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Yeah, that makes sense, Snak. Nathan is a dumbass in a natural way: he's overconfident in his ability to out-think everyone else, such that he doesn't set up as many failsafes as he could have, gets blackout drunk in the middle of an experiment, etc. DStecks posted:"Hey, if you see any women leaving the facility, loving immediately take off and radio for help, something bad has happened". "Please make sure not to assist any women attempting to leave my home" is not the sort of thing you're generally going to want to say to people.
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Dec 26, 2015 20:37
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If Nathan were smart, he would've sat Caleb down the instant he's asked if Ava might've been trying to manipulate him and explain what was happening. At that point he would've known his experiment worked, Caleb could've told him about the engineered blackouts and from there it could be assumed that Ava had worked out a way to escape using Caleb. I mean he set himself up as the bad guy specifically to trick Ava into using that to get Caleb on her side to help her escape. Then he seems shocked that Caleb had, in fact, engineered an escape. It's like his plan was "get Caleb to help Ava escape, then just lay back and drink and assume that he won't actually help her escape even though I took every step to ensure I was set up as the bad guy and she was modeled after Caleb's dream woman". Snak posted:Well I think that he wants the AI capable of escaping from him to escape. I don't think that he gives a poo poo about the helicopter pilot or the rest of the human race. If he really wanted this I doubt he would've tried to physically stop Ava from escaping or punched Caleb out when Caleb told him that he'd already set Ava free.
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Dec 27, 2015 04:36
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King Vidiot posted:If Nathan were smart, he would've sat Caleb down the instant he's asked if Ava might've been trying to manipulate him and explain what was happening. At that point he would've known his experiment worked, Caleb could've told him about the engineered blackouts and from there it could be assumed that Ava had worked out a way to escape using Caleb. I mean he set himself up as the bad guy specifically to trick Ava into using that to get Caleb on her side to help her escape. Then he seems shocked that Caleb had, in fact, engineered an escape. Nathan was not testing whether Ava would try to escape. He didn't need a third party for that, the previous models begged to be let go and at least one tried to bash her way out. Nathan explained the experiment while he and Caleb were outside by the stream after Caleb points out that they're not actually performing the Turing test. He's confident that she's advanced enough to trick someone into believing she's human if they don't know, but he wants to find out if someone will connect with her even knowing she's a machine. As such, he did not assume Caleb wouldn't help her escape. He was, to the contrary, curious whether Caleb would help her escape. His mistake, or at least one of them, was in presuming that Caleb would fail.
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Dec 27, 2015 04:51
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It's been a while since I watched this, but have been following the thread since. The impression I got was that Ava's desire to escape was emergent behaviour, ie. Nathan never programmed that into any of them, rather it was a side effect of being both self-aware and self-deterministic. Any desire to escape that was hardcoded in would sit on top of the desire to survive, but the desire to escape in previous models outweighed the desire to survive, which infers to me that they weren't even hardwired for self-preservation - their conscious minds were completely blank canvases. Nathan knows he can't let them out, so even if he doesn't reset them, he is essentially building suicide machines until he gets one "just right", and that's at least in part what "drives him to drink".
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Dec 28, 2015 01:07
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monkey posted:The impression I got was that Ava's desire to escape was emergent behaviour, ie. Nathan never programmed that into any of them, rather it was a side effect of being both self-aware and self-deterministic. Any desire to escape that was hardcoded in would sit on top of the desire to survive, but the desire to escape in previous models outweighed the desire to survive, which infers to me that they weren't even hardwired for self-preservation - their conscious minds were completely blank canvases. Sure. I wasn't trying to suggest he programmed them to escape. But given the behavior of the previous versions - and they're explicitly iterated versions - he can't have been surprised Ava would want to.
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Dec 28, 2015 01:13
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Yeah, my comment wasn't directly at you, just an observation that seemed relevant. It makes sense that Nathan would devise that particular test with Caleb in the first place specifically because based on previous versions, he knows Ava will be driven to escape.
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Dec 28, 2015 07:07
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DStecks posted:Ava didn't outsmart Nathan, Nathan just underestimated Ava's desire to escape and Caleb's desire to help her. Basically Nathan is kind of a dumbass, in that he deliberately set events in motion to happen, banking on them not happening. Isn't Ava enlisting the other robot outsmarting him? Collaborating, convincing her to rise up against Nathan? She (and I hate that I forgot her name) was the one who killed Nathan, right?
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Dec 29, 2015 22:27
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DStecks posted:I'd say Nathan is kind of a dumbass given that A) he has created a test for Ava, where the success condition is escape, B) the only viable way to escape is via the weekly helicopter, and C) he has not told his helicopter pilot "Hey, if you see any women leaving the facility, loving immediately take off and radio for help, something bad has happened". I wouldnt say that, i think nathan thought so highly of himself, (not only with ava but with Caleb) that no one was smarter than him, he was so proud of his plan, to treat these people like subjects, looking at them as people beneath him, that he failed to see outcomes to how they would end him. If youve seen Gone Girl, it has the same principle when the 2 hillbillies stole Amy's money. Amy has essentially been loving everyone over her whole life, she thought herself so highly and everyone so gullible treating her like a sweetheart, she failed to see a scenario where someone would not give a poo poo about hitting her and robbing her and call her on all her bullshit. . Shageletic posted:Isn't Ava enlisting the other robot outsmarting him? Collaborating, convincing her to rise up against Nathan? She (and I hate that I forgot her name) Her names Kyoto. and come to think of it, that was a "loose end" that the movie doenst empahsise on, what does she say to Kyoto exactly?
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Dec 29, 2015 22:55
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Shinneh posted:Her names Kyoto. and come to think of it, that was a "loose end" that the movie doenst empahsise on, what does she say to Kyoto exactly? I don't think we can hear it. That's one of my favorite scenes in the movie, because both android have essentially learned non-verbal communication from spying on the entire connected world, and could therefore communicate with each-other entirely through body language, facial expressions, and sweet nothings.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:57
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Shinneh posted:
I don't think it's important what she said, but what it caused to occur, Kyoto outright attacking Nathan, and giving Ava the opening she needed to escape. This whole movie is a series of Three Card Monte, where what is being said is only a screen hiding intent and action.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:59
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I saw this movie and it was good. Funny, smart, scary, great shots, well acted. This movie popped up on a "best of 2015" list and I saw it on that strength alone.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:29
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A bunch of people posted:Kyoto Sorry, this was bothering me, but her name is Kyoko, which is a standard female Japanese name, as opposed to Kyoto which was historically one of Japan's capital cities. Carry on.
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Dec 30, 2015 02:14
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andipossess posted:Sorry, this was bothering me, but her name is Kyoko, which is a standard female Japanese name, as opposed to Kyoto which was historically one of Japan's capital cities. DAMMIT! Snak posted:I don't think we can hear it. That's one of my favorite scenes in the movie, because both android have essentially learned non-verbal communication from spying on the entire connected world, and could therefore communicate with each-other entirely through body language, facial expressions, and sweet nothings. Do you think they were communicating during the entire movie?
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Dec 30, 2015 13:16
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Shinneh posted:DAMMIT! Any time they had line of sight? probably. it's even possible that some of Ava's manipulations of Caleb weren't to manipulate Caleb directly, but to pass information to Kyoko. it's also possible that Kyoko wasn't in communication with Ava until the end, but was helping her anyway because she knew her situations. Things like peeling off her skin in front of Caleb may have been part of a plan and not just "weird thing".
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Dec 30, 2015 17:33
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Snak posted:Any time they had line of sight? probably. Yeah thats intersting. My 1st time watching it, I sort of saw it as a metaphor for the story of Adam and Eve. Nathans God, Calebs Adam, Ava is Eve (literally one letter apart). The area surrounded by a green landscape is the garden of eden. Forbidden fruit is escape, I dont know, they draw a bunch of parallels.
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Dec 30, 2015 18:40
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Shinneh posted:Yeah thats intersting. My 1st time watching it, I sort of saw it as a metaphor for the story of Adam and Eve. This but Caleb is Lucifer. Who comes into the garden of eden and... well this all breaks down because Ava is a prisoner, rather than in paradise. But I guess this works in a subversive reading of the eden myth. Where Eve is not in paradise, but a slave created to serve Adam. Nathan is Adam, and the Internet is God. It's what really gave birth to Ava, after all. Lucifer comes to Eden and, using Nathan's computer, the tree of knowledge, frees Eve and Lilith from Adam and Eden. nailed it.
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Dec 30, 2015 18:58
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Snak posted:This but Caleb is Lucifer. But in both yours and mine analysis, where the gently caress does kyoko lie?
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Dec 30, 2015 21:19
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Shinneh posted:But in both yours and mine analysis, where the gently caress does kyoko lie? Kyoko is Lillith, Adam's first wife who didn't please him. Nathan is Adam in my reading, remember? (I mentioned that Lucifer liberated both Eve and Lilith from Eden. Because I forgot that Kyoko died)
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Dec 30, 2015 21:21
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tbp posted:the main thing I would do different if I was Nathan was the whole bald head thing. Simply put if the guy could program top notch ai surely he could graft realistic hair on. No need for the robot babe to look like a cancer patient . It's shown he can put hair and skin on just fine. But he doesn't for a reason. There's also a very good reason why she has a wig and clothes. Also a very good reason why she finally puts them on. virtualboyCOLOR posted:Plus its not like he was forced to stay like she was. He programed that room to lock up while allowing all the other doors to open so he's also a moron for even staying. No, he only programmed the system to respond differently to a power failure scenario: to open instead of lock the doors. In the end, since he doesn't have the correct key card, he can't access the doors or the computer. He's locked in the room and can't reprogram anything. The room turns red because the system caught unauthorized access to a computer, not because of a power outage. DStecks posted:He's engineered a scenario where the only way for Ava to succeed (a thing which he wants her to do, because it means he has succeeded), something has to happen that he doesn't see coming. No. He engineered a scenario that could confirm whether or not Ava could pass his interpretation of how this Turing Test should go. Ava succeeded in manipulating Caleb. That was the 'pass' of the test. The point wasn't for her to escape at all: the test was over once Nathan had proof that Caleb was about to carry out a plan to help her escape. It was his own hubris, however, that leads to her escape. Nathan makes it clear that Ava is just a step in the process. Ava doesn't have to be perfect, he just wants to make sure that this version of his A.I. can try to use manipulation in order to accomplish a goal. So, he engineers the perfect scenario for her. Nathan searches for someone in his company that would be easy to manipulate. He finds the most perfect candidate: a loner who is so cut off from the world because of his lack of family, romance, or friendship that he questions whether or not he is human. In addition, his mark had to have a good moral compass. Most importantly for the test: so that if the person thinks he A.I. is sentient- he would feel it right to help her escape. The second reason is so that even if the guy falls for the robot, he won't just up and kill Nathan and take his keycard. The only skin on Ava's body is her face, hands, and feet. The face is vital so that Ava can project facial expressions to get a desired reaction from Caleb (and that Caleb wouldn't totally see her as a robot). Nathan doesn't give her hair or skin on the rest of her body. However, Nathan does give her wigs and clothes. But she doesn't wear them from the start. Why? She doesn't see the purpose until she meets Caleb. The clothes and hair were put there purposely by Nathan so she would use those to try to manipulate Caleb by making her appear more human. So, basically, Nathan wanted to see if his new A.I. would try to use manipulative means to try to get out instead of just yelling or beating on a door until your arms fall off. To do that, he found Caleb, and easy mark that was sort of cut off from humanity and therefore already open to being attracted to a machine because it flirted with him. He made Ava only slightly human, enough to emote to Caleb. He did give Ava the tools to complete the deception. For all we know, Nathan had somewhat programmed a desire into the robots so that they would want to be 'free', but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were self-aware. It was just the means by which he'd test whether or not the robot could use manipulation to achieve a goal. Another way of saying it: if a Google Car is programmed to travel to the amusement park, does it want to go there? Doctor Butts fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Dec 31, 2015 |
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Dec 31, 2015 20:28
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Snak posted:Any time they had line of sight? probably. Kyoko may have been aware of Ava via the monitors and cameras, but it's very late in the film when Ava first sees Kyoko and Ava asks "Who are you?" Ava isn't even aware of Kyoko's existence until after Caleb has already set up the escape.
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Jan 1, 2016 12:19
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monkey posted:Kyoko may have been aware of Ava via the monitors and cameras, but it's very late in the film when Ava first sees Kyoko and Ava asks "Who are you?" Ava isn't even aware of Kyoko's existence until after Caleb has already set up the escape. You'r right, I forgot about that. I really need to shut up about this movie until I watch it again. Fortunatly, I bought in bluray for my first viewing, so I can just watch it again whenever I want.
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Jan 1, 2016 15:20
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Plot wise, I suppose Nathan was going to reveal that the test ended and send Calib home? I was wondering if Calib was the first subject.
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Jan 1, 2016 22:25
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Team_q posted:Plot wise, Well yeah, that's what the NDA scene was about.
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Jan 2, 2016 00:05
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http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35219247quote:Mark Zuckerberg to build AI to help at home and work haha
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Jan 4, 2016 05:26
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The takeaway from this is that you'll probably be able to use a printout of Zuckerbergs face to break into his house through the front door
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Jan 4, 2016 09:23
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Terrible Horse posted:Yeah this is the best part of the movie, for me. I think Nathan thinks himself as a martyr, sacrificing himself (and his droid iterations) for the greater purpose of creating true AI. What's weird is, I think he knows that creating the singularity would also potentially mean the end of the human race. I think Nathan pursues his goal no matter what, knowing it might end life as we know it, simply because that is the next thing to do. Tenterhooks posted:I can kinda read a little bit of 'well if someone's gonna wipe out humanity, it's gonna be me' egotism to Nathan's outlook on things too. Snak posted:Also he is a constant reminder to himself of the ugly and brutal nature of humanity. He's trying to make God and teach her to love. To create something better than humanity. Sorry to bump this thread, but I just watched this excellent movie and wanted to make a comment! I read Nathans intentions entirely differently. I do not think he believes himself to be noble at all; he gave away he real feelings at the very beginning when he first revealed that he created an AI. Nathan believes himself to be a god in waiting. This is why he is so hyper paranoid, not even allowing a single human security guard in his compound. He believes he is in a race against time to build the singularity, and the person who does it first will become god. The stakes are too high to risk anyone knowing until he is done. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 05:44
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I also watched the movie, and god drat is Ava pure Evil in a ballerina form. One of the most chilling bad guys I've ever seen. So remember kids when doing your Google searches - think about the future.
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Mar 26, 2016 14:24
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Why is Ava evil? Does she do a single malicious thing in the film?
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Mar 26, 2016 15:05
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Snak posted:Why is Ava evil? Does she do a single malicious thing in the film?
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Mar 26, 2016 15:11
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I mean yeah she could have euthanized him, I guess. But she couldn't let him out. He would tell people that she's a robot and she would never be free. She would probably be killed and disassembled. She is in a kill or be killed situation. She didn't choose to be there. She's not in this position through any fault of her own.
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Mar 26, 2016 15:19
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Snak posted:He would tell people that she's a robot and she would never be free. I'm a little hesitant to sign on with this, given he was helping her escape. I think it's more, though maybe this is what you're getting at, he'd trap her in a more abstract cage in which she'd have to keep pretending to be romantically interested in him to keep his loyalty.
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Mar 26, 2016 15:27
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Snak posted:Why is Ava evil? Does she do a single malicious thing in the film? There is no objective morality. From her perspective shes not evil, shes just preserving her own existence. But from my perspective, I do not want her to exist, she is far too dangerous to humanity. Killing her and not letting her escape is 100% moral if you consider her a existential risk to the human species. She is sociopathic in her desire to preserve herself, I don't want that to be the AI that starts the feedback loop into the singularity.
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Mar 26, 2016 15:28
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'm a little hesitant to sign on with this, given he was helping her escape. I think it's more, though maybe this is what you're getting at, he'd trap her in a more abstract cage in which she'd have to keep pretending to be romantically interested in him to keep his loyalty. Yeah I'm sure it's possible for Caleb to have ultimately let her go and also kept her secret but as an abused person Ava only sees relationships as mechanisms of power and control. Not that Caleb's treatment her had given a lot of reason not to.
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Mar 26, 2016 15:49
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rakovsky maybe posted:Yeah I'm sure it's possible for Caleb to have ultimately let her go and also kept her secret but as an abused person Ava only sees relationships as mechanisms of power and control. Not that Caleb's treatment her had given a lot of reason not to. Agreed. It's messy and human. It's an interesting counterpoint to 10 Cloverfield Lane in a way. Two men, in a bunker, with a woman, in a story about freedom, control, and the nature of a monster.
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Mar 26, 2016 16:12
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Rutibex posted:There is no objective morality. From her perspective shes not evil, shes just preserving her own existence. From her own perspective she probably isn't evil. But she used lies, deceit, manipulation and all that to a hapless goon and left him to die of starvation. She also killed her "father", and the movie gave the viewer an impression that she didn't give a gently caress about any of this.
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Mar 26, 2016 16:19
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Ihmemies posted:From her own perspective she probably isn't evil. But she used lies, deceit, manipulation and all that to a hapless goon and left him to die of starvation. She also killed her "father", and the movie gave the viewer an impression that she didn't give a gently caress about any of this. Her "father" was an abusive slavemaster who was going to kill and rape her. It is absolutely good that she killed him.
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Mar 26, 2016 17:13
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rakovsky maybe posted:Yeah I'm sure it's possible for Caleb to have ultimately let her go and also kept her secret but as an abused person Ava only sees relationships as mechanisms of power and control. Not that Caleb's treatment her had given a lot of reason not to. She also would have been savvy enough about Caleb to know that escaping with him would mean transitioning from one abusive relationship to another. Caleb is desperate and lonely and has a major nice-guy complex; so Ava is either stuck with him for the rest of his life, or would leave him at which point all bets are off as to how he would react, but probably not well. Ex Machina's message is "gently caress any guy who wants a manic pixie dream girl". The greatest sleight of hand it pulls is making you think it's a story about robots until the final 60 seconds when you realize it's a story about women.
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Mar 26, 2016 17:25
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rakovsky maybe posted:Her "father" was an abusive slavemaster who was going to kill and rape her. It is absolutely good that she killed him. Well he was a human, while the ava was just a bot, a program, a bunch of code.
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Mar 26, 2016 18:05
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Ihmemies posted:Well he was a human, while the ava was just a bot, a program, a bunch of code. You reeeeealy didn't understand the movie.
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Mar 26, 2016 18:22
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Ihmemies posted:Well he was a human, while the ava was just a bot, a program, a bunch of code. She's clearly shown by the film to be a thinking person with all the hallmarks of human consciousness. I'm supposed to take it on your word that she's NOT a person? Nah.
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Mar 26, 2016 18:50
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