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Arkane posted:There exists inequality in large swaths of the world, including areas dominated by other religions. There has no doubt been terrorism and violence as a result of this inequality. wrong, idiot
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Mar 27, 2016 21:56
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mass shootings don't count as terrorism targeting civilians because
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Mar 27, 2016 21:58
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Cambodia, Rwanda and Zaire are Muslim, what r u talkin about
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Mar 27, 2016 21:59
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I'm pretty sure Nagasaki, Dresden and Hiroshima have strong opinions about whether or not civilians are deliberately targeted thanks to political motivation.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:11
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Arkane just wants to highlight how dangerous Muslims and their evil backwards religion are. He's been at it for years now, bless him. Don't press him too hard on details (he doesn't really know anything), let him make his posts, in his mind he's an online warrior fighting Eurabia.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:16
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People are motivated to cause violence by political Islam, aka Islamism. This calls for state action, similar to when anarchists or Communists were killing people for political purposes. Is that hard to understand? Not all Muslims (by far) are connected to political Islam, but political Islam has made inroads within the religious oikouménē of Islam.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:17
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steinrokkan posted:People are motivated to cause violence by political Islam, aka Islamism. This calls for state action, similar to when anarchists or Communists were killing people for political purposes. Is that hard to understand? I think you're confusing justification for motivation.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:20
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Lotka Volterra posted:I think you're confusing justification for motivation. When Princip shot Franz Ferdinand, was he motivated, or justified by Serbian nationalism? And does it matter?
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Mar 27, 2016 22:22
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Lotka Volterra posted:I think you're confusing justification for motivation.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:25
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steinrokkan posted:When Princip shot Franz Ferdinand, was he motivated, or justified by Serbian nationalism? It's hard to say, likely it was a mix of motivating factors. quote:And does it matter? the trump tutelage posted:Why do you insist on this distinction? Yes, it does matter. A justification is fluid, it can change as the need arises and is ultimately nearly impossible to stamp out. A motivation (or motivations) are important to discern because you can address these, so that ultimately the acts of violence or criminality or whatever else do not occur. Tackling the justification is going to do little to nothing if it isn't also the primary motivating factor. They'll find another justification in time. It's why shouting about Islam or religion being evil is going to do nothing much to the chagrin of internet atheists.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:27
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Lotka Volterra posted:Yes, it does matter. A justification is fluid, it can change as the need arises and is ultimately nearly impossible to stamp out. A motivation (or motivations) are important to discern because you can address these, so that ultimately the acts of violence or criminality or whatever else do not occur. Tackling the justification is going to do little to nothing if it isn't also the primary motivating factor. They'll find another justification in time.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:30
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I'd say it makes the justification MORE important. The motivation is always the same mundane cocktail of dissatisfaction and confusion over one's lot in time. You can condense all these attackers to the same basic condition that is, I think. intelligible to pretty much any human who has ever lived. However, the limited multitude of ideological agents causing this condition to turn into a weapon is what we need to investigate. We can't eradicate the existential crises inherent to our lives, but we can persecute the thought systems trying to abuse them for political gain.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:32
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You underestimate humanity's capacity to justify the most heinous poo poo with the most flimsy of excuses. Eichmann, one of the architects of the Holocaust, was 'just following orders' The situation in which you envisage will never exist. If not religion, it will be something else. If not that, it will be something else yet again.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:37
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GaussianCopula posted:Given that it took Islam not even 50 years for their first major civil war, which arguably is still waged today in Syria and Iraq, I have a hard time agreeing with that statement. It took Christianity about 1000 years for the first major schism. You know gently caress-all about early Christian history.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:39
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I'm still just laughing at someone thinking the IRA didn't claim Catholicism as a justification for its actions
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Mar 27, 2016 22:39
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The Larch posted:You know gently caress-all Here I fixed it
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Mar 27, 2016 22:40
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the trump tutelage posted:Why are you convinced that it is a case of post hoc justification and not motivation? What's your proof? If you want to use ISIS as an example - why didn't this militant organization (or others like it) have a foothold prior to the de-Baathification and disbandment of the military after the Iraq occupation? If the primary motivation is and always has been political Islam, what explains the relative lack (as in, to the current depth and breadth) of widespread Islamist violence before regional destabilization? I could turn your question around: What is your proof that Islamism is the primary motivating factor behind the violence? steinrokkan posted:I'd say it makes the justification MORE important. The motivation is always the same mundane cocktail of dissatisfaction and confusion over one's lot in time. You can condense all these attackers to the same basic condition that is, I think. intelligible to pretty much any human who has ever lived. Anything can be used as justification. Good luck attempting to squash all wrong-thought, as opposed to attempting to tackle the underlying problem.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:40
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lynch_69 posted:Arkane just wants to highlight how dangerous Muslims and their evil backwards religion are. He's been at it for years now, bless him. Yup, Islam is a dangerous, backward religion popularized by a violent madman. And in non-SA-forum reality, tens of thousands of civilians have been purposefully targeted and killed by adherents of Islam in those few years, dwarfing every other world religion combined. And it's not just terrorism that is a problem, Sharia is wholly incompatible with Western society and values. Rules on gays, women, apostasy, and the role of religion flies in the face of a free and open society. This forum is incredibly, incredibly regressive and hypocritical in its excuse making for Islam.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:43
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The Larch posted:You know gently caress-all about early Christian history. Given that he's posting as if he's not aware that the islamic golden age was a thing, he probably knows gently caress all about early middle eastern history as well.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:43
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Ddraig posted:Eichmann, one of the architects of the Holocaust, was 'just following orders' First, you are equating psychological internalization / genuine belief with one's deliberate defence in court. Second, this is a myth, if you actually watch the process, you'll notice that he's making casual remarks about his active participation in the making of Nazi policies, and that he calls himself "a thinking man" when defending himself against the allegation of being just a pawn in the machine. It takes a lot to break man's mental barriers, and it's equally hard to hide one's convictions from the world, and Eichmann is the perfect example of that, showing that flimsy excuses tend to point to substantial problems.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:43
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Lotka Volterra posted:Anything can be used as justification. Good luck attempting to squash all wrong-thought, as opposed to attempting to tackle the underlying problem. The underlying problem is not a problem at all, it's a universal human condition, something everybody goes through, and that, at least according to some strands of phenomenology and existentialism, is a permanent presence in one's cognitive existence once encountered,
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Mar 27, 2016 22:45
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Arkane is right, we should invade the middle East and depose some more national leaders which will put a stop to terrorism imho
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Mar 27, 2016 22:46
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steinrokkan posted:The underlying problem is not a problem at all, it's a universal human condition, something everybody goes through, and that, at least according to some strands of phenomenology and existentialism, is a permanent presence in one's cognitive existence once encountered, And it can't be countered simply by improving material conditions, because the causation is reverse: The mental state of the subject in the state of crisis leads to the shift in evaluating the material world, not the other way arounf, as Heidegger, Patocka, or, say. Sartre would say.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:48
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steinrokkan posted:The underlying problem is not a problem at all, it's a universal human condition, something everybody goes through, and that, at least according to some strands of phenomenology and existentialism, is a permanent presence in one's cognitive existence once encountered, Okay, in the pursuit of a meaningful conversation: what would you say is the reason for the dissatisfaction and confusion, that it would take such an extreme turn? Does the normal condition of being human produce this kind of result, typically?
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Mar 27, 2016 22:48
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Lotka Volterra posted:Okay, in the pursuit of a meaningful conversation: what would you say is the reason for the dissatisfaction and confusion, that it would take such an extreme turn? Does the normal condition of being human produce this kind of result, typically? As I said: It's the ideology that takes the crisis of individual psyche and turns it into an instrument of violence (by presenting a shortcut solution to the problem instead of allowing the individual to go through the complete process of reaching an apothesis). In this case, the ideology is Wahhabism, Islamism or whatever you want to call it.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:50
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steinrokkan posted:As I said: It's the ideology that takes the crisis of individual psyche and turns it into an instrument of violence. In this case, the ideology is Wahhabism, Islamism or whatever you want to call it. So there is nothing else in your mind that could possibly be at fault, aside from a predatory ideology and just normal people having a minor existential crisis? There is no way we could possibly improve conditions that would act as a buffer to extremism, beyond just blowing up Wahhabism, or political Islam?
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Mar 27, 2016 22:52
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Lotka Volterra posted:So there is nothing else in your mind that could possibly be at fault, aside from a predatory ideology and just normal people having a minor existential crisis? There is no way we could possibly improve conditions that would act as a buffer to extremism, beyond just blowing up Wahhabism, or political Islam? We should be seeking to improve living conditions of the lower classes no matter what, but it's dangerous to assume the primacy / determinism of the material over the spiritual, and there's no empirical evidence for it. The wealthy and the comfortable are equally open to intellectual contagions as responses to inner doubts as anybody else. The main reason for improving material conditions is that more people can reach the apothesis, and preach against opportunist ideologies.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:55
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well we could have avoided invading a stable country to deliberately destabilize it on the basis of lies created by warmongers who wanted to make money from military spending
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Mar 27, 2016 22:56
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corn in the bible posted:well we could have avoided invading a stable country to deliberately destabilize it on the basis of lies created by warmongers who wanted to make money from military spending What are you even responding to.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:56
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Lotka Volterra posted:So there is nothing else in your mind that could possibly be at fault, aside from a predatory ideology and just normal people having a minor existential crisis? There is no way we could possibly improve conditions that would act as a buffer to extremism, beyond just blowing up Wahhabism, or political Islam?
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Mar 27, 2016 23:02
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the trump tutelage posted:Can someone explain why ISIS' claim to Islam less valid than anyone else's? Is it because they do bad things and pretending their religion isn't a factor creates less cognitive dissonance? Given that there is no religious hierarchy in islam, no. The solution is clear: reform the religion to resemble Catholicism.
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Mar 27, 2016 23:06
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corn in the bible posted:I'm still just laughing at someone thinking the IRA didn't claim Catholicism as a justification for its actions That's a strange thing to laugh at. Oh well, different strokes!
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Mar 27, 2016 23:09
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My Imaginary GF posted:Given that there is no religious hierarchy in islam, no. Islam is absolutely impossible to reform to have a single authority. Even the caliphs never were comparable to popes. Curiously, the Abbasids had a little transition from Papal States to Vatican in the 13th century, and it meant poo poo.
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Mar 27, 2016 23:10
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steinrokkan posted:Islam is absolutely impossible to reform to have a single authority. Even the caliphs never were comparable to popes. And that's why terrorism exists. Either reform to centralize authority in the hands of an institution which only authorizes violence for its own political benefit, with said benefit being acceptable with American interests, or provide incentives and disencentives which encourage individuals to do so on their own.
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Mar 27, 2016 23:12
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the trump tutelage posted:Okay so the "motivators" are the structural issues that make a person more susceptible to a radicalizing message and "justifications" are how they rationalize their motivations on an individual level. Where do Westerners who live a comparatively cozy existence but nevertheless run off to fight for ISIS factor in to this? Why aren't more ISIS fighters pouring out of Brazil's favelas or Canadian reserves? What's the common thread between Jihadi John and Ayman al-Zawahiri? I think you've answered your own question, here. The westerners who go off to fight have relatively cozy existences and the resources to do so more easily than, say, someone in a reserve or a favela. Additionally, despair tends to manifest in different ways depending on the person or the society. Reservations (at least in the US) face shocking rates of violence and domestic abuse, as well as alcoholism. Ghettos? Manifests as much the same, with gang violence and drug abuse. If the majority of disaffected westerners were going to fight in the Middle East as Islamic crusaders, we would have quite the problem but they're not. They are falling into the prevailing pattern of those who are disenfranchised within their society or community. The fact that we don't have westerners leaving in droves speaks to the regional nature of the issue. It's not an ideology that survives well out of context. steinrokkan posted:We should be seeking to improve living conditions of the lower classes no matter what, but it's dangerous to assume the primacy / determinism of the material over the spiritual, and there's no empirical evidence for it. The wealthy and the comfortable are equally open to intellectual contagions as responses to inner doubts as anybody else. Generally, the problems and doubts we encounter have some sort of root in our material world. Even if the manifestation cannot be entirely placed upon it, we are responding in one way or another to stressors in our environment. While we cannot make all of these things simply disappear, it is worth it to attempt to alleviate these as much as possible before attempting to tackle the problem at an intellectual level. Aves Maria! fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Mar 27, 2016 |
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Mar 27, 2016 23:15
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Lotka Volterra posted:A motivation (or motivations) are important to discern because you can address these, so that ultimately the acts of violence or criminality or whatever else do not occur. The 'motivation' of Islamic extremists is our existence. We're not going to 'address' it. corn in the bible posted:I'm still just laughing at someone thinking the IRA didn't claim Catholicism as a justification for its actions It didn't. Most of it's members/support were Catholic and most of the people it was ostensibly 'fighting for' were Catholic, but that's absolutely not the same thing.
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Mar 27, 2016 23:15
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Nermal posted:The 'motivation' of Islamic extremists is our existence. We're not going to 'address' it. Cool. Good talk.
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Mar 27, 2016 23:17
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Lotka Volterra posted:Generally, the problems and doubts we encounter have some sort of root in our material world. Even if the manifestation cannot be entirely placed upon it, we are responding in one way or another to stressors in our environment. While we cannot make all of these things simply disappear, it is worth it to attempt to alleviate these as much as possible before attempting to tackle problem at an intellectual level. I disagree - existentialist phenomenology is exciting because it dictates that human cognition chooses sovereignly how we feel about a material phenomenon, not the other way around (cognitive functions merely responding to an external factor). Therefore we need a critical approach to politics because material facts don't address our phenomenological reality. You are basically describing behavioralist reasoning, responsile for what this forum likes to call neo-liberalism.
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Mar 27, 2016 23:18
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Lotka Volterra posted:I think you've answered your own question, here. The westerners who go off to fight have relatively cozy existences and the resources to do so more easily than, say, someone in a reserve or a favela. Additionally, despair tends to manifest in different ways depending on the person or the society. Reservations (at least in the US) face shocking rates of violence and domestic abuse, as well as alcoholism. Ghettos? Manifests as much the same, with gang violence and drug abuse. If the majority of disaffected westerners were going to fight in the Middle East as Islamic crusaders, we would have quite the problem but they're not. They are falling into the prevailing pattern of those who are disenfranchised within their society or community. The fact that we don't have westerners leaving in droves speaks to the regional nature of the issue. It's not an ideology that survives well out of context. If you are disenfranchised within your community, or see a need within your community, organize an appropriate organization in order to address the social maladies you see. You don't loving go off and murder folk. That is never acceptable, and anyone who does so should have a family facing severe ostrication for being such poor influences and role models.
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Mar 27, 2016 23:24
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Lotka Volterra posted:I think you've answered your own question, here. The westerners who go off to fight have relatively cozy existences and the resources to do so more easily than, say, someone in a reserve or a favela. Additionally, despair tends to manifest in different ways depending on the person or the society. Reservations (at least in the US) face shocking rates of violence and domestic abuse, as well as alcoholism. Ghettos? Manifests as much the same, with gang violence and drug abuse. If the majority of disaffected westerners were going to fight in the Middle East as Islamic crusaders, we would have quite the problem but they're not. They are falling into the prevailing pattern of those who are disenfranchised within their society or community. The fact that we don't have westerners leaving in droves speaks to the regional nature of the issue. It's not an ideology that survives well out of context.e cannot make all of these things simply disappear, i Absolutely! In absence of Islamism, the Western fighters would revert to common expressions of dissatisfaction! Therefore we need to focus on the ideology that shapes their response in addition to trying to address the condition that made their response possible.
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Mar 27, 2016 23:28
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