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Combed Thunderclap posted:Which I like to pretend at least some Minds obey in part because they know it would spoil a lot of the fun, in addition to the lengthy moral/ethical reasons. I feel like this probably explains several restrictions Minds operate under.
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May 5, 2016 02:05
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Toast Museum posted:I feel like this probably explains several restrictions Minds operate under. Thirded. There's no enforcement of the various rules beyond social stigma, and clearly even that's not a problem unless you choose to make it so. Minds sometimes choose to follow the rules purely because it's more interesting to operate under constraints than not to.
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May 5, 2016 08:58
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Human behaviour can be predicted to a certain degree of accuracy, but if you want almost perfect predictive models, you run into The Simming Problem. Which is this. To really, properly simulate societies, and the interaction of the lifeforms within them, you have to create agents so sophistiated that they are actually considered individual, sapient beings in their own right. Which leads to several ethical dilemas, chief of which are; What do you do with the agents after the simulation has reached the desired end point? And (if you don't delete them), do you let them know they're in a simulation? Deleting a whole society of life forms is geocide, even if you did create them and they're running on a spare bit of substrate in your metaphorical basement. Letting them know that they were created just to act as a problem solving machine is pretty horrible to. So do you let them continue in their own little pocket universe, taking up procesing time? What happens if they find out by themselves that their whole universe is simulated?
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May 5, 2016 12:10
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Is that a quote from Hydrogen Sonata? I know they went into the Simming Problem there and why Minds thus can't perfectly predict.
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May 5, 2016 12:48
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It's not a direct quote, but yeah, I'm paraphrasing HS
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May 5, 2016 19:54
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Trick question, they aren't alive and neither are humans with their puny brains :idiran:
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May 5, 2016 22:25
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The good droneship Of Course I Still Love You just caught her second intact rocket, which is nice. Triple deceleration burn this time due to a high orbit launch, too. Last time that punched a hole in her. The poor Just Read The Instructions must be feeling left out. All she's had is a rocket that fell over after it landed.  It's hilarious to watch the cast and there's a big complex graphic with the earth and trajectories and burns and stage one and stage two marked and then a dot just reading "Of Course I Still Love You"  Also, someone in the space thread posted an amazing gag from Hot Fuzz I never knew about : Alaan posted:To briefly go back to Banks, I was watching Hot Fuzz again the other day and noticed the guy at the police station desk that is always reading has all Banks books. Every scene he has a different one. Antti posted:It goes deeper than that, actually. It's two identical twins, and the other twin reads Iain M. Banks and the other twin reads Iain Banks without the M (which is how Banks kept his SF and his other books separated). MikeJF fucked around with this message at 14:26 on May 6, 2016 |
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May 6, 2016 14:13
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The Culture are "the good guys" in the same way that the Liberal West in our world are the "good guys." It's the best place to live, but its not perfect, and its certainly not always in the right, particularly when it chooses to interfere in other civilizations/nations. I still haven't read the last two books, but the whole series is just a really fascinating take on the liberal interventionism problem, IMO.
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May 6, 2016 14:27
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Seldom Posts posted:The Culture are "the good guys" in the same way that the Liberal West in our world are the "good guys." It's the best place to live, but its not perfect, and its certainly not always in the right, particularly when it chooses to interfere in other civilizations/nations. Except the Culture gets around the entire issue with liberal interventionism by being able to simulate with high degree of accuracy the results - orders of magnitude of success more than enough to offset the very few failures of prediction.
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May 6, 2016 14:38
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Also, the Culture's meddling is usually intended to improve quality of life outside the Culture, not to profit the Culture. I mean, they benefit from outsiders becoming more like themselves, but their primary goal legitimately does seem to be making the rest of the galaxy a better place, and they're demonstrably good at it. It's hard to make the same claim about real-world intervention.
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May 6, 2016 15:03
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Yes, it's very polite cultural imperialism.
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May 7, 2016 11:56
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drat imperialists messing up with the rape and torture culture of poor Azad, where is this galaxy coming to.
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May 7, 2016 12:16
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MeLKoR posted:drat imperialists messing up with the rape and torture culture of poor Afghans/Iraqis/ISIS, where is this galaxy coming to.
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May 7, 2016 12:43
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Most of the books in the series explore this idea in some way and with more nuance. It's worth noting the one time they are dealing with an unthinkably terrible space ISIS civilisation in Excession, the Culture not refuses to act directly as it would overstep its bounds but actively thwarts a Mind plot to bait them into declaring war with the aims of forcing them to curtail their atrocities as part of the terms of surrender. Also, one of the main problems with western interventions in the middle east etc is they're heavy handed millitary excersions and have almost always made things worse. If the Culture can give a developing civilisation a few gentle nudges which will likely result in less instances of millions of people being systemically exterminated in death camps, that's a different kettle of fish.
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May 7, 2016 13:12
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Send all atrocity-committing despots on the Zakalwe Trainride. 
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May 7, 2016 13:20
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C'mon, are you implying that Bush was a Mind?
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May 7, 2016 13:20
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MeLKoR posted:drat imperialists messing up with the rape and torture culture of poor Azad, where is this galaxy coming to. cultural relativism is this unironically p much. MikeJF posted:Except the Culture gets around the entire issue with liberal interventionism by being able to simulate with high degree of accuracy the results - orders of magnitude of success more than enough to offset the very few failures of prediction. but you have to trust their numbers.
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May 7, 2016 15:21
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We're focusing on the really nasty stuff but it's important to remember the Culture has its own unique set of political beliefs that are more grey area than Rape and Torture Bad. From Use of Weapons:quote:"They want other people to be like them, Cheradenine. They don't terraform, so they don't want others to either. There are arguments for it as well, you know; increasing species diversity often seems more important to people than preserving a wilderness, even without the provision of extra living space. The Culture believes profoundly in machine sentience, so it thinks everybody ought to, but I think it also believes every civilization should be run by its machines. Fewer people want that. The issue of cross-species tolerance is, I'll grant, of a different nature, but even there the Culture can sometimes appear to be insistent that deliberate inter-mixing is not just permissible but desirable; almost a duty. Again, who is to say that is correct?"
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May 7, 2016 15:58
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Also incest is a-okay (Player of Games).
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May 7, 2016 17:20
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what i found interesting about Horza is his fundamentalism seems to be in contrast with his existence as a Changer, who at one point are said to be an engineered species designed purely for warfare. He says he's on the side of "life", with all its messiness, scoffs at the Culture for their fear of pain etc., yet has no problems controlling his own physiology in the same way that Culture citizens do. I'm curious how people read the scenes on Vavatch. I sort of suspect they're aimed at exploring Horza's contradictions but I'm not smart enough to get there. I'm not sure what the island of the Eaters represents - a kind of weird materialism? or do we just dismiss the Eaters as deluded and move on, which is the Culture's attitude to religion (Horza claims). This section was interesting because it shows Horza's not really pro-Idiran, just anti-Culture, and he's opposed to the Culture's determinism, or "over-deliberate, too-planned ideals". He sees this same tendency in the Idirans yet because they "relied on themselves, not their machines", Horza is OK with it, in that their plans to conquer the galaxy for religious reasons will eventually fail. So Horza's really just anti-Machine, or really anti-Mind, in that Minds and their predictive abilities make life overly determined and meaningless, and make the Culture's own imperialism potentially capable of assimilating/homogenizing the entire galaxy? Is this right? Horza's not totally wrong here, in the anti-imperialist sense, but do people agree the Culture is overly deterministic? Also, the scene during the Damage game where Horza forgets who he is while experiencing Kraiklyn's emotional state was interesting to me, in that it shows the contradictions of an individualist who's nature is impersonation of others. Horza is interesting to me because honestly, he feels a lot like a Culture citizen in many ways. Individualism seems important to the culture, in that it provides pretty much everything people need for self-realization, etc. His dissent from the Culture and dislike of Special Circumstances type imperialism isn't all that different from most Culture citizens either. Last question: do we know what happens to machines that do, uh, "bad things"? We know humans get slap-droned, for example, if they murder people. Machines certainly aren't infallible. I forget what happens to the conspirator ships in Excession. Do they just get "slap-droned" on a massive scale, like the ship that has to follow around Sleeper Service? Or do they simply get "re-programmed" ?
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May 7, 2016 17:58
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MeLKoR posted:C'mon, are you implying that Bush was a Mind? GSV Can't get fooled again
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May 7, 2016 18:10
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shallowj posted:I forget what happens to the conspirator ships in Excession. Do they just get "slap-droned" on a massive scale, like the ship that has to follow around Sleeper Service? Or do they simply get "re-programmed" ? One of the conspirator ships was so ashamed of its involvement that it committed suicide. Otherwise it isn't covered, although it's implied that the Minds involved in the conspiracy are about to get shamed out of their minds. More generally, humans and drones have been offered psychological adjustment therapy where they get their minds rejiggered, no reason Minds mightn't be offered the same if they don't want a slap-drone. The alternative would be having your ability to affect change removed, which is the natural next step in how the Culture deals with powerful machines who become dangerous to others.
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May 7, 2016 19:08
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shallowj posted:Last question: do we know what happens to machines that do, uh, "bad things"? We know humans get slap-droned, for example, if they murder people. Machines certainly aren't infallible. I forget what happens to the conspirator ships in Excession. Do they just get "slap-droned" on a massive scale, like the ship that has to follow around Sleeper Service? Or do they simply get "re-programmed" ? If we take Grey Area as an example for his rampant mind raping, they are called mean names and don't get invited to the nice parties.
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May 7, 2016 19:35
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Combed Thunderclap posted:One of the conspirator ships was so ashamed of its involvement that it committed suicide. Otherwise it isn't covered, although it's implied that the Minds involved in the conspiracy are about to get shamed out of their minds. It wasn't ashamed, it's brain was hacked and made to feel extreme remorse to the point of painfully comitting suicide. It was essentially murder with extreme prejudice.
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May 7, 2016 20:05
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multijoe posted:It wasn't ashamed, it's brain was hacked and made to feel extreme remorse to the point of painfully comitting suicide. It was essentially murder with extreme prejudice.  Whoops. Clearly not remembering things correctly.
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May 7, 2016 20:39
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Didn't both those things happen, but to different ships?
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May 7, 2016 21:21
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Didn't both those things happen, but to different ships? Yes. The Attitude Adjuster was the ship that was coerced by the Killing Time to use its own engine fields to lobotomize itself. The Not Invented Here was one of the chief conspirators along with the Steely Glint. The Not Invented Here decided to switch off its power source and end its own life instead of face the consequences when it got caught, and the Steely Glint opted to surrender and face judgement.
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May 7, 2016 22:47
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i was rooting for the iridans in consider phlebas.
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May 7, 2016 22:58
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Lasting Damage posted:Yes. The Attitude Adjuster was the ship that was coerced by the Killing Time to use its own engine fields to lobotomize itself. Probably one of the most hosed up things a Mind has ever done, imo. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 23:42 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 22:58
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shallowj posted:Last question: do we know what happens to machines that do, uh, "bad things"? We know humans get slap-droned, for example, if they murder people. Machines certainly aren't infallible. I forget what happens to the conspirator ships in Excession. Do they just get "slap-droned" on a massive scale, like the ship that has to follow around Sleeper Service? Or do they simply get "re-programmed" ? I doubt they'd be allowed to stay in a large ship. If they're even still allowed their mobility, I bet it'd a tiny slow unnamed unit with a built-in slap-drone.
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May 7, 2016 23:27
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Probably one of the most hosed up things a Mind has ever done, imo. It had it coming. And I'm with the Meat Fucker, nazi lizards shouldn't get to die peacefully in bed after genociding scaly jews. It's a dirty job but someone has got to do it.
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May 8, 2016 00:29
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Otisburg posted:Send all atrocity-committing despots on the Zakalwe Trainride. But it is their cultural right!!! (the cultural right of the despots that is, not the millions of dead undesirables) shallowj posted:Last question: do we know what happens to machines that do, uh, "bad things"? We know humans get slap-droned, for example, if they murder people. Machines certainly aren't infallible. I forget what happens to the conspirator ships in Excession. Do they just get "slap-droned" on a massive scale, like the ship that has to follow around Sleeper Service? Or do they simply get "re-programmed" ? I think they say that Contact basically assigns a warship to tail them for the rest of their existence and keep them out of trouble. But for a Mind, the humiliation of it is the real punishment, and I guess that would be the same even for a Mind that didn't merit an escort Strategic Tea fucked around with this message at 00:47 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 00:44
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MeLKoR posted:It had it coming. And I'm with the Meat Fucker, nazi lizards shouldn't get to die peacefully in bed after genociding scaly jews. It's a dirty job but someone has got to do it. Whether or not it deserved to die is up for debate, but weapons designed to cause maximum pain have no place in a utopian society, or any society for that matter.
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May 8, 2016 08:19
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Whether or not it deserved to die is up for debate, but weapons designed to cause maximum pain have no place in a utopian society, or any society for that matter. Disclaimer: I'm against the death penalty IRL but come on, how do you keep gods in check if they decide the little meatbag's lives are of no consequence? I'd imagine being executed with extreme prejudice by your own god like peers might be a form of deterrence that actually works.
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May 8, 2016 10:38
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Whether or not it deserved to die is up for debate, but weapons designed to cause maximum pain have no place in a utopian society, or any society for that matter. It was basically just hacked with effectors, no dedicated weapon. It was no e-dust assassin OH YEAH LET'S GO THERE.
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May 8, 2016 11:08
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I've decide the E-dust assassin was from some other group, programmed to think it was from the Culture. Contradictions eradicated, cognitive dissonance done away with.
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May 8, 2016 13:30
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Peztopiary posted:I've decide the E-dust assassin was from some other group, programmed to think it was from the Culture. Contradictions eradicated, cognitive dissonance done away with. I think I recall the GFCF taking credit for it in Surface Detail.
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May 8, 2016 14:13
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Peztopiary posted:I've decide the E-dust assassin was from some other group, programmed to think it was from the Culture. Contradictions eradicated, cognitive dissonance done away with. Ive always assumed it was 100% the Culture, it's us as readers gettIng the motive wrong. The reason they used the e-dust, the reason it was so gratuitously violent, was all to reinforce 'do not gently caress with the Culture'. They're not taking any pleasure in it - they're reinforcing a message in a visible, obvious way to a society that has clearly forgotten. Minds are 'past' vengeance, they don't need it, this was about a narrative. 'If you push us, no, we don't have any boundaries.' Viewed that way, there's much less of an issue. It's, weighed on balance, a choice of prudence.
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May 8, 2016 14:23
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Shockeh posted:Ive always assumed it was 100% the Culture, it's us as readers gettIng the motive wrong. The reason they used the e-dust, the reason it was so gratuitously violent, was all to reinforce 'do not gently caress with the Culture'. They're not taking any pleasure in it - they're reinforcing a message in a visible, obvious way to a society that has clearly forgotten. Minds are 'past' vengeance, they don't need it, this was about a narrative. Oh that was absolutely what I assumed was the reason. It is, after all, not just a weapon, but a terror weapon. And the book makes a point of telling you several times how it deliberately leaves enough surveillance intact to make it clear to the Chelgrians exactly what happened. It was a deliberate, thought-out reminder to everyone not to mess with The Culture. And because of the Chelgrian-puen, they couldn't just fake it. The thing is... even if they could have, I don't think they would have. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 14:53 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 14:48
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MikeJF posted:It was basically just hacked with effectors, no dedicated weapon. It was no e-dust assassin OH YEAH LET'S GO THERE. Yeah the e-dust assassin is bad, but "hacked with effectors" is pretty euphemistic. A Mind was taken over and made to go through enough psycholgical pain that it committed suicide. One of the Culture's biggest taboos is loving with sapients' minds without their permission, they're supposed to be better than that. Of course that's the point. When pushed, they're not. Not really.
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May 8, 2016 20:19
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