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TK-42-1 posted:It's probably a R'hllor vs Great Other vision. If the White Walkers don't attack the wall this season then gently caress this gay earth. 
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Mar 27, 2016 20:30
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 What do you guys think? I'm strangely compelled by this theory.
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Mar 28, 2016 00:58
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Just got finished marathoning the audio commentaries for season five and it's kind of ridiculous how much they don't make a fuss over it being Jon Snow's "last season." I mean in comparison, they got Michelle Fairly and Richard Madden in to commentate on the Red Wedding episode and both of them sounded close to tears by the end, talking about how much they'd miss the cast and crew and experience in general. Rose Leslie and Kit Harington did commentary on Ygritte's last episode and had a very sweet few moments of saying goodbye to her and her saying how much she loved being part of it. In comparison, Kit doesn't even commentate on his last episode in season five, but on Hardhome instead. He only mentions being killed off in the finale in an offhanded way, no one really continues from there, and no one says any kind of goodbye to him when it's over. D&D do the commentary on the actual finale (along with Lena Heady) and follow up the scene with the most obnoxious, heavy handed, "YEP, HE SURE IS DEAD ALRIGHT, did we mention we almost called the episode Dead Snow lololol" nonsense. I mean it's not like everyone here wasn't fully expecting him to return, but I'm still surprised at the complete lack of effort that went into continuing the ruse in the commentaries. Bryan Cogman also goes into a long rant about That Sansa Scene in Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken that's... I'm really not sure. He alternates between being cognizant of how jarring it was and how often it's used as a cheap plot device and how he doesn't want to downplay the seriousness of assault - and then talks about how important it will be for her character arc and will only make her stronger in the end! So, uh. Yeah. Also strange, but this is the first season where GRRM doesn't do any commentaries.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:00
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TOOT BOOT posted:
Interesting but I doubt Qyburn has the motivation or balls to troll Cersei that hard
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Mar 28, 2016 01:53
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Did they make a thing of taking Gregory's head off in the show? I can't remember.
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Mar 28, 2016 02:00
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TK-42-1 posted:Did they make a thing of taking Gregory's head off in the show? I can't remember. No, Gregor's still alive the last time we see him.
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Mar 28, 2016 02:11
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computer parts posted:No, Gregor's still alive the last time we see him. Oberyn's spear was poisoned.
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Mar 28, 2016 02:24
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Feral posted:
He decided a couple years ago that he would stop being directly involved with the show to focus more on writing. lol
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Mar 28, 2016 03:07
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TOOT BOOT posted:Oberyn's spear was poisoned. By the same stuff that was used to murder Joffrey and Myrcella, Tears of Lys.
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Mar 28, 2016 05:11
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:By the same stuff that was used to murder Joffrey and Myrcella, Tears of Lys. I thought Joffrey was killed with the Strangler. It doesn't make sense for it to be the same poison that killed the Mountain. Joffrey dies in minutes after ingesting the poison and the Mountain screams in agony for days because of whatever Oberyn used, which is the reason he used it.
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Mar 28, 2016 05:16
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Joffrey is killed with the strangler. The Mountain is poisoned with diluted manitcore venom (to drag out his dying agony). Jon Arryn is killed with the Tears of Lys.
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Mar 28, 2016 05:25
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Tywin was also poisoned (books, not show) which is one of those cool little background things the Gurm put in. He was going to die even before Tyrion killed him, which I suppose makes Tyrion's actions even more tragic in a way. It's actually really fortunate for Doran that Tyrion does kill Tywin because otherwise it's a guaranteed war between Dorne and Lannisters. e: Though I suppose it would have been possible that if Tyrion had escaped and not killed Tywin they'd have just pinned Tywin's poisoning on him as well. Cersei certainly would have tried to although the rest of them would have likely suspected Oberyn.
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Mar 28, 2016 06:06
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Ginette Reno posted:Tywin was also poisoned (books, not show) which is one of those cool little background things the Gurm put in. He was going to die even before Tyrion killed him, which I suppose makes Tyrion's actions even more tragic in a way. It's actually really fortunate for Doran that Tyrion does kill Tywin because otherwise it's a guaranteed war between Dorne and Lannisters. Interesting, I don't remember this. Where was it implied that Tywin was poisoned?
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Mar 28, 2016 10:09
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Azazell0 posted:Interesting, I don't remember this. Where was it implied that Tywin was poisoned? http://boiledleather.com/post/24196234491/tywin-lannister-dead-man-making GBS threads It's reasonably convincing, as I think it's the only decent explanation for why Tywin's body rots so quickly and horribly in a way that nobody else's does.
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Mar 28, 2016 10:19
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GRRM's sperging boy Elio Garcia made a comment about how the tywin-was-poisoned theory was incorrect but the comment itself was very smug and lacking any sort of detail so many people tend to not view it as conclusive evidence.
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Mar 28, 2016 10:56
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Seems like someone who may have been poisoned several times over the years. Probably just has a good poo poo.
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Mar 28, 2016 16:52
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"Oberyn poisons Tywin" is something I'm reasonably sure GRRM didn't put in on purpose but there's enough incidental evidence that its a sort of emergent story itself. I think its really cool and I'm glad people have pointed it out. I'm sure we'll never get a confirmation one way or the other, and even if GRRM were to repudiate it I wouldn't care. Now personally, I want proof of "Roose Bolton is a 10,000 year old monster that steal his children's skins."
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Mar 28, 2016 23:40
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Mike N Eich posted:"Oberyn poisons Tywin" is something I'm reasonably sure GRRM didn't put in on purpose but there's enough incidental evidence that its a sort of emergent story itself. I think its really cool and I'm glad people have pointed it out. I'm sure we'll never get a confirmation one way or the other, and even if GRRM were to repudiate it I wouldn't care. It just fits too well for me to think GRMM didn't intentionally do it. It would be weird for the corpse to just putrefy like that without a reason behind it and I don't buy that GRMM would do that just to stress the theme of the Lannister house falling apart.
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Mar 29, 2016 01:08
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Bolt-on being real would be super sweet, I'll second that.
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Mar 29, 2016 02:22
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Watched the audio commentaries for Season 5. Unless I missed something, that report that said that the commentaries confirm that GRRM told David and Dan that Stannis will burn Shireen in the books was incorrect. Iain Glen, Peter Dinklage, and David Nutter (the director of the episode) are on the commentary track for episode 9. During the burning scene, Iain asks if he's right in thinking George told David and Dan that Shireen is burned in a future book. David Nutter doesn't know and neither does Peter and they both just say that they know David and Dan are in contact with GRRM. Iain says he's pretty sure he's right and says that, in response to the backlash over the scene, GRRM came out subsequently stated that it does happen (which isn't true; in fact, he basically did the opposite and refused to comment on what the show portrayed and merely reiterated how things stood at the end of ADWD). Meanwhile, David and Dan are on the commentary for episode 10 and they don't say anything about GRRM or his plans the future books during the entirety of Stannis' final scenes. The question over Stannis' involvement in Shireen's sacrifice in the books - if any - remains open.
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Mar 29, 2016 02:23
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David and Dan say it in the "behind the episode" video for that episode.
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Mar 29, 2016 02:26
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Beeez posted:David and Dan say it in the "behind the episode" video for that episode. They say that GRRM told them that Shireen is sacrificed, not that Stannis does it.
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Mar 29, 2016 02:27
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It's been a while since I've seen it so maybe you're right. But Stannis' whole arc seems to be leading to him burning Shireen for the greater good(once he's fully convinced he is Azor Ahai), so I bet he will do it. It'll just be for different reasons than in the show, and his subsequent downfall will be less abrupt.
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Mar 29, 2016 02:56
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Beeez posted:It's been a while since I've seen it so maybe you're right. But Stannis' whole arc seems to be leading to him burning Shireen for the greater good(once he's fully convinced he is Azor Ahai), so I bet he will do it. It'll just be for different reasons than in the show, and his subsequent downfall will be less abrupt. It makes more sense for Mel to burn her in order to help Stannis but it just raises Jon instead.
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Mar 29, 2016 03:31
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The show seems to whitewash the main characters a little more so I wouldn't be surprised if she's killed to bring back Jon in the books. Only death can pay for life and all that.
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Mar 29, 2016 03:36
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computer parts posted:It makes more sense for Mel to burn her in order to help Stannis but it just raises Jon instead. Not thematically or character-wise.
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Mar 29, 2016 03:43
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Ginette Reno posted:It just fits too well for me to think GRMM didn't intentionally do it. It would be weird for the corpse to just putrefy like that without a reason behind it and I don't buy that GRMM would do that just to stress the theme of the Lannister house falling apart. IMO it is a good theory, but personally I don't buy it. Mainly because if Tywin was near death from the effects of the potion as implied by his gruesome putrefaction, he should have started developing some symptoms, such as fever from infections, jaundice, dehydratation, or swelling (I know that it's magical plot venom, but by the effects described one should assume the symptoms would be the same as an intestinal obstruction). Any of these symptons would certainly put Tywin on alert, and even if his pride prevented him from going to a Maester and admit he was not able to poop", he would certainly not be in the mood for sex. Personally, I believe that Tywin's body putrefaction was less related to him (both poisoning or metaphorically) and more a slight against Cersei by someone purposedly tampering with the body's conditioning. In fact, if I'm not mistaken I recall Cersei thinking something of the sort "someone must have purposedly tampered with the conditioning", and she's got to be right once in the series at least! Specially with the Queen of Thorns around who is really not above this poo poo if the payoff is making snarky remarks in Cersei's face. lezard_valeth fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 04:31
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The circumstances surrounding Tywin's death were constructed basically to bring this guy crashing down from the pedestal he'd been put on for 3 books. He was this master politician, tactician, Warden of the West and Hand of the King that everyone feared and respected for good reason, but when it came down to it, he's a hypocrite that fucks whores in the tower of the hand and takes smelly dumps and putrefies when he's a corpse just like everybody else. GRRM really likes to toy with the idea of the illusion of power and majesty, and in characterizing Tywin's death that way, he brings a weight and a reality to his fantasy that doesn't quite ring as true when it's just a set up for a poisoning plot that's never touched on again and has no consequence to the story as a whole. Though there's nothing wrong with choosing to believe it's an action that Oberyn took, it would fit his character.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:50
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God Hole posted:The circumstances surrounding Tywin's death were constructed basically to bring this guy crashing down from the pedestal he'd been put on for 3 books. He was this master politician, tactician, Warden of the West and Hand of the King that everyone feared and respected for good reason, but when it came down to it, he's a hypocrite that fucks whores in the tower of the hand and takes smelly dumps and putrefies when he's a corpse just like everybody else. The thing I have against this on the other hand, is that I literally cannot remember another scenario where GRRM did something of the sort, ala "look, he is rotting because it's a symbolism of how twisted and corrupt he is. do you see?". Whenever I remember GRRM doing symbolism, I remember it being subtle and not In Your Face. Of course, I only read the books fully once 4 or 5 years ago, and then just repeatedly went back from time to time to specific chapters.
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Mar 29, 2016 05:14
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lezard_valeth posted:The thing I have against this on the other hand, is that I literally cannot remember another scenario where GRRM did something of the sort, ala "look, he is rotting because it's a symbolism of how twisted and corrupt he is. do you see?". Whenever I remember GRRM doing symbolism, I remember it being subtle and not In Your Face. It's not symbolic of his being corrupt, but a deconstruction of the illusion of his superiority as perceived by those around him. He's not an infallible Golden Lion, he's just a pink little man. GRRM does this all the time. Rob Stark was supposed to be the totally justified rebel leader on a romantic quest to avenge his father and free his kingdom, then he gets stabbed to death at a wedding. Jaime Lannister is literally the personification of prince charming, a handsome man, a fierce and legendary fighter of noble birth, and then he pushes an innocent little boy out of a window and fucks his sister. Oberyn is Inigo Montoya without the catharsis. GRRM plays with tropes and expectations.
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Mar 29, 2016 05:22
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It's a religious thing.
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Mar 29, 2016 05:25
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God Hole posted:It's not symbolic of his being corrupt, but a deconstruction of the illusion of his superiority as perceived by those around him. He's not an infallible Golden Lion, he's just a pink little man. Deconstruction, yeah, he does a lot. However the funeral is not Tywin's deconstruction. To the reader, Tywin's deconstruction is Tyrion finding he was loving Shae and Not So Above It All. By the time of the funeral the reader already knows he was just a pink little man like the rest, so it doesn't come as a surprise that he would rot just as any... Except the Silent Sister's are really good at body conditioning, leaving the outcome as either Tywin being poisoned, the religious purity metaphor (which I really can't remember GRRM doing anywhere else) , or an in-universe slight against the Lannister name.
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Mar 29, 2016 05:48
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Ague Proof posted:It's a religious thing. In more ways than one; the rapidly putrefying body happened to Rodrigo Borgia, whom Martin borrowed heavily from for Tywin like how cersei/Jaime borrows a lot from Lucretia/Ceseare. Though historians still argue whether the putrefaction was from poison or the fact it was hot in Rome that year and took a long time to find a church that was willing to take Rodrigo's corpse.
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Mar 29, 2016 06:01
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In It For The Tank posted:Watched the audio commentaries for Season 5. Unless I missed something, that report that said that the commentaries confirm that GRRM told David and Dan that Stannis will burn Shireen in the books was incorrect. Iain Glen, Peter Dinklage, and David Nutter (the director of the episode) are on the commentary track for episode 9. During the burning scene, Iain asks if he's right in thinking George told David and Dan that Shireen is burned in a future book. David Nutter doesn't know and neither does Peter and they both just say that they know David and Dan are in contact with GRRM. Iain says he's pretty sure he's right and says that, in response to the backlash over the scene, GRRM came out subsequently stated that it does happen (which isn't true; in fact, he basically did the opposite and refused to comment on what the show portrayed and merely reiterated how things stood at the end of ADWD). Meanwhile, David and Dan are on the commentary for episode 10 and they don't say anything about GRRM or his plans the future books during the entirety of Stannis' final scenes. So... exactly what we thought, how surprising.
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Mar 29, 2016 09:13
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TOOT BOOT posted:The show seems to whitewash the main characters a little more so I wouldn't be surprised if she's killed to bring back Jon in the books. Only death can pay for life and all that. Nah, it's the fact that it achieves absolutely nothing that makes Stannis burning Shireen perfect. This is what really completes the 'perhaps you shouldn't listen to strange religious people telling you you'll be a Chosen One if you only kill your family' thing. For Jon, I'm guessing it will take Ghost + a willing suicide from Mel. But hey, we'll know in a month or six weeks or so.
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Mar 29, 2016 09:23
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Why would constipation poison make Tywin's body rot faster? Why would any poison, short of something that causes pre-fatal necrosis, like Krokodil? His body was clearly functioning well enough to bang whores right before he died. Also Stannis is obviously going to be the one to sacrifice Shireen. As long as we know the sacrifice is happening, we know that Stannis will be the one to do it, in the same way that we know Daenerys is not going to save Westeros by running it over with the Golden Horde, dragons, and an army of slaves.
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Mar 29, 2016 09:34
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Kajeesus posted:Also Stannis is obviously going to be the one to sacrifice Shireen. As long as we know the sacrifice is happening, we know that Stannis will be the one to do it. I'm sorry but this is just you jumping to conclusions, you guys are saying "it fits thematically so it must happen", which is fine and whatever but we don't actually know anything, we might guess and speculate but that's how things stand at the moment. I'll remind again that as of the end of ADWD Stan and Shireen are about a hundred leagues apart and the book ends with Melisandre receiving a likely fabricated letter claiming Stannis is dead, there are compelling reasons to think she might do it out of her own volition, no one knows.
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Mar 29, 2016 09:39
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Stannis is going to take Winterfell and have his family shipped over. Just you wait and see!
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Mar 29, 2016 09:48
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If Melisandre is going to burn someone to try and bring back Jon Snow I'd guess Gilly's baby, who everyone thinks is Mance's son and who Jon swore to protect, or maybe the idiot wildling who thought Kingsblood was a good last name to take.
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Mar 29, 2016 13:25
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All I know is that the issue of Stannis and Shireen and the possibility/placement of those chain of events would more likely than not have been moot if the Battle for Winterfell was actually in ADWD.
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Mar 29, 2016 14:06
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