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mossyfisk posted:Talking to your past lives is 100% not a thing sane people do in AWOT If he was the reincarnation of Jesus and Jesus was telling him things he did not already know somehow then sure.
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Jun 15, 2016 22:25
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No, it's more like if Jesus didn't believe he was Jesus, so he imagined that he was hearing Jesus' voice as an explanation for why he knew all of the Jesus secrets.
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Jun 15, 2016 22:53
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I like that I suppressed or skimmed over most of the spanking stuff my first reading of the series. Now everything is ruined.
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Jun 15, 2016 22:56
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Data Graham posted:Is there any kind of insight anywhere into which parts of the final three were by Jordan, and how far along they were? Sanderson has made some comments on certain sections that were 100% him and sections that were 100% Jordan on twitter and at some conventions, but I don't think we'll ever know everything exactly. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn section at the end of ToM was 100% Jordan, the epilogue was like 98% Jordan, a huge chunk of each book's prologue (including the super good scene in ToM in the borderlands), and etc were Jordan. There's more as well but those are the ones off the top of my head that were almost entirely him, instead of concepts, sentences, or paragraphs that needed to get turned into chapters by Sanderson.
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Jun 15, 2016 23:05
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The bulk of the epilogue was Jordan, it's just that it's basically a first draft that he set down as the target he wanted to hit at the very end. Brandon and Harriet inserted it mostly as-is (I believe a bit of Loial and most/all of Perrin was inserted as Brandon's work) out of respect for essentially Jordan's last words in the series instead of editing for language.
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Jun 15, 2016 23:24
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I thought the Aelfinn/Eelfinn section was 100% Sanderson, with him saying that what he understood from how Moiraine would come back didn't seem to make sense and would have been really confusing or something? I seem to remember reading something like this and thinking that that entire section seemed a bit out of place with the rest of the book even then.
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Jun 15, 2016 23:25
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Data Graham posted:I... guess? I mean I can certainly see him interpreting that as a threat, and the whole situation looking like everybody ganging up on him and all his suspicions about Aes Sedai coming true. Uncontrollable rage borne from madness ought to involve more non-sequiturs, I'd think. This just sounds like he's justifiably pissed. This happens all the time in real life. This is actually why it's such a good literary representation of actual insanity. The mind is really good at rationalizing and insane people typically have great difficulty reaching realizing that they're insane; the mind rationalizes it all and fits it all together. From the outside it appears all non sequiturs, but it makes internal sense.
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Jun 15, 2016 23:33
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Torrannor posted:I can't recall that at all, but I now remember that most of the Wise Ones spanked her when she revealed that she was not a full Aes Sedai. I must have simply suppressed that memory. It really is worse than I thought That's a hell of a chapter to tune out, it's like 60 pages long Egwene all building dumbledore's army
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Jun 15, 2016 23:37
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Jun 16, 2016 05:43
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Every author had to start somewhere.
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Jun 16, 2016 06:08
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I'm disappointed that the WOT wiki doesn't have a section on spanking.
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Jun 16, 2016 10:58
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I mean it's practically its own character.
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Jun 16, 2016 12:50
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Yeah, well, probably doesn't help that the person who maintained it for a while is an ur-feminist who puts robocops to shame. That was one aspect of the series she was all too happy to pointedly ignore.
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Jun 16, 2016 16:33
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socialsecurity posted:If he was the reincarnation of Jesus "If"
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Jun 16, 2016 17:24
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How does an ur-feminist in the modern era become a WoT fan? Between the Seanchan and the gender-binary/male redemption stuff, seems like it would be kryptonite.
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Jun 16, 2016 21:03
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Ties into the "well, it was very progressive for when it came out.." line of thought. In addition to maintaining the FAQ she also did the re-read at tor.com for the WoT series (and is now doing a re-re-read, because....because). She's mellowed out in the last few years, but her earlier entries were pretty rant-y.
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Jun 16, 2016 21:10
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OAquinas posted:Ties into the "well, it was very progressive for when it came out.." line of thought. In addition to maintaining the FAQ she also did the re-read at tor.com for the WoT series (and is now doing a re-re-read, because....because). She's mellowed out in the last few years, but her earlier entries were pretty rant-y. She's also a terrible writer, even after however many years doing commentary she still comes across as a meme-obsessed teenager. I hesitate to say she has terrible opinions, because I actually agree with some of what she says, but it just stuns me that she can muster up the energy to get so annoyed about things in a fantasy not real made up world
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Jun 16, 2016 21:53
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Data Graham posted:How does an ur-feminist in the modern era become a WoT fan? While Jordan may frequently fail in his writing of women (*sniff*tug*smooth* etc.), there is a lot of good in the basic structure of his work. Women are everywhere, from lowly servants to the most powerful good and bad guys/gals, and everywhere in between. Especially after the first book, the series smashes the Bechdel test. Compare this to the Lord of the Rings, which has only one real female character (Eowyn), and his contemporaries were only marginally better. See the Sword of Truth books. Or compare it to Harry Potter. Hermione is on equal grounds with the guys (more or less). But McGonagall is clearly not as important as Dumbledore and Snape, or the various teachers that turn out to be bad guys later. Bellatrix is also more or less the token female villain. The Seanchan also probably shouldn't be a problem for feminists? The succession is at least enatic-cognatic, if not outright enatic (like Andor). And (free) women are even less restricted than basically everywhere else, since they can absolutely join the military without anybody finding this strange, and can raise to the highest ranks. Without having to give up marriage like the Maidens in the only other culture with female warriors. Of course, they practice slavery, which is really horrible. But the only gender-specific difference here is that they kill male channelers on sight while enslaving female channelers. And if the A'dam would work on men as well as on women, they would probably enslave the men just like the women, at least after Saidin is clean. And the women are not defined by their relationship to the men. Egwene leads the Aes Sedai, Aviendha is important among the Wise Ones, Elayne is queen in her own right and outright rejects Rand giving her the throne of Andor. Nynaeve is also independent of Lan, Moiraine's relationship with Thom clearly is less important to her than her deal with Rand. Myn is an edge case, but even she creates a niche for herself apart from being Rand's girlfriend. Same deal with the Forsaken, except for Lanfear, of course. But in the end, even she was quite content to try and kill Rand. So in total, there's a lot that Wheel of Time does right, some things it does better than many other mainstream fantasy series do. Jordan also does things wrong. In addition to having trouble writing women as anything but controlling bitches, the spanking doesn't help. But overall, especially for the time that it was written, it shouldn't be kryptonite to feminists.
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Jun 16, 2016 22:19
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my current read through has stalled out at book 8 (I may just skip ahead to 11, and not miss much), but I wanted to ask the thread what they thought about the Sea Folk in general and the Coramoor thing too; in short, they both feel tacked on - the Sea Folk seemed like a bit of world-flavor that got fleshed out seemingly for no reason, and I don't actually remember the Coramoor thing going anywhere at all.
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Jun 16, 2016 22:28
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It doesn't. The Sea Folk are basically terrible, and they never amount to more than a floating migraine and weather plot device. I'd say to power through if you can. Book 9 has some great stuff happening towards the end, and book 10 is pretty short (as WoT goes) and it isn't terrible when read back-to-back with the others. Book 11 is a return to great form. If you want a way to speed through, just skip the chapter if it has the word "Perrin" or "Malden" in it. Goddamn those sucked.
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Jun 16, 2016 22:44
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Gotta have someone to sit in a circle around their magic cauldron up on top of the mountain going DOUBLE DOUBLE TOIL AND TROUBLE E: sorry spoilers
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Jun 16, 2016 23:15
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OAquinas posted:If you want a way to speed through, just skip the chapter if it has the word "Perrin" or "Malden" in it. Goddamn those sucked. One thing I found annoying in particular about the narrative is how many seemingly important, the-whole-plot-hinges-on-this events seem to take place offscreen. The whole thing about poisoning the water supply, telegraphed as far ahead as the first time you see the aqueduct on the town map, was set up like it was going to have this great big dramatic payoff, both in an action-movie scene of the deed being done and in subsequent scenes of the victims reacting to it. But there's barely anything. You could miss the whole thing if you're reading carelessly. But god drat if we don't get about six times as many Faile chapters as we needed Same with frickin' Couladin. Make him the most punchable character in decades, tease his comeuppance for like two books, make us all think we're gonna get a great showdown scene where Rand totally clowns him... and then kill him off in a flashback by basically tripping over Mat's spear when even Mat wasn't really paying attention
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Jun 16, 2016 23:25
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Torrannor posted:While Jordan may frequently fail in his writing of women (*sniff*tug*smooth* etc.), there is a lot of good in the basic structure of his work. Women are everywhere, from lowly servants to the most powerful good and bad guys/gals, and everywhere in between. Especially after the first book, the series smashes the Bechdel test. Compare this to the Lord of the Rings, which has only one real female character (Eowyn), and his contemporaries were only marginally better. See the Sword of Truth books. Or compare it to Harry Potter. Hermione is on equal grounds with the guys (more or less). But McGonagall is clearly not as important as Dumbledore and Snape, or the various teachers that turn out to be bad guys later. Bellatrix is also more or less the token female villain. The Wheel of Time crushes pretty much every fantasy series in this aspect, modern or not. Hell, just try and think of female characters who actually have a bit of characterization to them past "girl who Harry crushes on" or the like: Harry Potter(8): Hermione, McGonagall, Bellatrix, Umbridge, Luna, Weasley Mom, Umbridge, shapeshifter chick who married the werewolf LotR (1): Eowyn. Abercrombie (3): Monza, the red-headed Practical, Ferro GRRM(7): Brienne, Catelyn, Cersei, Sansa, Arya, Dany, Theon's sister, the Tyrell grandma. Scott Lynch(3): The Duke's Spider, Locke's love interest, Falconer's mother WoT(31+): Egwene, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elayne, Siuan, Verin, Birgitte, Elaida, Lanfear, Moghedien, Graendel, Mesaana, Semirhage, Tuon, Suroth, Min, Faile, Surin, Aviendha, Amys, Bair, Sorilea, Cadsuane, Morgase, Alviarin, Galina, Sevanna, Reanne, Sheriam, Lelaine, Romanda... And that's not even close to all of them. Yeah, WoT does have a big advantage because it's so huge and sprawling that it just plain has more characters, but it persists even as a ratio. WoT has at least as many female characters as male characters; almost certainly more female ones due to the Aes Sedai, and most of those characters exist as more than "Friend's mom" or "Hero's love interest". It's easy to forget about this with the hosed up gender politics and the whole redemption-of-male-channelers thing, but WoT still deserves credit just for that whole thing where it actually has female characters. Most other series in the genre don't even come close to a 1:1 ratio. Hell, most can't manage 1:2 and lots of them still strike out at 1:3.
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Jun 16, 2016 23:35
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OAquinas posted:Yeah, well, probably doesn't help that the person who maintained it for a while is an ur-feminist who puts robocops to shame. That was one aspect of the series she was all too happy to pointedly ignore. Leigh Butler did not ignore the spanking, she complained about it repeatedly during her re-read to the point where it's been suggested that the scene where cadsuane broke semhirage with spanking was written specifically by Sanderson to gently caress with her.
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Jun 17, 2016 04:35
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The Lord Bude posted:Leigh Butler did not ignore the spanking, she complained about it repeatedly during her re-read to the point where it's been suggested that the scene where cadsuane broke semhirage with spanking was written specifically by Sanderson to gently caress with her. Sanderson was definitely laughing his rear end off as he wrote that scene. Like, rolling up his sleeves, rubbing his hands, and shouting TAKE THIS YOU JACKHOLES into the night as he began to type.
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Jun 17, 2016 04:37
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Torrannor posted:The Seanchan also probably shouldn't be a problem for feminists? The succession is at least enatic-cognatic, if not outright enatic (like Andor). And (free) women are even less restricted than basically everywhere else, since they can absolutely join the military without anybody finding this strange, and can raise to the highest ranks. Without having to give up marriage like the Maidens in the only other culture with female warriors. Of course, they practice slavery, which is really horrible. But the only gender-specific difference here is that they kill male channelers on sight while enslaving female channelers. And if the A'dam would work on men as well as on women, they would probably enslave the men just like the women, at least after Saidin is clean. Well um, I mean the Seanchan aren't a problem because of their politics. It's more just that there's a whole ooky factor to the general idea of damane, and not for purely diegetic reasons. I mean like, yes you're supposed to react with revulsion to the idea of women on leashes being treated like literal dogs because in-universe it's a horrific thing for these people to do. But on another level, you have to ask "Why exactly did he feel it necessary to write about this?" I mean it's not like it's an inevitable logical extrapolation of his universe's rules, and even if it were, he didn't need to spend so much time focusing so graphically on it.
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Jun 17, 2016 04:42
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I wouldn't be surprised if it was intended to evoke the draft, as well.
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Jun 17, 2016 16:32
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Data Graham posted:I mean it's not like it's an inevitable logical extrapolation of his universe's rules, and even if it were, he didn't need to spend so much time focusing so graphically on it. What, 'channelers in this nation are enslaved and treated like animals because they think they're dangerous' isn't a logical extrapolation of 'people in every nation are really loving terrified of male channelers, and marginally less of female channelers, because they literally destroyed the world' and 'someone in this nation figured out a way to enslave female channelers'? Maybe some people think it was focused on too much, but I feel like it's perfectly in tune with the story. This focus gave a bunch of characters some important traits (Egwene as an important example), gave some antagonists sympathetic events so that they're not just cartoonishly evil, and is a logical extension of one of the major conflicts in the book.
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Jun 17, 2016 19:06
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Fine, but my point is that it's a very tasteless and fetishy mental image, and the choice to dwell on it so much is a deliberate one. This discussion feels like the argument over whether the "Smell the Glove" cover was out of line.
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Jun 17, 2016 19:37
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Data Graham posted:the choice to dwell on it so much is a deliberate one. Data Graham posted:but my point is that it's a very tasteless and fetishy mental image e: even when Nynaeve and Elayne are partaking in some pseudo-slavery their intuitive reactions to the device and it's effects are those of revulsion (morally suspect as their own actions may be) JawKnee fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 19:44
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Data Graham posted:Fine, but my point is that it's a very tasteless and fetishy mental image, and the choice to dwell on it so much is a deliberate one. Maybe you're the one dwelling on it
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Jun 17, 2016 21:56
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it's a fantasy series, so bob put his fantasies in it
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Jun 18, 2016 03:29
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Hogge Wild posted:it's a fantasy series, so bob put his fantasies in it That was pretty much his exact wording when asked if he thought having three women in love with his protagonist, all friends with each other, was realistic.
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Jun 18, 2016 05:21
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That was pretty much his exact wording when asked if he thought having three women in love with his protagonist, all friends with each other, was realistic. *Insert story about him dating two women at the same time here*
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Jun 18, 2016 05:43
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Data Graham posted:Fine, but my point is that it's a very tasteless and fetishy mental image, and the choice to dwell on it so much is a deliberate one. My dude you are projecting a lot here.
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Jun 18, 2016 06:11
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So aaaaanyway, what's the consensus on the oddball textual flourishes in the first couple books, like the deja vu scenes in the abandoned town, or the much subtler one in book 1 where two separate guys give them two identical sets of scarves with identical wording? Were those foreshadowing of madness (even though he's barely started channeling by that point)?
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Jun 18, 2016 12:02
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Data Graham posted:So aaaaanyway, what's the consensus on the oddball textual flourishes in the first couple books, like the deja vu scenes in the abandoned town, or the much subtler one in book 1 where two separate guys give them two identical sets of scarves with identical wording? Were those foreshadowing of madness (even though he's barely started channeling by that point)? I'm pretty sure the bit in book one is just a bit of out of order narrative. I think it's meant to be a flashback-flashforward type thing but it doesn't quite work. The deja vu stuff in Book 2 seems like the explanation is "a wizard did it."
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Jun 18, 2016 14:41
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I always assumed that the deja vu thing was ishamael loving around in the world of dreams before Jordan had a concrete idea of how to use the world of dreams. I think that's actually mentioned in a later book.
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Jun 18, 2016 15:13
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Could also be Mordeth/Fain doing...things. he's shown to have some funky illusion power later, so it could be his doing. Early books=lot of retcon/ignored later stuff
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Jun 18, 2016 17:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The deja vu stuff in Book 2 seems like the explanation is "a wizard did it." It was confirmed to be a sort of time loop trap set up by Fain. I honestly think a lot of the "early book retcon" stuff is mistaken, on the part of the fans. The early smiling Fade for example is obviously an early version Shaidar Haran, just like the one that shows up in the prologue to TDR. Link Uhhh. so yeah. a wizzard did it. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 18:06
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