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TheDeadlyShoe posted:No jobs are not limited. I don't know why all these educated and qualified natives are worried about skill less nonspeakers. They aren't even going after the same jobs presumably. Nobody you need to care about is stressed because "foreigners will steal our jobs", and have actually never been, it's rather that there are no jobs so foreigners will have to live on handouts provided by the locals. That is an issue people have. There is a problem with cutting services and leaving pensioners (those old folks who enabled any European welfare states to begin with) in an economically poor situation when at the same time you are expected to take in foreign people who have not contributed to anything to share what is left. And people have been lied about this in the EU for a long, long time. The liberal right which doesn't care about the poor being poor doesn't give a drat of course, the more low skilled labour you have means the less you have to pay for low skilled labour, and we have plenty of center-right parties in the EU who are all super fantastic and fabouls great when it comes to open borders and mass migrations make no doubt, but the left that believes immigration is a positive value on itself and cannot and should not be considered as anything but a positive seems to have a particularly hard time accepting the fact Europe really doesn't need massive numbers of young men from other cultural spheres (or anywhere) because they don't have anything to do here. This seems to be extremely difficult to reconcile with. Hence, you get opinions like "kill the rich" or "but... capitalism!" as a solution. Or posters saying Japan (famous for not taking in migrants, much less asylum seekers) is some kind of a hellhole where everyone is dead. Or that Denmark - known for being rather quick and resolute, in Nordic terms at least, in response to immigration that is expensive to Denmark - is some kind of an European Alabama or Anatolia, filled with xenophobic hitlers, while it's actually one of the most prosperous countries and regularly filled with the most happy people on Earth when someone polls them.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:31
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Ligur posted:This seems to be extremely difficult to reconcile with. Hence, you get opinions like "kill the rich" or "but... capitalism!" as a solution. Or posters saying Japan (famous for not taking in migrants, much less asylum seekers) is some kind of a hellhole where everyone is dead. Or that Denmark - known for being rather quick and resolute, in Nordic terms at least, in response to immigration that is expensive to Denmark - is some kind of an European Alabama or Anatolia, filled with xenophobic hitlers, while it's actually one of the most prosperous countries and regularly filled with the most happy people on Earth when someone polls them. Nobody said Japan was any kind of hellhole though? They just pointed out that you were wrong about Japan's super strict immigration being in any way beneficial. And the only one implying Nordic racism is you when you stop running out of bullshit to hide your xenophobia with and melt down for the 40th time. There's still a point to be made about how complicated the immigration issue is, but trying to mix in your past grudges with it is not helping. EDIT: I guess part of what makes it so complicated is you've got intelligent people on both sides of the argument making completely valid points, and in the middle assholes who are just using the situation as an excuse to be xenophobic dicks. It's an unbelievably lovely situation all around, but I still lean towards Refugees = Good, even if that makes me a bleeding-heart hippie I just can't bring myself to abandon those people no matter how valid the reasons are for doing so. EDIT2: VVV Exhibit A. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 13:39
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Yinlock posted:Nobody said Japan was any kind of hellhole though? They just pointed out that you were wrong about Japan's super strict immigration being in any way beneficial. And the only one implying Nordic racism is you when you stop running out of bullshit to hide your xenophobia with and melt down for the 40th time. Everything I said was true, like it or not, and Japan and Denmark have been called horrible shitholes and failed states in the past, even here. You are unable to make that not be by playing the hitler car 
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Jun 27, 2016 13:47
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His Divine Shadow posted:The economy isn't gonna work if people can't afford to buy stuff though, so that needs to be solved. You clearly have never been to Angola. It works, it just doesn't work for 90% of the population.
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Jun 27, 2016 14:20
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Yinlock posted:EDIT: I guess part of what makes it so complicated is you've got intelligent people on both sides of the argument making completely valid points, and in the middle assholes who are just using the situation as an excuse to be xenophobic dicks. It's an unbelievably lovely situation all around, but I still lean towards Refugees = Good, even if that makes me a bleeding-heart hippie I just can't bring myself to abandon those people no matter how valid the reasons are for doing so. You are already far superior to the traditional "bleeding-heart hippie" or liberal left winger when it comes to immigration policy for accepting both sides have intelligent people making valid points. Usually the pro-immigration group never does that. They just call everyone hitlers and figure it's settled. About those people in the midde? The assholes also include those who call everyone a xenophobic hitler at the drop of hat... that would include you in that regard. If you really do care about all the unemployed young men, women and children in countries surrounding Europe and the best way to better their lives you would probably support international policy that would dish out more money to provide them a better environment. Right now, a Finnish newspaper calculated, Sweden and Finland spend as much money catering to immigration than the UN (170+ countries) spends a year on refugees via UNCHR. Getting a single 20 year old man who "lost" his papers while being smuggled out of Turkey or Libya into the welfare system in Norway eats a lot more resources than feeding and educating 10 persons in a camp in Lebanon.
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Jun 27, 2016 14:36
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Ligur posted:Getting a single 20 year old man who "lost" his papers while being smuggled out of Turkey or Libya into the welfare system in Norway eats a lot more resources than feeding and educating 10 persons in a camp in Lebanon. That's because the food and education are poo poo, though.
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Jun 27, 2016 14:44
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Doesn't Spain have 50% youth unemployment? Why would you invite hordes of foreigners of questionable cultural and educational backgrounds instead of asking Spaniards to come to your country?
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Jun 27, 2016 15:09
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MeLKoR posted:That's because the food and education are poo poo, though. Well food, electricity, rents, and everything else costs a fraction of what it does in a Nordic country. Ergo if the Swedes, for example, wanted to save everyone in the world they would spend their money elsewhere instead of taking in 100k+ migrants a year, which recently became so expensive they apparently just slashed 60% out of their development aid to fund the housing and other necessities of foreigners saying "asylum". Moving the surplus population from developing countries to Europe does not fix anything. And in the long run, it's not promoting Good Things for Everyone. You can crash a country like Sweden easily within a year, which of course would and will never happen, but thing is if you took 100 million poor people from countries with internal ethnic and religious conflicts or just poverty wherein people live in slums and junkyards collecting plastic - a life surely a citizen of a welfare state would consider something intolerable - and planted them to Sweden, Sweden would cease to exist and whatever was left would certainly not be a welfare state. Yet that would not change anything in the global scope. Those conflict and poverty ridden countries increase their population with 100+ million each year. So then you could crash Norway next year, and nothing improved in the big picture. Then Denmark. Then Finland. Every year. And nothing would on the larger scope still change for the better. This is perhaps a complicated way of saying the poverty ridden or somehow displaced people on the globe moving to EU is not a workable solution. edit: Riso posted:Doesn't Spain have 50% youth unemployment? Nobody is inviting anyone, because it doesn't matter if people come from Spain or Bangladesh when there are no jobs to go around. Ok Merkel and the Swedes invite people! But only if they are not from the EU... Ligur fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 15:18
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Riso posted:Doesn't Spain have 50% youth unemployment? Not letting them drown in the Med isn't the same as inviting them but I'd gladly exchange portuguese reactionaries for refugees on a 1 to 2 ratio.
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Jun 27, 2016 15:20
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Riso posted:Doesn't Spain have 50% youth unemployment? Nobody did, it's called "Fortress Europe" for a reason. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a poor man to immigrate legally to Europe.
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Jun 27, 2016 15:20
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waitwhatno posted:Nobody did, it's called "Fortress Europe" for a reason. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a poor man to immigrate legally to Europe. So they just need to live in Jerusalem?
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Jun 27, 2016 15:21
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waitwhatno posted:Nobody did, it's called "Fortress Europe" for a reason. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a poor man to immigrate legally to Europe. "Refugees welcome"
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Jun 27, 2016 15:26
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Riso posted:"Refugees welcome" You would not label a larger group of people of anything because a freak minority shout out their weird beliefs 
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Jun 27, 2016 15:50
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Riso posted:"Refugees welcome" So, what's your argument then? That we should declare Spain a humanitarian disaster zone and offer Spaniards asylum? I'm not a lawyer, but I think it would be a pretty hard case to make. There hasn't even been a single cholera or black death outbreak in the last month in all of Spain!
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Jun 27, 2016 15:51
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waitwhatno posted:So, what's your argument then? That we should declare Spain a humanitarian disaster zone and offer Spaniards asylum? I'm not a lawyer, but I think it would be a pretty hard case to make. There hasn't even been a single cholera or black death outbreak in the last month in all of Spain! Spaniards are EU citizens and could just be attracted with running ads?
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Jun 27, 2016 16:02
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waitwhatno posted:So, what's your argument then? That we should declare Spain a humanitarian disaster zone and offer Spaniards asylum? I'm not a lawyer, but I think it would be a pretty hard case to make. There hasn't even been a single cholera or black death outbreak in the last month in all of Spain! He asked why would you invite "hordes of foreigners". You replied that nobody invited them. He quoted Refugees Welcome as a slogan that proves that the hordes were in fact invited.
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Jun 27, 2016 16:03
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Doctor Malaver posted:He asked why would you invite "hordes of foreigners". You replied that nobody invited them. He quoted Refugees Welcome as a slogan that proves that the hordes were in fact invited. Nobody in power. Does this even need to be said explicitly?
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Jun 27, 2016 16:13
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Doctor Malaver posted:He asked why would you invite "hordes of foreigners". You replied that nobody invited them. He quoted Refugees Welcome as a slogan that proves that the hordes were in fact invited. Are you referring to last summer, when the Merkel government said that Germany will take in all Syrian refugees that apply for asylum? That statement was made when it became clear that the living conditions in the Arab/Turkish camps had become completely unlivable and an increase in fighting activity in Syria had caused a new wave of refugees that were heading for these camps. It was an enormous humanitarian catastrophe that would have turned towards Europe sooner or later. In no way or form was there ever any invitation for immigrants to come to Europe from any government that I know of.
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Jun 27, 2016 16:15
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There is no easy answer on how to handle the refugee crisis. There's nothing that will fix everything, or cause no problems. Refugees staying in countries with weak economies and high unemployment are going to require resources allocated to them that could otherwise have been used elsewhere. Not accepting refugees would also be harmful to hundreds of thousands, utterly evil, and morally bankrupt. The only actual solution to the problem is for wars in the middle east etc. to end, but the degree to which that can be achieved in the near future after a century of western interference and imperialism is doubtful if anything. For now, the only thing we can do is help.
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Jun 27, 2016 16:44
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Puistokemisti posted:What. Do you just assume that as long as you dont see Terminator sweeping streets outside, jobs aren't being lost to automatization? And now imagine that one of the big players has a real breakthrough in processing natural language. Thats would be the beginning of the end of many of the remaing 50%.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:20
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Has the politics of accepting (or not accepting) refugees changed regarding developments in the Syrian war? In the last year or so SDF emerged as an organized and successful fighting force. It started as a proxy/cover for US to aid Kurds but it's been successfully accepting Arabs too. The point being, if two years ago it was Assad vs ISIL and there were no good guys to join, that might not be the case any more. I would assume at least some military-able refugees might reconsider returning to fight for their country.waitwhatno posted:Are you referring to last summer, when the Merkel government said that Germany will take in all Syrian refugees that apply for asylum? That statement was made when it became clear that the living conditions in the Arab/Turkish camps had become completely unlivable and an increase in fighting activity in Syria had caused a new wave of refugees that were heading for these camps. It was an enormous humanitarian catastrophe that would have turned towards Europe sooner or later. In no way or form was there ever any invitation for immigrants to come to Europe from any government that I know of. I'm not referring to anything, I was just trying to fill in the missing link in the conversation between you and Riso.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:59
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YF-23 posted:after a century of western interference and imperialism is doubtful if anything. For now, the only thing we can do is help. I'm pretty sure you noticed the "Arab Spring" to go along with Western powers droning and AGM-114 Hellfire -missile striking dictators out of power in North Africa and the Middle-East during the past decades. What great help for European unity! The US has destabilized whole regions and will probably continue doing so and people are pissed off we can't handle the refugee crisis which follows. Iraq under Saddam wasn't fun for anyone who didn't like Saddam or belong to his tribe or party, but what we have now is even more terrible. And what did the people during the Arab spring fight for? A liberal, multiparty welfare state and everyone respects the vote? Not quite. Remove a dictator that imposes his will upon other groups, and what you will get is something worse or then multiple ethnic and religious groups shooting each other in the face with AK-47s and RPG-7s. After Gaddafi, Libya became a failed state, not a welfare state. They had it actually pretty good compared to most of Africa before that. Bluntly, North Africans and Middle Easterners don't want our "liberal democacy" with voting and respecting minority rights and other poo poo. Remove a gaddafi or a saddam and you will have internecine warfare to the tune of what is happening in Libya, Iraq or Syria right now. (And an immigration crisis in the EU area to boot. Thanks Obama, to use a bit of an hyperbole.)
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Jun 27, 2016 18:09
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Ligur posted:I'm pretty sure you noticed the "Arab Spring" to go along with Western powers droning and AGM-114 Hellfire -missile striking dictators out of power in North Africa and the Middle-East during the past decades. What great help for European unity! The US has destabilized whole regions and will probably continue doing so and people are pissed off we can't handle the refugee crisis which follows. Iraq under Saddam wasn't fun for anyone who didn't like Saddam or belong to his tribe or party, but what we have now is even more terrible. The inscrutable monolithic swarthy North-African Arabian Muslim psyche, yes, yase.....
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Jun 27, 2016 18:11
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Nektu posted:And now imagine that one of the big players has a real breakthrough in processing natural language. Thats would be the beginning of the end of many of the remaing 50%. Meet IBM's Watson. Their technology is slowly making inroads replacing a lot of secretaries and clerks.
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Jun 27, 2016 18:12
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This is always fun to do: "And what did the people during the German revolution fight for? A liberal, multiparty welfare state and everyone respects the vote? Not quite. Remove an emperor that imposes his will upon other groups, and what you will get is something worse or then multiple political and national groups shooting each other in the face with Mauser and Flammenwerfer. After Wilhelm, Germany became a failed state, not a welfare state. They had it actually pretty good compared to most of Europe before that. Bluntly, Germans and Austrians don't want our "liberal democacy" with voting and respecting minority rights and other poo poo. Remove a Wilhelm or a Franz Joseph and you will have internecine warfare to the tune of what is happening in Germany, Austria or Russia right now. (And an immigration crisis in the Entente area to boot. Thanks Wilson, to use a bit of an hyperbole.) "
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Jun 27, 2016 18:29
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waitwhatno posted:This is always fun to do:
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Jun 27, 2016 18:31
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Guess what dude? This thread basically proves that assertion right; Germans never became civilized, their sole want is to dominate. We behaved perfectly fine from ~1970 up until the 2+4 treaty. It's really not our fault that you gave us back the East, like idiots. That's when it all went downhill for all of us.
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Jun 27, 2016 18:42
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waitwhatno posted:We behaved perfectly fine from ~1970 up until the 2+4 treaty. It's really not our fault that you gave us back the East, like idiots. That's when it all went downhill for all of us.
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Jun 27, 2016 18:44
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Are you saying Thatcher was right? I wouldn't go that far. But if there had been a politician with the same objections to reunification as Thatcher, but who wasn't Thatcher, then yeah, that person would have been right.
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Jun 27, 2016 18:48
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Are you saying Thatcher was right? It's a broken clock kind of thing. Twice a decade.
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Jun 27, 2016 18:50
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Doctor Malaver posted:Has the politics of accepting (or not accepting) refugees changed regarding developments in the Syrian war? In the last year or so SDF emerged as an organized and successful fighting force. It started as a proxy/cover for US to aid Kurds but it's been successfully accepting Arabs too. The point being, if two years ago it was Assad vs ISIL and there were no good guys to join, that might not be the case any more. I would assume at least some military-able refugees might reconsider returning to fight for their country. No. Turkey and Lebanon act as a buffer anyway. The refugees stay there for a while until they realize they cannot build a future there. If they are lucky they get to do appalling work at maybe 50% of what a local would make and their children hardly get any schooling. Western Europe offers unemployment benefits that are higher than Turkey's average wage, free housing and free university to anyone who can make a reasonable case he's Syrian. They have long since given up on Syria and just want what is best for their future. you feelin fucky fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jun 27, 2016 |
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Jun 27, 2016 18:55
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Ligur posted:I'm pretty sure you noticed the "Arab Spring" to go along with Western powers droning and AGM-114 Hellfire -missile striking dictators out of power in North Africa and the Middle-East during the past decades. What great help for European unity! The US has destabilized whole regions and will probably continue doing so and people are pissed off we can't handle the refugee crisis which follows. Iraq under Saddam wasn't fun for anyone who didn't like Saddam or belong to his tribe or party, but what we have now is even more terrible. Are you saying the Arab Spring was a nefarious plot of the USA? Also, Tunisia.
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Jun 27, 2016 22:28
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No.
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Jun 27, 2016 23:39
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It just entered my conscience that if Scotland leaves the UK to join the EU that's going to drive the really hardcore English absolutely nuts. The EU is never going to live down "they took Scotland from us  ". An English rump state is going to be a wonderful pit of political insanity.e: I love that Putin is keeping absolutely silent about all this. Never interrupt your enemies when they are loving themselves. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jun 28, 2016 |
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Jun 28, 2016 02:31
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YF-23 posted:There is no easy answer on how to handle the refugee crisis. There's nothing that will fix everything, or cause no problems. Refugees staying in countries with weak economies and high unemployment are going to require resources allocated to them that could otherwise have been used elsewhere. Not accepting refugees would also be harmful to hundreds of thousands, utterly evil, and morally bankrupt. This is a good statement but "help" needs to be sustainable and not to the detriment of the countries providing said help. There is no endless supply of anything in this universe. I supported Merkel's enthusiastic offers of asylum but was gobsmacked to learn that there was no real plan other than good intentions. What will continue to happen is what is currently happening. EU member states close their borders and accept quotas. Something that should have been done from the start instead of floods of refugees going wherever they want. Systems need to be in place to genuine train refugees and deport economic migrants. If there was an actual plan for all EU countries to take a quota and adequate resourcing was accounted for, this mass migration issue is doable. Until an actual plan is organised and agreed to, the mass migration of refugees to random countries will hurt not only the refugees but the european people to the extent that all countries end up rejecting all refugees.
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Jun 28, 2016 02:50
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Baxta posted:This is a good statement but "help" needs to be sustainable and not to the detriment of the countries providing said help. There is no endless supply of anything in this universe. I supported Merkel's enthusiastic offers of asylum but was gobsmacked to learn that there was no real plan other than good intentions. What will continue to happen is what is currently happening. EU member states close their borders and accept quotas. Something that should have been done from the start instead of floods of refugees going wherever they want. Systems need to be in place to genuine train refugees and deport economic migrants.  Taking in refugees=good, but for humanitarian reasons and not because extra jobseekers will magically make Are
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Jun 28, 2016 07:59
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Baxta posted:This is a good statement but "help" needs to be sustainable and not to the detriment of the countries providing said help. There is no endless supply of anything in this universe. I supported Merkel's enthusiastic offers of asylum but was gobsmacked to learn that there was no real plan other than good intentions. What will continue to happen is what is currently happening. EU member states close their borders and accept quotas. Something that should have been done from the start instead of floods of refugees going wherever they want. Systems need to be in place to genuine train refugees and deport economic migrants. There are lot of problems with these statements. - First of all, Europe was totally surprised by the refugee flood. It's fair to say that our politicians hosed up in a huge way by not seeing it coming and not preventing it from occurring in the first place, but by that point the horse was already out of the barn. I'm not even sure if there was a way to hold/close the borders, without shooting at people. Police was totally helpless in most situations and it was all damage control at that point. - The systems to deport opportunists who want to ride the wave of refugees for immigration purposes can only be improved so much. We hired a lot of new workers to process the asylum applications, but it takes time to train them. And situations like people throwing away their passports or their home countries not wanting to take them back are problem with no easy solution. You can't just "put a system in place" over night, while the people are starving and rioting at the border, it's not that simple. - Training, at least in Germany, is pretty decent. People get free language courses, coupons for social activities, education opportunities etc. But there is really only so much that the government can do, it can't teach you a trade or hand you a job. Integration is a complex problem, has always been. There will never be a good system in place to solve it, certainly not overnight. - There was never, ever going to be a European plan to deal with the refugees. Countries like Poland would rather salt all the earth, burn down every forest and boil every sea before they would take in darkies, in any nonsymbolic numbers. That's probably one of the reasons why Germany went ahead solo. I'm reasonably sure that if they hadn't acted the whole situation would have turned out much worse(at the very least for the Middle East, probably for Europe too) It's a poo poo situation, everyone knows it. The question is, what could have realistically been done better? Ultimately we screwed ourselves by ignoring the humanitarian crisis in the Middle East for so long, just as we are screwing ourselves by ignoring it in North Africa and other places right now.
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Jun 28, 2016 11:12
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MeLKoR posted:It just entered my conscience that if Scotland leaves the UK to join the EU that's going to drive the really hardcore English absolutely nuts. The EU is never going to live down "they took Scotland from us The 'hardcore English' want Scotland to achieve independence.
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Jun 28, 2016 11:21
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Pissflaps posted:The 'hardcore English' want Scotland to achieve independence. Good. Little England can become Europe's hermit kingdom, a living embodiment of what it means to be a regressive isolationist shithole in the 21st century.
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Jun 28, 2016 11:27
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blowfish posted:Good. Little England can become Europe's hermit kingdom, a living embodiment of what it means to be a regressive isolationist shithole in the 21st century. This tone plays into the hands of Nationalists in the UK and other countries.
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Jun 28, 2016 11:28
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