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Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009

Lottery of Babylon posted:

If he has such good fundamentals then why is doctor who and the space spiders such boring garbage even before the ~moral dilemma~ turns up halfway through?

Also he can't dunk basketballs, so therefore he's worthless.

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Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

DoctorWhat posted:

Because Moffat imposed a "Hinchcliffe it the gently caress up" mandate on it (this is literally true) and that is not a mode Harness is predisposed towards.

And then he produces a two-parter that's even more bloated and meandering, and also manages to take one of Terry Pratchett's best, most succinct lines ("Revolutions always come back 'round. That's why they're called revolutions") and turn it into a bloviating five-minute monologue that had me wandering off to change a light bulb halfway through.

Anyway, going in circles. I'm sure Toxx will say as much in ten lengthy paragraphs at some point in the future.

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?

Oxxidation posted:

Anyway, going in circles. I'm sure Toxx will say as much in ten lengthy paragraphs at some point in the future.

Fairly sure he's instead gonna ramble for twenty paragraphs about the power of Capaldi's acting, actually. :shrug:

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?

Gaz-L posted:

Also he can't dunk basketballs, so therefore he's worthless.

I GET IT

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

DoctorWhat posted:

Strong dialogue, solid pacing in Zygon Inv, good fundamentals.

Disagree, it was almost complete shite even without the political implications.

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.

DoctorWhat posted:

If you wanna see Harness write really goddamn well (although it is an adaptation) watch Johnathan Strange & Mr. Norrel.

I thought Barrowman was busy with Arrow these days?

Dr. Gene Dango MD
May 20, 2010

Fuck them other cats I'm running with my own wolfpack

Keep fronting like youse a thug and get ya dome pushed back

CommonShore posted:

What second doctor reconstructions are worth watching?
The Macra Terror is great, very creepy episode. The Highlanders and The Abominable Snowman are excellent episodes as well.

It really is a shame they're missing, in my opinion it was the greatest period the show has ever seen. But I suppose we're lucky to have what we do. Check out Enemy of the World, it's really something.

cargohills posted:

As a contrast to Burkion, I absolutely despise animated reconstructions. I think you're better off just watching the still image ones.
I'm with you, I appreciate the effort but prefer the telesnaps to animation.

Cliff Racer
Mar 24, 2007

by Lowtax
Some of the animation is okay, like Galaxy 4, which, as far as I can tell, was just moving bits of photographs around to help spice up a telesnap recon. Things where its an animated person's face taking up most of the screen because they didn't know what the background was supposed to look like suck though.

Chairman Mao
Apr 24, 2004

The Chinese Communist Party is the core of leadership of the whole Chinese people. Without this core, the cause of socialism cannot be victorious.

CommonShore posted:

What second doctor reconstructions are worth watching? Last night I wasn't much in the mood to watch reconstructed stories in my "whole series*" run through, so I skipped anything marked "Recon", but then BOOM, I'm at The War Games (which is fun), and then to #3. I was shocked how few second doctor stories are complete. Is it only War Games and Tomb of the Cybermen?

Man, I'm trying to think of ones that aren't worth watching. The Space Pirates is pretty bad I guess.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Chairman Mao posted:

Man, I'm trying to think of ones that aren't worth watching. The Space Pirates is pretty bad I guess.

So's The Wheel in Space

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Short Synopsis: The War Doctor keeps pushing buttons.

Long Synopsis: With the Time War between the Daleks and the Time Lords ended by the death of the War Doctor, the dead War Doctor decides to take a well-deserved holiday. Unfortunately, the Time War (which is now over) finds the War Doctor (who is now dead) on his little getaway paradise and draws him back in, where he finds himself in the very unpleasant situation of arguing against the notion of peace and diplomacy, while the Daleks prove once again that while they're not the most subtle of thinkers, they sure as gently caress know a thing or two about scale and overcompensation.

What's Good:
  • John Hurt & Jacqueline Pearce. Hurt is, of course, the star attraction of the story and deservedly so. He chomps into the role with gusto, returning to a role that technically never should have existed and sliding easily back into character. But Jacqueline Pearce is also great, helped by her relatively low level of "screentime" - that means they take what they have and really make it work, and every scene she is in is obviously important with consequences to come down the road. Her interactions with the War Doctor are excellent, from her seemingly genuine (if harsh) personal remembrance when he's thought dead, to her careful manipulation of a showdown in the knowledge that he'll kick back at the idea of being puppeteered.... and thus do exactly what she wants, to their final conversation where they break down the story, decode each other's actions, and lay out each other's foibles. Pearce could easily have played it one note, but she's not just simply a bad guy doing mean things because she's a villain - she's doing what she genuinely thinks is necessary for the preservation of Gallifrey and victory in the Time War, and she simply refuses to allow morality, kindness or sympathy to get in the way of doing what needs to be done. She explicitly draws the obvious parallel between herself and the War Doctor, which gives him the chance to lay down the fantastic line about the one key difference between them. Hurt gets (obviously) the bulk of the screentime, which means we get to see a good bit of range from him. From the tired old warrior who starts the story, to the energetic scamp who thumbs his nose at the Time Lords after they try to force him on-mission, to the horror of realizing where he is, to the spluttering disbelief when he learns about the diplomatic "cult", to his seething rage and grief when he's forced to make a horrible decision, to the way he collects himself with a sigh and prepares to march on into the uncertain future at the end of the story.... John Hurt is excellent all the way through.

  • The moral conundrum(s). While it might be aping Day of the Doctor just a bit too much, and skimming on the edge of overstating the point, I did enjoy the moral conundrum that the War Doctor ends up facing, and the way the end of the story echoes the beginning. This is all about peace vs war, but also about what cost is acceptable for both and who has to pay the price. At first the War Doctor is very much willing to be the one who pays that price, forcing out two young Gallifreyans chosen for an obvious suicide mission and standing in their stead. Following this, he finds himself on a little planet facing a rather "quaint" invasion and takes it upon himself to create a situation to end the war.... but is adamant that he will not be the one to push the button, that is something the leaders of this planet must do themselves. He almost seems to be goading the pacifist inhabitants, refusing to tell them what he has done or what will happen, making them make that decision without knowing what the true cost will be. It's actually almost a cruel thing, and certainly when the shoe is on the other foot for the War Doctor at the end of the story it is very much painted as a cruel thing. But then much of the first half of the story is about the fact the War Doctor is trying to be cold-hearted, he's trying to be the Warrior the universe apparently needs even though it so clearly goes against his true nature. The solution he forces on the aliens is ultimately a peaceful one, in stark contrast to the death caused by the solution at the end. The story opens with the War Doctor saving others from their "noble" deaths by pushing a button, and it ends with the War Doctor killing others at their behest and giving them a "noble" death that, like the first, saves countless lives. But if the first half is about the War Doctor attempting to cover up the fact he's not the cold, callous monster he feels he needs to be, then the second half is about the War Doctor's horror when he realizes he is arguing against the idea of peace and diplomacy, and mocking those who refuse to let death and despair overwhelm them. The Time War has changed him, and even if he has tried to accept that while clearly still being, at heart, "the Doctor", the realization of just how far he has still fallen is a sobering moment.

  • The structure. The story is divided into three parts, and they work very well as pacing out the story. It starts with a big bang, of course, but then much of the first story is about the War Doctor's convalescence on an idyllic world, being nursed back to health by somebody who would clearly become a companion in any other era of the show. She almost gets that privilege anyway, before the realities of the Time War bear back down and end the hopeful dreams of young girl and old man both. The first part also sets the stage for part two, providing a reason beyond the intellectual to care about what the Daleks and their thralls are doing. That also leads into one hell of a cliffhanger, as the War Doctor learns everything isn't quite what it seems, ending in the Daleks screaming in unison a very familiar Neville Chamberlain quote. So in part three, everything wraps up as it should. It's not entirely a satisfying ending, but the structure has been laid out competently and given plenty of room for the story to breathe.

What's Not:

  • The resolution. As mentioned, the resolution relies on callbacks to both earlier events of this story as well as obvious callforwards to Day of the Doctor. These stories have to eventually get the War Doctor into position to be desperate enough to steal The Moment, but it feels like Big Finish (or Nick Briggs in particular) just couldn't resist the allusion. It runs dangerously close to being overplayed - the fact that so often everything boils down to pushing a button just smacks of ripping off Moffat or at least relying on the emotional weight of that marvelous 50th Anniversary special to carry the listener through this story. The side on the ascendant (for now) sweeps in and cleans everything up with ruthless efficiency, feeling more like Briggs remembered there were a lot of hanging threads to be dealt with once the main plot was resolved and quickly zipped out a couple of paragraphs explanation of,"And then all that stuff got dealt with off-screen!" The Daleks are negated with surprising ease, with a reference to the Path Web feeling more like it's there because they're allowed to use revival-era stuff now so why not shove it in.

  • How conventional it all is. This is the Time War, but while technically there is a lot of weird stuff going on, none of it really comes across as weird. The biggest and strangest things in the story are both actually callbacks to classic Hartnell-era stories - the Time Destructor from The Daleks' Master Plan and a little something originally from The Dalek Invasion of Earth that also popped up in season 4 of the revival. The idea of the Daleks jamming giant engines into planets and blasting them like gigantic bullets directly at Gallifrey is actually kinda perfect in terms of Dalek lack of subtlety - it's just a gigantic, crude weapon that happens to require incredibly complex technology to pull off such a "simple" idea. But the war is fought conventionally, space fleets and infantry battles, proxy species doing the grunt work, races being moved about like pawns by Gallifrey and Skaro both. It's war on a gigantic, mind-bending scale.... but it's nothing particularly odd or off-the-wall, it's just.... war.

  • The sub-baddies. A race of "bad" aliens are discussed but never seen in the first part of the story, then show up in the second and get a larger role in the third. They are, unfortunately, very generic and uninteresting. So the fact their leader is the one who ends up getting to have the big verbal confrontation with the Doctor falls pretty flat. At first there is the barest suggestion in some of the dialogue that things aren't quite as binary as they first appear - that maybe the good, peaceful, isolationist aliens may have done something pretty horrendous in their distant past to earn the undying ire of the bad, warring, expansionist aliens. But nope, when they finally show up they're just straight-up jerks who read like quasi-Klingons.

  • The scene on the lake. It's so bad it stands out on its own. Near the end of the first part of the story, the War Doctor takes a break out on the lake with quasi-companion Rejoice. There she refuses to accept his insistence that he is a terrible person, and in his desperation not to allow himself that notion, he flies into a rage. The whole thing becomes a confusing mess, it sounds for all the world like he is legitimately beating the poo poo out of her while screaming in her face.... but then she jumps into the lake and he appears confused by her actions, and she and he start cracking jokes about how she's decided to swim back to shore. They're absolutely cheerful, with the War Doctor if anything sounding embarrassed to have made such a performance.... but what was he actually doing? Clearly he wasn't beating her up, but was he just.... slapping the wood of the boat? It's an incomprehensible mess, and a rare instance of Big Finish absolutely screwing up their audio.

Final Thoughts:

Only the Monstrous is an enthusiastic effort by Big Finish to tackle the, ahem, monstrous task of portraying the Time War. A concept that is perhaps best served by being left to the imagination of the viewer, the audio format is still certainly far better suited to the attempt than television or even film would be. Where Big Finish delivers is in the places it usually shines - the story sounds great, the actors are giving it their all, the actor playing the Doctor is once again the highlight (I mean it's John Hurt, how could it not be). The exploration of just how far the Doctor has been changed by the war is made evident, especially so in the way he finds himself arguing on the opposite side of characters who are determined to embrace diplomacy and strive all out for peace. But it doesn't allow things to be binary, the pacifists are seeking peace by allowing the cruel subjugation of millions, the hawks are working with the genuine desire to achieve victory for the purposes of peace, and the War Doctor himself is forced to get his own hands dirty as he continually strives to keep himself above the fray. In that final regard though it does repeat character beats we've already seen in The Night of the Doctor and The Day of the Doctor, and by this point in his regeneration the War Doctor should have already faced these harsh truths. But John Hurt makes the material work, and happily Jacqueline Pearce is as good as I'd hoped she'd be - her Cardinal Ollistra is exactly the kind of intelligent, strategic thinker you'd want on your side in a war.... while being absolutely terrified of her and concerned about what the post-war future will bring too. Her interplay with Hurt as the War Doctor is the cherry on top, their snide putdowns of each other, their piercing insights into each other's character, it's all top-notch stuff. In the end the storyline is perhaps a little too "conventional" for a story about the madness of the Time War, though the craziness does ramp up towards the end. This is of course their first time getting to play with these toys, but the promise of the Time War is that we get to see things get weird, not just see war writ large on a scale beyond the normal. In that respect, Big Finish still has some way to go.

Barry Foster
Dec 24, 2007

What is going wrong with that one (face is longer than it should be)
To be honest, I expected nothing more than total conventionality and a slightly irritating amount of references and allusions to ~continuity~ from Briggsy. Maybe the next few sets will allow for some actual weirdness, as you say.

Will probably still pick it up, though, if only to hear more Hurt.

Stabbatical
Sep 15, 2011

And More posted:

Fairly sure he's instead gonna ramble for twenty paragraphs about the power of Capaldi's acting, actually. :shrug:

To be fair he acted the poo poo out of that monologue, regardless of how well written it was.

Mind Loving Owl
Sep 5, 2012

The regeneration is failing! Hooooo...

Stabbatical posted:

To be fair he acted the poo poo out of that monologue, regardless of how well written it was.

Face it, if Capaldi joined the BNP, the UK would have elected a fascist government into power by mid-year, the man can make anything sound at least a little compelling.

Mr Beens
Dec 2, 2006
Screenplays for a bunch of episodes

Smith and Jones:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/writersroom/scripts/doctor_who_3_ep_1.pdf

The Magician's Apprentice:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/writersroom/scripts/DW9-EP1-The-Magicians-Apprentice.pdf

The Witch's Familiar:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/writersroom/scripts/DW9-EP2-The-Witchs-Familiar.pdf

Face The Raven:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/writersroom/scripts/DW9-EP10-Face-the-Raven.pdf

Heaven Sent:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/tv/isite-static/doctorwho/scripts/DW9-EP-11-Heaven-Sent.pdf

Hell Bent:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/tv/isite-static/doctorwho/scripts/DW9-EP-12-Hell-Bent.pdf

Chairman Mao
Apr 24, 2004

The Chinese Communist Party is the core of leadership of the whole Chinese people. Without this core, the cause of socialism cannot be victorious.
I wish Nick Briggs would let people write weird cool stuff for their big projects again instead of getting so excited about getting to carve out a piece of continuity that he just does the whole thing himself. It's marred basically every audio story I've actually been excited to listen to for like a year or more and it's burning me out on the main thing that drew me into doctor who.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Oh snap, I love screenplays, are there any more of these? The screenplay/finished episode comparison is always fascinating to me.

E:

Mind Loving Owl posted:

So, what the Hell was that Time Tot (Timepole?) doing in the middle of the desert? Do the Time Lords just have child sentries stationed across the planet in case the Doctor makes a dramatic entrance?

qntm posted:

Give you fifty-fifty odds the kid was a shepherd's boy.

quote:

A noise makes him turn. Watching him nervously from the
shadows, a little boy. The equivalent of a shepherd’s boy.
He’s staring at the Doctor in astonishment - this man who
came out of nowhere.

E2: it also looks as if "Me" is indeed capitalised in the final line of "Heaven Sent".

qntm fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Dec 20, 2015

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

The screenplay of Hell Bent just calls her Ashildr. For some reason I'm glad about that.

saucerman
Mar 20, 2009

kant posted:

Plus with Capaldi being such a big fan I wouldn't be surprised if he has a checklist of what he needs to accomplish before he's willing to leave. I know my list would include things like piloting a tardis with original console room and being referred to as lord president. I wonder if some stuff like that we're getting is actual fan service or Capaldi service!?

Playing the guitar is probably Capaldi service.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009
It's difficult for me to articulate how great the guitar stuff has been with Capaldi, because it was something which Capaldi brought to the character himself and they worked it in organically. Can you imagine the results if there had been some BBC-level decision that "The Twelfth Doctor needs to be really cool, playing the electric guitar all the time during episodes, like a rock star!" and they specifically cast for that? It feels authentic and timeless in a way which so obviously isn't attempting to cash in on some fad that's external to the show, or appeal to any particular viewer demographic, or imitate any particular real figure.

And this look is so good, and 100% justifies the specs.

Mr Beens
Dec 2, 2006
I hate the guitar stuff. Feels forced along with the sonic sunglasses stuff.

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013

by Fluffdaddy
They're both very modern and novel ways to represent the Doctor's eccentricities, and I think it works well. Capaldi and Coleman's bold, simple costuming worked very well together this year.

Skull Servant
Oct 25, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!
I liked the guitar in everything but the Fisher King intro where it felt super forced.

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Cabinet posted:

I liked the guitar in everything but the Fisher King intro where it felt super forced.

That was one of the highlights of the season for me, but I'm a huge sucker for both shows playing around with their intros and alternate versions of the Doctor Who theme.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009
Yeah, Twelve and his guitar feel right in the same way as Seven and the brolly, and Two and the recorder.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!
Twelve as an aging, burned out rock star just SEEMS right, complete with guitar, sunglasses, and older groupies.

And yeah, the War Doctor box set is fine and worth the pick up. I just think they should have taken a couple of more risks and stepped outside the "comfort zone" of how the Doctor acts. Right now all I'm getting is "Three with even less 'do-I-look-like-I-care.'" Maybe now that they're gotten a lot of people on board with a "safer" introduction the next box set will be a bit riskier.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


I like the guitar thing as a new part of the character Capaldi brings in, because it stops his Doctor from becoming a slavish fanboy tribute to 2-4.

Chairman Mao posted:

I wish Nick Briggs would let people write weird cool stuff for their big projects again instead of getting so excited about getting to carve out a piece of continuity that he just does the whole thing himself. It's marred basically every audio story I've actually been excited to listen to for like a year or more and it's burning me out on the main thing that drew me into doctor who.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
One thing in those screenplays is that the Doctor is clearly surprised and taken aback when he realises he's on Gallifrey, which makes me feel better about my interpretation that he didn't know it was the Time Lords until he got out of the confession dial, and before then his plan had just been to mess up someone's day for costing Clara her life.

Another thing I wondered was, when the Doctor plays Clara's theme at the end it sounds like he starts playing something else, like he's forgetting even the music, and I wondered if that was intentional or if I was just hearing it wrong. There's no mention of it in the screenplay, so I think it wasn't the intention.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Mr Beens posted:

I hate the guitar stuff. Feels forced along with the sonic sunglasses stuff.

Fancy a game of cricket?

ThaGhettoJew posted:

The season on DAVE or whatever (X?) is pretty dang solid, despite general oldness/flabbity. No Kochanski, original style Holly, no smegs given about continuity...

Uh, X didn't have Holly (Norman Lovett's also gone on record saying he probably wouldn't do Red Dwarf again because the producers shafted him a few times when he offered to work on the new series). It was actually pretty solid too, save for some of the episode-long running jokes not being that great.

Tim Burns Effect
Apr 1, 2011



aw gently caress yes i love me some classic who



oh

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Tim Burns Effect posted:



aw gently caress yes i love me some classic who



oh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jspx3tW-Sy8

ThaGhettoJew
Jul 4, 2003

The world is a ghetto

Neddy Seagoon posted:

Uh, X didn't have Holly (Norman Lovett's also gone on record saying he probably wouldn't do Red Dwarf again because the producers shafted him a few times when he offered to work on the new series). It was actually pretty solid too, save for some of the episode-long running jokes not being that great.

My apologies to the thread. I remembered being surprised that it was good back when I watched it and must have aneurysmed him back into the show. RIP in Peace, Hollies.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
Although http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co...ow-25102012.htm

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!
So I use “what's the use of a good quotation if you can't change it?” as my e-mail signature at work to stand out among all the patriotic and pithy sayings.

The new guy just stepped into my office and asked me “dude, who’s Colin Baker? I plugged his name into Google and got tons of pictures of Willy Wonka’s brother in a ridiculous coat.”

I managed to keep my response under two minutes.

FreezingInferno
Jul 15, 2010

THERE.
WILL.
BE.
NO.
BATTLE.
HERE!
Speaking of! I went to the mailbox and saw a suspiciously DVD-feeling parcel waiting for me! I thought "Oh goody! My Doctor Who Secret Santa gift has finally arrived!". Well. Not really, no.



I am 99.9% sure that this isn't from a thread denizen, and instead from a very... practical friend of mine. Mostly because the note attached, instead of reading "Merry Christmas" from a thread poster here, instead simply said "MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!".

Well. I spent last Christmas Eve watching Warriors Of The Deep. This only feels fitting. I'm sure whatever kind gesture I happen to get from the Secret Santa will blow this out of the water. They don't even got a making of documentary on it! I wanted to see people interviewed about why this didn't work! Aww.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."
From Forktoss:





MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Carry On Up The Daleks?

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!
IT'S THE CARDIS.

pinacotheca
Oct 19, 2012

Events cast shadows before them, but the huger shadows creep over us unseen.

FreezingInferno posted:

They don't even got a making of documentary on it! I wanted to see people interviewed about why this didn't work! Aww.

Hey, you could always watch it with the commentary on! It's a good one, but there's specifically a bit where Kevin McNally gently brings up the quality issue with a tactfully deployed "this isn't (polite cough) the most celebrated Doctor Who story ever, is it, Colin?"

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MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
The commentaries are the best bits usually

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