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Iretep posted:Pretty sure Undyne only stops trying to kill you if she faints from exhaustion. She's not a Boss Monster, and as this thread has shown, she is determined.
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Nov 15, 2015 14:27
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I think that as much as the difficulty of the Omega Flowey and Asriel fights is illusory, the lack of difficulty is also illusory in a way. In the first case, you have to consider that Omega Flowey changes all the rules of the battle system: it is not turn-based, you do not have to wait for your turn to use any options available to you, and you can't use healing items. Anywhere else in the game, if your HP got low, you would use a healing item. The "logarithmic damage" scaling just kinda makes up for not being able to do that. (But then you do get opportunities for heals, but these require their own little minigames to get.) With Asriel, if it seems like immediately re-spawning in battle makes it a no-difficulty fight, well... the central meta-narrative and meta-gaming conceit of Undertale is about the nature of saving your game and reloading when you lose. It is something that both the player and the player's character and other characters in the game engage in. One of the implications of this is the suggestion that there fundamentally isn't any actual challenge in a game with saving and loading besides a test of willpower: if you are determined to win the game, you'll just keep loading up your save until you win. Someone said that the instant re-spawn just saves you the time of sitting through the cut-scene, and functionally it does, but this means that it's not that the fight lacks difficulty in terms of the challenge of dodging Asriel's attacks. Rather, it's that it lacks a degree of tedium it would otherwise have, which means it's easier on your willpower, the only thing a game with saving and loading really tests. What does blunt the challenge of Asriel is that you don't have to start from the beginning of his series of attacks, though. eta: I'm also not saying that I fully agree with this idea, that the real challenge is all willpower, but it's interesting and food for thought and Asriel's fight is one of the two big showcases for it (the other is Sans, for entirely different reasons). GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 15:17
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Other games have the last form of the final boss be unable to kill you, too. FF10, in particular, pulls the same "oh, you died? No you didn't  " trick.The only difference is that Undertale has a few cutscenes and a new dungeon between the first and last phase of the final boss.  Edit: and also the Asriel battle is actually fun. Edward_Tohr fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 16:35
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But FFX did have a real Final Boss in Braska's Final Aeon, and the fight after that was mostly mop-up to put down a corpse that didn't yet realize he was dead.
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Nov 15, 2015 16:47
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pumpinglemma posted:This cute animation just got posted in the main thread. This hasn't gotten enough love.
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Nov 15, 2015 16:55
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FFX also wasn't aware of the fact that the player can reload the game in the same way as Undertale. Save points had the "record your journey" conceit, but iirc no NPCs were aware of having killed you, there's no in-narrative term or explanation for this ability, etc. I'm not saying that Undertale is the first game with an un-lose-able final boss, My prior favorite self-aware take on this sort of thing is Prince of Persia framing the whole game as the narrator's exploits, and dying is him messing up the details of his story and saying "Wait, no, that's not what happened..." GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 16:58
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Pureauthor posted:But FFX did have a real Final Boss in Braska's Final Aeon, and the fight after that was mostly mop-up to put down a corpse that didn't yet realize he was dead. Right. And Undertale has a real final boss in Photoshop Flowey. Sure, the game stacks the deck in your favor there, but he's Actually, does the Asriel fight set up checkpoints on certain rounds, or does dying just give you a fancy full-heal animation?
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Nov 15, 2015 17:01
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GunnerJ posted:(Although I never beat FFX so maybe there's some meta at the end I don't know about.) No meta stuff, you party just gets permanent Auto-Life.
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Nov 15, 2015 17:03
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Edward_Tohr posted:Actually, does the Asriel fight set up checkpoints on certain rounds, or does dying just give you a fancy full-heal animation? It starts you off three or so of Asriel's attacks back from the one that killed you.
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Nov 15, 2015 17:13
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YF-23 posted:No meta stuff, you party just gets permanent Auto-Life. Yeah, it's legitimately impossible to die unless you put Petrification forges on your weapons and attack your own characters.
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Nov 15, 2015 17:35
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Captain Bravo posted:This hasn't gotten enough love. I just bought this game and being spoiled on everything isn't making it any less great.
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Nov 15, 2015 18:20
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Dr. Buttass posted:Yeah this is why it bugs me when people complain about the no mercy run being less satisfying narratively and otherwise, I was kind of arguing about it with someone else earlier in the thread. There are certain things in games where it's like, yes, you personally do not like it, but this was a deliberate design decision made to make the game play or feel a certain way, which it does, successfully, and therefore you can't actually say it makes the game worse, because that means the game would be objectively better without it (unless it's so utterly rank that there was clear malice in it to begin with, but I don't have any examples of that at the moment); up until now my go-to example was Baby Mario's crying in Yoshi's Island but Undertale's no mercy run might supplant it. In both cases there was a deliberate decision made to do things this way because otherwise the game everyone loves doesn't happen. For Baby Mario, when Mario was quiet, playtesters would just ignore him and go off doing their own thing, and the timer would run out, and they'd lose the life; so they put in a sound which the human brain is hard-wired by evolution to hate to motivate them to get him back so he'd shut the gently caress up, because it turns out "if you don't then you lose the game" isn't much of a motivation for gamers I guess. So you can gripe that it was annoying but the only response I really have is "yeah that was the point, good job, you got almost as far as the guy trying to make a fun game for people to play."\ Or you don't play Yoshi's Island because of said annoying baby.  At least Undertale gives you options on how to play. 'Cause I'd leave Baby Mario for dead if I could.
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Nov 15, 2015 18:42
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pumpinglemma posted:This cute animation just got posted in the main thread. Just quoting this for those of you who haven't seen it  
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Nov 15, 2015 18:46
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pumpinglemma posted:This cute animation just got posted in the main thread. https://vine.co/v/e0IBx0T2aBY
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Nov 15, 2015 19:01
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I've heard a rumor the game crashes if you deliberately attempt suicide in papyrus' absoluetly normal attack.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:02
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Refusing is also useful for less experienced players - the fight has attacks that look REALLY intimidating compared to the rest of the game, and I bet a lot of people would simply give up if they got the regular game over screen a couple times. Refusing is a way to keep them in the action and directly remind them to bit give up when they're so close to the end Forgot this was after flowey so my point isn't as strong, but still think it's valid in a way
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Nov 15, 2015 19:04
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Flowey checkpoints his own game after a while I believe, so you aren't starting from scratch. But if you die a lot before the first soul intermission there's gonna be a fair amount of game exiting. You can always challenge yourself to not see the various game-over (nope, not really ) screens if you want greater difficulty.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:13
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Sentient Data posted:Refusing is also useful for less experienced players - the fight has attacks that look REALLY intimidating compared to the rest of the game, and I bet a lot of people would simply give up if they got the regular game over screen a couple times. Refusing is a way to keep them in the action and directly remind them to bit give up when they're so close to the end Less experienced players may also be very concerned once they come out of the true lab, thinking they're stuck and can't go back for healing items and that saving at the end could put them in an unwinnable state.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:39
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Tunicate posted:I've heard a rumor the game crashes if you deliberately attempt suicide in papyrus' absoluetly normal attack. I've saw a blind run of the game where someone got dropped to 1 HP during one of Papyrus' attacks and then got hit during his normal attack and was still at 1 HP afterwards. I think the game just auto-sets you to 1 HP if you should drop to 0.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:55
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I dont see Omega Flowey as a boss 'you cannot die too' but as a boss 'you cannot escape from'
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Nov 15, 2015 19:57
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Tunicate posted:I've heard a rumor the game crashes if you deliberately attempt suicide in papyrus' absoluetly normal attack. I think it's that if you cheat engine yourself to zero, it'll crash, because the acutal fight will not permit it.
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Nov 15, 2015 20:36
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neongrey posted:I think it's that if you cheat engine yourself to zero, it'll crash, because Papyrus will not permit it.
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Nov 15, 2015 21:40
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Nov 15, 2015 21:44
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GunnerJ posted:FFX also wasn't aware of the fact that the player can reload the game in the same way as Undertale. Save points had the "record your journey" conceit, but iirc no NPCs were aware of having killed you, there's no in-narrative term or explanation for this ability, etc. I'm not saying that Undertale is the first game with an un-lose-able final boss, Call of Juarez: Gunslinger did the same thing in having the gameplay framed by an unreliable narrator--to the point that at one point during a high-pressure shootout said narrator gets up to take a whiz and the game slows down, while his listeners discuss just how completely full of poo poo the guy is. Now that I think about it, why the gently caress hasn't Call of Juarez: Gunslinger been LP'd yet. This is a travesty. 
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Nov 15, 2015 23:21
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when suddenly a hundred goddamned Apaches appeared out of nowhere
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Nov 15, 2015 23:21
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Ciaphas posted:when suddenly a hundred goddamned Apaches appeared out of nowhere Hold on, Apaches?
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Nov 15, 2015 23:24
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A Bystander posted:Hold on, Apaches? Not the helicopters.
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Nov 15, 2015 23:26
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senae posted:Not the helicopters. I know absolutely nothing about this game so I'm just imagining a bunch of helicopters flying in until the narrator clarifies, at which point they vanish and are abruptly replaced by people. I'm thinking now that unreliable narration games could make for some very fun level design.
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Nov 15, 2015 23:41
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Bifauxnen posted:I know absolutely nothing about this game so I'm just imagining a bunch of helicopters flying in until the narrator clarifies, at which point they vanish and are abruptly replaced by people. A sizable chunk of the Tiny Tina's Assault on Dragon Keep DLC for Borderlands 2 does that, and it was pretty funny there too. For games where the ability to save and load is recognized as an otherworldly power, the 2003 text game Slouching Towards Bedlam is pretty great. e: better link
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Nov 15, 2015 23:47
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Bifauxnen posted:I know absolutely nothing about this game so I'm just imagining a bunch of helicopters flying in until the narrator clarifies, at which point they vanish and are abruptly replaced by people. It was close. The narrator said that, frustrated at a sleeping listener, who said "Wha wait huh? Wait... apaches?" "No, Steve, but thank you for joining us again. Now as I was saying..." whereupon the apaches (or any you haven't killed anyway) disappear. (edit) And of course in the meantime you have to survive a hundred goddamn apaches so, you know. Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 23:54
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If you wanna see a game with an unreliable narrator, Tales from the Borderlands has two and is being LPed now.
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Nov 16, 2015 00:01
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I just found out about this game a few days ago and have kind of obsessed over it for a while. I gotta echo all the praise of how unique it is and how memorable everybody is.
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Nov 16, 2015 00:54
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Decided to try something out today: The recipe really wanted a circular pan, so there's a bit of extra crust. Ah, well! Waiting around for it to cool now. If we didn't have occasional mice, I'd sneak some into my kids' rooms this evening after bedtime.
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Nov 16, 2015 01:13
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Holding off on snail pie for now? Thanks for the link, I'll have to give that a try. Looks good.
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Nov 16, 2015 02:18
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While we're posting stuff: Papyrus believes in you.
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Nov 16, 2015 02:54
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Valgaav posted:While we're posting stuff: I never thought someone could be vain in a good way until Papyrus came along.
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Nov 16, 2015 03:39
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:I never thought someone could be vain in a good way until Papyrus came along. He's convinced of the goodness of all things, of which he is one! And so are you!!!
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Nov 16, 2015 03:48
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Chard posted:He's convinced of the goodness of all things, of which he is one! And so are you!!! It is with great regret that I must dispute this otherwise obvious fact: ProfessorProf posted:
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Nov 16, 2015 04:55
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A-ACHOO!
Papyrus, how can you stand this cold?
I HAVE NO SKIN.
So why don't we stand in Grillby's instead?
BECAUSE I HATE GREASE.
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One of a very small number of things which Papyrus is actually wrong about, greasy dive bars like Grillby's rule
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Nov 16, 2015 05:16
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 07:23 |
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Next update will be... probably Tuesday morning The thread has been very chill lately, so maybe I won't even have to close it!
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Nov 16, 2015 06:22
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