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LibertyCat posted:Sounds reasonable to me? I don't want the average joe having a bit of hard luck to be punished. Trust them that they're looking for work, and don't treat them like an infant. So the part of the economic modelling that says 5% unemployment is the goal means that 1 / 20 people should just lie down in the street and die?
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Mar 6, 2016 10:34
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I didn't say "let's line the long-term unemployed up against a wall and shoot them". I hate to think how many resumes I've gone through while recommending people for roles, and the bottom 5% of jobseekers are truly awful - I wouldn't trust them to cook me a hamburger. If you are unable to contribute to society in a meaningful way I don't see why society owes you anything more than enough food/shelter to stop you starving. If we were all equalish in abilities motivation etc I'd have much more sympathy for the "economics says we'll never achieve 100% employment" argument. We're not.
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Mar 6, 2016 10:42
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Catallaxyfiles is leaking.
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Mar 6, 2016 10:45
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Given there is only finite money to spend on the unemployed, who would you rather see it go to - John the mechanic (unemployed for 4 months because the company he worked for went broke) and friends, or Barry the perpetual screw-up who won't work and has no desire to try? Given the choice I'd rather benefit the 90% of unemployed who aren't deadbeats.
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Mar 6, 2016 10:49
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It looks we can finally take March off life support! I am curious though. As a tax payer I would like to ensure that people living on my coin at least put in a minimal effort while job seeking. Besides tap them financially what does auspol propose we do to people who basically give the bird to the system?
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Mar 6, 2016 10:53
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LibertyCat posted:Given there is only finite money to spend on the unemployed, who would you rather see it go to - John the mechanic (unemployed for 4 months because the company he worked for went broke) and friends, or Barry the perpetual screw-up who won't work and has no desire to try? Given the choice I'd rather benefit the 90% of unemployed who aren't deadbeats. I would rather have the money used to shoot you into the sun 
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Mar 6, 2016 10:54
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LibertyCat posted:Given there is only finite money to spend on the unemployed, who would you rather see it go to - John the mechanic (unemployed for 4 months because the company he worked for went broke) and friends, or Barry the perpetual screw-up who won't work and has no desire to try? Given the choice I'd rather benefit the 90% of unemployed who aren't deadbeats. There is a finite amount of money. So lets take it from the rich and make sure there is enough for the poor to not be so hosed up that the idea of a $55 fine being enough to be a legitimate fear of being homeless.
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Mar 6, 2016 11:00
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April will be amazing
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Mar 6, 2016 11:05
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Can't wait to read Aprils OP about the scourge of untermenschen on our society
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Mar 6, 2016 11:05
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We've automated everything including check-out lines at the supermarket but these long-term unemployed just don't want to work.
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Mar 6, 2016 11:15
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The Whirlpool school of economics.
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Mar 6, 2016 11:18
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Starshark posted:We've automated everything including check-out lines at the supermarket but these long-term unemployed just don't want to work. Now you don't even have to leave your house to shop, or even have to leave to pick it up. It's funny - this is the idealistic utopian fiction predicted by 80s futurists, technology easing life. And it's destroying us.
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Mar 6, 2016 11:20
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Lid posted:Now you don't even have to leave your house to shop, or even have to leave to pick it up. Isnt that because we havnt had the social transition into that futurists lifestyle were people arnt loving starving to pay simple bills
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Mar 6, 2016 11:23
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I was trying to find out how the Finnish basics income trial is going but I can't find anything. You can't embrace the future of automation without also releasing the ideas of a society that must be employed to be worthwhile.
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Mar 6, 2016 11:29
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Michymech posted:Isnt that because we havnt had the social transition into that futurists lifestyle were people arnt loving starving to pay simple bills Hmmmmm.
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Mar 6, 2016 11:33
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Kat Delacour posted:I was trying to find out how the Finnish basics income trial is going but I can't find anything. You can't embrace the future of automation without also releasing the ideas of a society that must be employed to be worthwhile. According to this it looks like the trail has yet to start: http://www.basicincome.org/news/2015/12/finland-basic-income-experiment-what-we-know/ and seems like it will start around when Canada's newly announced trial will later this year. http://www.techinsider.io/ontario-announces-basic-income-plan-2016-3
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Mar 6, 2016 11:37
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Graic Gabtar posted:I am curious though. As a tax payer I would like to ensure that people living on my coin at least put in a minimal effort while job seeking. The dept of Human Services spent around ~$2,800 million on staffing expenses in 2014-2015. Under my proposal a huge amount of bureaucracy (and taxpayer expense) would be slashed. By trusting that most people do the right thing while claiming benefits, you can gut a lot of red-tape enforcers and stop wasting an enormous amount of everyone's time. Sure some people would cheat the system but the looming deadline of "survival only" benefits should spook them, and they couldn't possibly skim more than you'd save on red-tape. Think of it as a limited duration version of Universal Income.
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Mar 6, 2016 11:38
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LibertyCat posted:The long-term unemployed (not counting ill people) are a drain on society and should be treated as such. *ie that long-term unemployed are A)truly idle and not unfortunate, and B) numerous enough to be an actual drain on resources Mr Chips fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Mar 6, 2016 |
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Mar 6, 2016 11:42
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The way technolgy is now, especially the advances in agriculture and automation, I reckon we are only a short half century or so away from automating everything if we want. But we wont want to because money/power/reasons/we grew here you flew here/we are old money where are your bootstraps etc There will always be somone who is horrifed by the idea of an existence where they don't have more then someone else. There will always be someone placing great emphasis on punishing someone they don't percieve as putting enough work in.
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Mar 6, 2016 11:44
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LibertyCat posted:Sounds reasonable to me? I don't want the average joe having a bit of hard luck to be punished. Trust them that they're looking for work, and don't treat them like an infant. Devil's advocate for a second, why exempt ill people? If we accept it's cruel to do this to people who are unable to contribute due to health reasons outside of their control, why not accept it for socioeconomic reasons?
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Mar 6, 2016 11:52
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fickle poofterist posted:The way technolgy is now, especially the advances in agriculture and automation, I reckon we are only a short half century or so away from automating everything if we want. But we wont want to because money/power/reasons/we grew here you flew here/we are old money where are your bootstraps etc Sorry what? So there won't be automation only to 'punish' people, but most here argue current automation will 'punish' people by making many entry level jobs obsolete? If it's a question of status and hard work effort maybe you should ask your local blacksmith what they think.
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Mar 6, 2016 11:54
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Everyone knows that you make the poor work harder by paying them less and the rich work harder by paying them more.
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Mar 6, 2016 11:59
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I don't see any issue with automation itself, and Im sure most here wouldnt either if it meant people werent necessarily punished for struggling to finding what ever scraps of jobs are left over. The problem isn't automation, its the fact that we dont know what the gently caress to do if we arent working and paying tax. I know there are unemployed people out there that aren't even trying to look.for a job, and I dont have any solution for that problem. Out of interest I wonder what percentage of the unemployed choose to be that way. Edit: Why would i ask my local blacksmith (?) what he thinks about it? I said in 50 years I believe we can automate everything. Why would he be against the idea of having his job automated when the idea of money doesnt matter because it isn't a thing anymore? lilbeefer fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Mar 6, 2016 |
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Mar 6, 2016 12:04
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I know there are women out there who keep having kids to get their hands on my tax dollars.
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Mar 6, 2016 12:05
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LibertyCat posted:I didn't say "let's line the long-term unemployed up against a wall and shoot them". Why are they awful? And why is their particular way of being "unable to contribute" different from the disabled? I ask because either we need to expand our definition of disability, scrap disability, or figure out a way to get these people to a point where they can contribute. If we can't either put a person on disability or help them become useful then it's society that has failed, not the individual in question. I also ask because I suffer from severe OCD and was basically unable to function as a normal person for a decade before a doctor was like oh hey you have severe OCD you should definitely be helped with that. The government just handed me a form to fill out for the dole every fortnight and sent me on my way. Funniest thing is I couldn't even manage to hand in the form a lot of the time and I'd go hungry for a while. I still remember rationing out things like tubs of margarine and jars of mayonnaise so I would have at least something to eat every day. At first eating raw margarine by the spoon made me gag, but hunger's great at helping you get over such things. Fun times. Anyway, even though my payments would be cut, nobody was ever like oh huh this guy who is given less than the rate of poverty and has never worked just decides not to get paid periodically, that's weird maybe there's something wrong. Nope, actually helping me seemed like it wasn't really the point of the whole thing. I could have been a functional member of society a literal decade earlier if getting me into the workforce was an actual priority for politicians, rather than figuring out how to punish me for not being in it already.
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Mar 6, 2016 12:19
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Regarding centrelink, I'm currently looking for work but in no real situation to get financial assistance (own a rental property and have a solid amount of savings). Is it worth talking to them to try and find work through any of their channels?
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Mar 6, 2016 12:22
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Do you care what sort of work you get?
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Mar 6, 2016 12:32
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fickle poofterist posted:Do you care what sort of work you get? Absolutely not. Only can't work during the day on Monday or Tuesday. I'm studying prerequisites to get into a masters, and part time study and no job is actually really boring.
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Mar 6, 2016 12:35
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Zenithe posted:Regarding centrelink, I'm currently looking for work but in no real situation to get financial assistance (own a rental property and have a solid amount of savings). Is it worth talking to them to try and find work through any of their channels? It certainly used to be the case that you're eligible for cenny 3 months after you apply if you fail the assets test (more than ~$6K in liquid assets). Might be worth doing it just it case you're still in a lovely situation in 3 months time and don't want to run down your savings anymore.
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Mar 6, 2016 12:38
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Welsper posted:The Whirlpool school of economics. WhirlSchool of economics LibertyCat posted:The dept of Human Services spent around ~$2,800 million on staffing expenses in 2014-2015. Under my proposal a huge amount of bureaucracy (and taxpayer expense) would be slashed. By trusting that most people do the right thing while claiming benefits, you can gut a lot of red-tape enforcers and stop wasting an enormous amount of everyone's time. Sure some people would cheat the system but the looming deadline of "survival only" benefits should spook them, and they couldn't possibly skim more than you'd save on red-tape. So your solution to unemployment is to create even more unemployed?
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Mar 6, 2016 12:42
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Mr Chips posted:Got any numbers to back that up*, or is it just feels? What do numbers have to do with my statement? Conceptually if you take things from society (that others have worked to create) but never give anything back, it's a deficit. If I'd said dole-bludgers were costing us $X per year, we could debate that, but I don't have numbers handy. I don't get why so many here are rushing to the defense of the long-term unemployed. My philosophy has always been to treat people as responsible for their own actions and hold them accountable to that. If you are idiotic enough to feed your life savings into a machine that makes entertaining noises & lights when you press a button, it's your fault, not the casino's for taking advantage of your feeble-mindedness. If you're a taxpayer the long-term unemployed are drinking the coffee you made, driving the car you repaired, dirtying the floor you clean etc without giving society anything back. If you're between jobs they're taking money that could go to you, who actually wants to contribute in a meaningful way.
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Mar 6, 2016 12:45
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Ket posted:WhirlSchool of economics Perhaps business owners could afford to employ more staff if they paid less tax. Perhaps people could afford to buy more things, generating additional demand, if less money got spent on paper-pushers.
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Mar 6, 2016 12:47
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Vladimir Poutine posted:It certainly used to be the case that you're eligible for cenny 3 months after you apply if you fail the assets test (more than ~$6K in liquid assets). Might be worth doing it just it case you're still in a lovely situation in 3 months time and don't want to run down your savings anymore. Does the mutual obligation bullshit apply during the high asset waiting period for someone doing part time study? At the very least get a Health Care Card, there's no waiting period for that.
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Mar 6, 2016 12:48
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I see that LibertyCat is the first to think about slashing the public service. It's not like it's been done before and we've discovered that if you cut enough staff nothing works.
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Mar 6, 2016 12:49
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LibertyCat posted:Perhaps business owners could afford to employ more staff if they paid less tax. Perhaps people could afford to buy more things, generating additional demand, if less money got spent on paper-pushers. Hahahhaa, oh my. Edit: Just to take you seriously for a moment. Gina Reinhart. Was once the richest woman in Australia. Wanted to pay workers less (two dollars an hour). She is not an outlier when it comes to business owners, she is typical in her attitude. If you give business owners more money they will hoard more money.
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Mar 6, 2016 12:49
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Starshark posted:I see that LibertyCat is the first to think about slashing the public service. It's not like it's been done before and we've discovered that if you cut enough staff nothing works. How do you feel about Universal Income?
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Mar 6, 2016 12:50
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LibertyCat posted:What do numbers have to do with my statement? Conceptually if you take things from society (that others have worked to create) but never give anything back, it's a deficit. If I'd said dole-bludgers were costing us $X per year, we could debate that, but I don't have numbers handy. Why are they long-term unemployed and why do you absolve society of all blame and place it entirely on the long-term unemployed individually?
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Mar 6, 2016 12:52
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Zenithe posted:Absolutely not. Only can't work during the day on Monday or Tuesday. I'm studying prerequisites to get into a masters, and part time study and no job is actually really boring. Agreed. Im inbetween jobs (or careers really) and am just doing part time stuff at the moment. It really isnt easy finding jobs, and having a rental + small amount of savings Id be interested to hear an answer about the centrelink thing myself.
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Mar 6, 2016 12:52
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LibertyCat posted:How do you feel about Universal Income? How do you feel about multibullion dollar companys getting billions of hand outs from the govoment while posting massive profits?
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Mar 6, 2016 12:54
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Please don't scare Liberty Cat into not making April thread 
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Mar 6, 2016 12:55
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