pretty unique meaning to me.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:54
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Tenebrais posted:I feel like it's a little bit of a weakness, personally, as it depends on how you name your characters in other games.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:54
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Tenebrais posted:I feel like it's a little bit of a weakness, personally, as it depends on how you name your characters in other games. It works because in most games, you have no other option that to do exactly what the Fallen wants - to kill whatever's in your path until you reach the end. In that regard, nearly every character you've ever played has been somehow "tainted" by the Fallen. Its name might be different each time, but you've always called its name. "It doesn't matter when. It doesn't matter where. I will come. And with your help. We will eradicate the enemy and become strong." By externalizing the urge to grind levels and games' capacity for violence as its own, distinctly malevolent entity that eventually breaks the yoke of the player's control, Undertale attempts to illustrate just how messed up that trend is today, and offers an alternative with Frisk's Pacifism run. The Genocide run offers ever-higher numbers, huge challenges, and lots of combat. The Pacifism run gives you the brunt of the story and emotional highs. Creating that divide, and its representatives in the Fallen and Frisk, lets the game engage its navel-gazing without seeming hypocritical, at least.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:54
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Accordion Man posted:Yeah, I fell into the third category because I always just go with the canon names when a RPG lets me name the characters. I just named the MC Sam because it was a unisex name and I remembered that the MC has no real set gender. Same for me, right down to using Sam. I've actually had to stop myself referring to the fallen child as Sam because no one would know who I'm talking about, but that's all the name means in the game for me. If it weren't written on the save file I'd have completely forgotten I named the character. Oxxidation posted:It works because in most games, you have no other option that to do exactly what the Fallen wants - to kill whatever's in your path until you reach the end. In that regard, nearly every character you've ever played has been somehow "tainted" by the Fallen. Its name might be different each time, but you've always called its name.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:57
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IShallRiseAgain posted:What does it mean if you name your character bonerz? That you, too, appreciate the value of the whoopee cushion in the hand trick. funny EVERY time.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:58
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Might have been posted before, but just in case to add to how everything in the game has some sort of purpose, I saw a post showing that if you call Toriel in the secret artifact room past the Piano it will say "the ringing is coming from inside your inventory." and this disappears once the annoying dog is used/remove and goes off with the artifact. The only reason Toriel never answered back is because the dog stole her phone. I haven't checked to be sure, but if this is true the game yet again blown my mind.
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Sep 22, 2015 01:01
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Holy poo poo I never noticed during the first Mettaton fight Alphys mimes out all the correct answers with her hands. How did I miss that 
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Sep 22, 2015 01:01
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Zerilan posted:Yeah, I agree with this, really, you "defeat" the Fallen Child by never finishing the Genocide run in the first place. He died long ago, any by never going down his path, you never revive him. This makes me wonder, does the game say anything if you subvert the genocide by, right at the end, sparing Asgore and Flowey? Is that even possible or are you locked in by then, by story or mechanics?
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Sep 22, 2015 01:01
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Also, going back to abstract references of "you", I'm pretty sure the player is what represents DETERMINATION (always in all caps  ). Monsters can't handle taking that much DETERMINATION without melting because they aren't the player character. They're background characters who lose their sense of identity, then their forms. When you start the game, you Name the Fallen Child, which - as stated in the Genocide ending - is what calls that darkness that is now their entire being into existence again. The Fallen Child then glues your DETERMINATION to Frisk, in an attempt to escape the underground again to destroy everything. Thus, the battle is always a morality play - if you work with the Fallen, then they can happily get free and destroy worlds When you get teamed up with Frisk (and the Fallen), though, suddenly your DETERMINATION is the focal point of the narrative. Flowey - who had been using his own DETERMINATION beforehand - suddenly finds that he's having a bad time again and can't SAVE (also always in all caps) with your DETERMINATION being the now-driving force. He drove the backstory, but now you drive the story. In the neutral ending, he uses the powers of the six human souls to make his own DETERMINATION absolute, and ends up in control of "the universe" (read: the game executable itself) until you can wrest those six souls back out of his grip when he's not looking, which is coincidentally when he loses his power to properly SAVE again and he getttts dunked on. Remember, in the genocide ending, the Fallen makes explicit references to Frisk's soul. Frisk's DETERMINATION. The Fallen wants to be controlled by you, wants that DETERMINATION. The Fallen wants to be the player character. and since you've gone along with his wishes, you easily make that last sacrifice - Frisk's soul. Now, even on a pacifist run, The Fallen will win, because you agreed to it. You're now controlling the Fallen Child, though it's through Frisk's body. If you never give into the Fallen Child, then you alone keep Frisk standing in order to achieve the "best" ending. You - the DETERMINATION - are the one who chooses to SAVE Asriel, if only for that one, fleeting moment. And you, the DETERMINATION, are the only one able to say when it ends. You can wipe anything and everything, whenever you want. Nothing stopping you. The Fallen will remember, if you gave in to his power. That's part of your contract, isn't it? But nothing else will.
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Sep 22, 2015 01:01
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Ciaphas posted:This makes me wonder, does the game say anything if you subvert the genocide by, right at the end, sparing Asgore and Flowey? Is that even possible or are you locked in by then, by story or mechanics? Your last chance is Mettatron EX. He even has a comment along the lines of, "If you were trying to be pure evil, it looks like you failed." Sans will still rake you over the coals, but he won't fight you.
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Sep 22, 2015 01:02
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