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In the four days since the attack in Belgium, a suicide bomber blew himself up at a soccer game in Iraq killing 30+ people, and earlier today a suicide bomber blew up Christians celebrating Easter in Pakistan, killing 60+ people, mostly women and children. Including those three attacks, there have been 26 attacks spread across 12 countries in the first 87 days of 2016 where 20 or more civilians have been killed. All 26 attacks were perpetrated by adherents to Islam. The specific groups differ, but the methods of targeting innocent people is the same. That number does not include the dozens of attacks where less than 20 people have been killed, or the unsuccessful attacks where Islamists failed to kill large numbers of civilians as intended.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:20
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Arkane posted:Including those three attacks, there have been 26 attacks spread across 12 countries in the first 87 days of 2016 where 20 or more civilians have been killed. All 26 attacks were perpetrated by adherents to Islam. The two Ankara suicide bombings were performed by TAK who are a militant nationalist group whos motivation is not at all religious
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Mar 27, 2016 19:23
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MattD1zzl3 posted:I always had the idea that the source of a lot of militant/violent rules in islam vs Christianity came from who wrote the book. Its easy to be a pacifist when you're a homeless jewish preacher, its harder when you are the leader of a faction in a civil war and religious revolution. A lot of that period in arab-peninsula history carries over into the religion, does it not? I highly doubt you can be proven wrong on this one, given that Christianity was for the first ~200 years the religion of oppressed people while Islam was the religion of an Arabian Warlord, who experienced his first success when he made this religion more militant.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:31
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GaussianCopula posted:I highly doubt you can be proven wrong on this one, given that Christianity was for the first ~200 years the religion of oppressed people while Islam was the religion of an Arabian Warlord, who experienced his first success when he made this religion more militant. Raiding: hard coded into Islam's very nature!
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Mar 27, 2016 19:32
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MattD1zzl3 posted:I always had the idea that the source of a lot of militant/violent rules in islam vs Christianity came from who wrote the book. Its easy to be a pacifist when you're a homeless jewish preacher, its harder when you are the leader of a faction in a civil war and religious revolution. A lot of that period in arab-peninsula history carries over into the religion, does it not? Jesus and his followers also believed, at least as far as we can tell, that the end days were fast approaching. It's easy to turn the other cheek and forgive your enemy when you're certain that fiery rear end-rape of the highest order was going to be inflicted on all and sundry any second now.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:33
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SedanChair posted:Raiding: hard coded into Islam's very nature!
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Mar 27, 2016 19:36
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the trump tutelage posted:Is this supposed to invalidate my question? Agreed therefore we should have cops patrol all Catholic neighborhoods and waterboard the pope
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Mar 27, 2016 19:40
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SedanChair posted:Raiding: hard coded into Islam's very nature! I'm not sure that statement is wrong, but as you can see in the Christian Crusades and Conquests, a religion does not always have to be practiced according to the original text and it's original meaning.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:43
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I think if we just invade even more Middle Eastern countries this time they'll welcome us with open arms
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Mar 27, 2016 19:45
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corn in the bible posted:Agreed therefore we should have cops patrol all Catholic neighborhoods and waterboard the pope
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Mar 27, 2016 19:48
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kustomkarkommando posted:The two Ankara suicide bombings were performed by TAK who are a militant nationalist group whos motivation is not at all religious In attacks across different countries, the political motivations & grievances are varied. Christians are not killed in Pakistan for the same reason that a market is blown up in Nigeria; vacationers at a hotel in the Ivory Coast are not gunned down for the same reason that the Kurds are blowing up people in Turkey. The uniting string is a religious justification for targeting civilians that these militants find within Islam. Which is why we see these attacks over and over again, in different parts of the world, undertaken by different groups, of Muslims targeting civilians en masse.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:48
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Arkane posted:In attacks across different countries, the political motivations & grievances are varied. Christians are not killed in Pakistan for the same reason that a market is blown up in Nigeria; vacationers at a hotel in the Ivory Coast are not gunned down for the same reason that the Kurds are blowing up people in Turkey. Except TAK does not use religious language or religious justifications in any of it's propaganda and is a splinter faction of an organization which conducted a violent multi-year feud with Islamists who are routinely condemned as atheists by religious Muslims
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Mar 27, 2016 19:50
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Arkane do you just not know that there's terrorists of every religion and that terrorism is based in a political and economic praxis of inequality you stupid loving oval office
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Mar 27, 2016 19:52
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corn in the bible posted:Arkane do you just not know that there's terrorists of every religion and that terrorism is based in a political and economic praxis of inequality you stupid loving oval office Nice meltdown against the strawman.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:53
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kustomkarkommando posted:Except TAK does not use religious language or religious justifications in any of it's propaganda and is a splinter faction of an organization which conducted a violent multi-year feud with Islamists who are routinely condemned as atheists by religious Muslims Not to mention that Turkey is overwhelmingly Muslim, and there is no religious justification for killing innocent Muslims, no matter how dark ages the lens you look at Islam through is.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:56
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It does say something about the web of Islamism that we've had three separate major Jihadi attacks in three different parts of the world in the course of a week.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:59
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Volkerball posted:Not to mention that Turkey is overwhelmingly Muslim, and there is no religious justification for killing innocent Muslims, no matter how dark ages the lens you look at Islam through is. Gotta break some eggs if ya want to make an omelette 
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Mar 27, 2016 19:59
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Volkerball posted:Not to mention that Turkey is overwhelmingly Muslim, and there is no religious justification for killing innocent Muslims, no matter how dark ages the lens you look at Islam through is. The secret is redefining innocence as required.
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Mar 27, 2016 20:03
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Volkerball posted:Not to mention that Turkey is overwhelmingly Muslim, and there is no religious justification for killing innocent Muslims, no matter how dark ages the lens you look at Islam through is. Given that it took Islam not even 50 years for their first major civil war, which arguably is still waged today in Syria and Iraq, I have a hard time agreeing with that statement. It took Christianity about 1000 years for the first major schism.
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Mar 27, 2016 20:06
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kustomkarkommando posted:Except TAK does not use religious language or religious justifications in any of it's propaganda and is a splinter faction of an organization which conducted a violent multi-year feud with Islamists who are routinely condemned as atheists by religious Muslims Unless the person hit the wrong target, the fact remains that they convinced someone to commit suicide and take out as many civilians as possible. It seems all but certain religion played a role in justifying this suicide and civilian attack. corn in the bible posted:Arkane do you just not know that there's terrorists of every religion and that terrorism is based in a political and economic praxis of inequality you stupid loving oval office There exists inequality in large swaths of the world, including areas dominated by other religions. There has no doubt been terrorism and violence as a result of this inequality. But you see very little targeting of civilians to exact massive casualties in any of these regions except those dominated by the religion of Islam. And these attacks from Muslims have become commonplace now. Hope that helps. Putting you on ignore now, see ya later man. Arkane fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Mar 27, 2016 |
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Mar 27, 2016 20:13
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the trump tutelage posted:ISIS disagrees. It's not really a matter of ISIS having an opinion on the matter, and others having an opinion on the matter, and since it's all opinion, no one is "right." When you get into that area, ISIS' justifications for things are more like excuses to justify something they were going to do anyways, rather than an interpretation that they think forces them to do it. Islam is a tool for them in that way. Some things they can't even find justifications for, so they just lie about it. For example, the treatment of Muslims in their court systems. People are extorted, ransomed, tortured, and executed and they generally just deny that type of thing as western propaganda. My favorite story was where they were going to execute a man as "kuffar" because he didn't pay ransom, and they offered him a last meal. He refused it because he was fasting. They executed him anyways. A person in prison at the time said he heard guards talking about how they believed the man had really been an ideologically correct Muslim and they were kind of laughing about it. That's why it's always a struggle to get a grasp on ISIS' ideology. At some point, there's a line where Islam ends and the cartel begins, and that's a blurry area.
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Mar 27, 2016 20:13
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GaussianCopula posted:I highly doubt you can be proven wrong on this one, given that Christianity was for the first ~200 years the religion of oppressed people while Islam was the religion of an Arabian Warlord, who experienced his first success when he made this religion more militant. This actually touches on the thing I mentioned a bit ago - Jesus' teachings (let's ignore Paul for a sec) don't deal especially heavily with how to actually run a society. That's a plot point in Christian theology on a zillion different levels - perfection is impossible if you ain't Jesus, but that's fine, because Jesus. But try hard to do impossible things anyway. Mohammed seems to have had on his mind A) How do I make Arabian society more enlgihtened? and B) How do I create a reasonably pleasant, stable society in general that hopefully won't tear apart at the seams a century from now? (I like to think this was the practical reason for the Seal of the Prophets - nobody else, ever, can come along and say "God told me this, you gotta obey" - it all has to be done within the existing paradigm and human reason.) Unfortunately, this also means that while Islam was Pretty Ahead Of The Times for many many centuries, there are also extra obstacles to changing the paradigm now that the world is changing so much faster than it did for pretty much all of human history. Dang if there aren't some cool people doing their best to make it work, though. (And some terrible ones trying to reiterate the very worst aspects of the Arab society Mohammed worked within, and come up with new and exciting ways to be barbaric and awful.)
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Mar 27, 2016 20:16
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Arkane posted:Unless the person hit the wrong target, the fact remains that they convinced someone to commit suicide and take out as many civilians as possible. It seems all but certain religion played a role in justifying this suicide and civilian attack. They attacked tourists to send a signal that they are at war with anyone who supports Turkey. To them, tourists are part of the problem. That's their justification. You're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la can't hear you la la la islam is responsible for everything bad" now.
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Mar 27, 2016 20:21
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Arkane posted:Unless the person hit the wrong target, the fact remains that they convinced someone to commit suicide and take out as many civilians as possible. It seems all but certain religion played a role in justifying this suicide and civilian attack. Why do you think this, do you think nationalism lacks the ideological appeal for individuals to willing become martyrs for their cause
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Mar 27, 2016 20:24
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kustomkarkommando posted:Why do you think this, do you think nationalism lacks the ideological appeal for individuals to willing become martyrs for their cause It's just so 20th century 
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Mar 27, 2016 20:26
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kustomkarkommando posted:Why do you think this, do you think nationalism lacks the ideological appeal for individuals to willing become martyrs for their cause It's way too Euro-centric to assume that nationalism carries that much weight outside a couple of Western countries. While the abstract functions of the political systems represented by European nationalism and Islamism may be the same, the agents figuring in the system, their formal aspects and legitimization arguments are different.
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Mar 27, 2016 20:30
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kustomkarkommando posted:Why do you think this, do you think nationalism lacks the ideological appeal for individuals to willing become martyrs for their cause Let me tell you about these Japanese pilots...
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Mar 27, 2016 20:30
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steinrokkan posted:It's way too Euro-centric to assume that nationalism carries that much weight outside a couple of Western countries. While the abstract functions of the political systems represented by European nationalism and Islamism may be the same, the agents figuring in the system, their formal aspects and legitimization arguments are different. We are talking about Turkey, specifically a nationalist group in Turkey who justify suicide bombing as glorious sacrifice for the national struggle. Looking at that and going "well clearly religious arguments where used to justify this" is weird.
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Mar 27, 2016 20:32
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steinrokkan posted:It's way too Euro-centric to assume that nationalism carries that much weight outside a couple of Western countries. While the abstract functions of the political systems represented by European nationalism and Islamism may be the same, the agents figuring in the system, their formal aspects and legitimization arguments are different. Uh nationalism has played a massive role in the Middle East for over a century. That whole pan-arabism thing did a lot to shape the region today. The Kurds are no exception to this, and Kurdish nationalists are some of the most nationalist people you'll ever talk to. And you'll pretty much never hear them say anything about Islam, even though they are largely Sunni muslim. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Mar 27, 2016 |
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Mar 27, 2016 20:34
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Volkerball posted:Uh nationalism has played a massive role in the Middle East for over a century. That whole pan-arabism thing did a lot to shape the region today. The Kurds are no exception to this, and Kurdish nationalists are some of the most nationalist people you'll ever talk to. And you'll pretty much never hear them say anything about Islam, even though they are largely Sunni muslim. Arab nationalism has been defeated 
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Mar 27, 2016 20:37
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Volkerball posted:It's not really a matter of ISIS having an opinion on the matter, and others having an opinion on the matter, and since it's all opinion, no one is "right." When you get into that area, ISIS' justifications for things are more like excuses to justify something they were going to do anyways, rather than an interpretation that they think forces them to do it. However, I disagree with your assertion that someone is "right". There is no Platonic Islam that ISIS is defiling. unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Mar 27, 2016 |
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Mar 27, 2016 20:46
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Volkerball posted:They attacked tourists to send a signal that they are at war with anyone who supports Turkey. To them, tourists are part of the problem. That's their justification. You're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la can't hear you la la la islam is responsible for everything bad" now. Considering that this is the context: quote:Including those three attacks, there have been 26 attacks spread across 12 countries in the first 87 days of 2016 where 20 or more civilians have been killed. All 26 attacks were perpetrated by adherents to Islam. The specific groups differ, but the methods of targeting innocent people is the same. Which one of us is sticking our fingers in our ears and pretending religion isn't a factor? kustomkarkommando posted:Why do you think this, do you think nationalism lacks the ideological appeal for individuals to willing become martyrs for their cause Given the large number of suicide attacks, and geographic spread of suicide attacks, over the past few years, I think the hurdle to climb over to prove that "someone blowing up civilians = solely due to nationalism" is your hurdle. Were her last words the Takbir, did she silently pray? Neither of us know that. Which is why the context of this type of civilian attack is so important. When you have so many attacks against civilians all coming from adherents to the same religion, making assumptions about an individual attack to try to undermine the point seems like a masturbatory, ridiculous exercise that completely misses the point.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:00
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Mohammed seems to have had on his mind A) How do I make Arabian society more enlgihtened? and B) How do I create a reasonably pleasant, stable society in general that hopefully won't tear apart at the seams a century from now? (I like to think this was the practical reason for the Seal of the Prophets - nobody else, ever, can come along and say "God told me this, you gotta obey" - it all has to be done within the existing paradigm and human reason.) This is delusional. The Mohammed that preached pleasant platitudes on the streets of Mecca is not the same Mohammed that forged Islamic law when he had an army at his back. The transition from a beneficent looney toon of the garden variety to a power-hungry, paranoid madman did not work out too well for people around him or those that he encountered.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:11
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Arkane posted:Given the large number of suicide attacks, and geographic spread of suicide attacks, over the past few years, I think the hurdle to climb over to prove that "someone blowing up civilians = solely due to nationalism" is your hurdle. Were her last words the Takbir, did she silently pray? Neither of us know that. Which is why the context of this type of civilian attack is so important. Turkey has also seen suicide attacks from the explicitly atheist Marxist-Leninist DHKP-C, do you believe they silently prayed before blowing themselves up? You are ignoring the ideological motivation behind a series of specific attacks by a specific group for reasons I do not understand. You are the one making assumptions about the motivations behind an attack in order to make a point kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Mar 27, 2016 |
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Mar 27, 2016 21:11
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corn in the bible posted:you're all a bunch of stupid bitches corn in the bible posted:can anyone explain why the ira's claim to catholicism less valid than anyone else They didn't claim to be catholic. Maybe the stupid bitch... is you?
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Mar 27, 2016 21:14
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Also irish catholics are opressed "minorities" (ha) of the "enslaved and exploited" variety until reletively recently not the "ancient wars and assimilation" type. Their nationalist struggle (horrible though it was) is a little more sympathetic than "the west is incompatible with my rules"
MattD1zzl3 fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Mar 27, 2016 |
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Mar 27, 2016 21:23
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kustomkarkommando posted:Turkey has also seen suicide attacks from the explicitly atheist Marxist-Leninist DHKP-C, do you believe they silently prayed before blowing themselves up? Okay, and in the context of civilians being targeted and killed, where does this group lie? A 30 second perusal of their history indicates 0 attacks where civilians were targeted, but perhaps I missed one. Let's not veer off topic, man. kustomkarkommando posted:You are ignoring the ideological motivation behind a series of specific attacks by a specific group for reasons I do not understand. I've made no claims on motivations, none. In fact, I agreed with you when you said that the motivations were not religious. What I am discussing is the justification for killing innocent people, in the service of whatever the given groups political motivations are. Let's just clear up your position on the justifications: when I post that there have been 26 attacks on civilians which have killed 20 or more people this year, and all 26 attacks had Muslim perpetrators, do you think this is a coincidence or not a coincidence? If we want to go further back in time over the past few years, across hundreds of attacks killing tens of thousands of people, it's going to be over 9 out of 10 attacks of this nature that had Muslim perpetrators. Does this imply or not imply to you that these attackers are justifying the killing of civilians with religion? Notwithstanding the fact that they frequently tell us this.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:28
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Arkane posted:I've made no claims on motivations, none. In fact, I agreed with you when you said that the motivations were not religious. What I am discussing is the justification for killing innocent people, in the service of whatever the given groups political motivations are. How this is separate from the political motivations driving an attack which will most likely resolve in civilian casualties? quote:Let's just clear up your position on the justifications: when I post that there have been 26 attacks on civilians which have killed 20 or more people this year, and all 26 attacks had Muslim perpetrators, do you think this is a coincidence or not a coincidence? If we want to go further back in time over the past few years, across hundreds of attacks killing tens of thousands of people, it's going to be over 9 out of 10 attacks of this nature that had Muslim perpetrators. Does this imply or not imply to you that these attackers are justifying the killing of civilians with religion? Notwithstanding the fact that they frequently tell us this. I do not think the deliberate killing of civilians is unique to Muslims no as a basic survey of any conflict in the last few years will show you. Civilians deliberately targeted and killed in South Sudan etc.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:42
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The idea that the killing of civilians must require a religious justification as a political justification can not be strong enough is a bizarre statement
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Mar 27, 2016 21:45
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Why can't the religious justification be THE political justification, the point of salafia is that it's a political interpretation of Islam.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:47
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