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Popular Thug Drink posted:generally serving the public interest rather than vigorously enforcing rules at the expense of public safety. eric garner died because the police grappled with him because he stood up for himself. why not back off instead of fight a guy? because his life was not as important in the mind of that cop than the idea that the police must always be obeyed and compliance comes above civic safety. or tamir rice, who was shot for basically no reason other than an unqualified cop was scared shitless of a black shooter, a mortal threat to the community that only existed in the cop's tiny imagination Let's not also forget that the police have been increasingly tasked with duties beyond their pay grade, as they now act as our primary intermediary between the mentally ill and the public as well as being a new form of collection agent for the state since the current tax codes have shifted the burden away from the wealthy and onto the public that can't afford to contest fines/charges to make up that budgetary shortfall. Essentially the police force has become designed to enforce rather than serve the public good, let alone the clearly cultural issues going on within the world of law enforcement.
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Jul 7, 2016 07:36
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Ender.uNF posted:If the NRA were smart they'd take up his case with a rallying cry of "protect our right to concealed carry". I agree with you, and of course it shows what the NRA is really about because this would be a public relations coup for them. Actually I just thought of something. If Trump criticizes the police in this case (he's a big concealed carry fan after all, and just random enough to do it) then the NRA will too.
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Jul 7, 2016 07:36
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Potato Jones posted:But then how will they stop the BAD GUYS? BAD GUYS are known to hunt in packs. So do cops! And hell how about we throw in that each cop gets one free shooting, which can be a spree if he wants, THEN he has to retire! 
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Jul 7, 2016 07:37
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SedanChair posted:I agree with you, and of course it shows what the NRA is really about because this would be a public relations coup for them. How would getting involved in an execution of a black man increase gun revenue?
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Jul 7, 2016 07:39
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vorebane posted:how about we throw in that each cop gets one free shooting, which can be a spree if he wants, THEN he has to retire! Edit: Ugh, sorry, I'm just mad about poo poo. Potato Jones fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 07:42
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Potato Jones posted:No fair, that should apply to both teams. I'm looking forward to the Cell Phone Bowl HEROES versus BAD GUYS. Totally fair, poo poo is loving monstrous, and we don't even have the stats to have any kind of clue how loving monstrous it is.
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Jul 7, 2016 07:54
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DemeaninDemon posted:How would getting involved in an execution of a black man increase gun revenue? Hard to say (I think I could spin it), but they have to find a way to agree with whatever Trump says. So if he says it, they'll say it.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:01
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Seems pretty reasonable to point out that the cop shooting the CCW dude was himself failed by the institution. He's derailed out of his mind, and it'd be a pretty tough sell to say that that is what he intended and wanted to do.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:06
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Police officers should serve the public trust, protect the innocent and uphold the law in that order.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:06
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vorebane posted:Maybe this is a dumb idea but I feel like a very simple, easy to understand policy would be easiest to advocate for and since it's basically impossible to pass anything, the easy broad policy is what has to be worked for. vorebane posted:Totally fair, poo poo is loving monstrous, and we don't even have the stats to have any kind of clue how loving monstrous it is.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:21
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SedanChair posted:I agree with you, and of course it shows what the NRA is really about because this would be a public relations coup for them. The NRA didn't say poo poo when a white dude killed a bunch of kindergarten kids. You REALLY think they are going to take up the mantle for a black person in any capacity ever?
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Jul 7, 2016 08:23
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's dumb because people shouldn't be punished if they didn't do anything wrong. "Well, someone is dead, so someone else must suffer" is like some Babylonian level poo poo that I'd hope we've moved past in the last 3800 or so years. You can argue that it isn't a punishment, but if you're going to pay out the remaining term of an officer's salary and pension if he shoots someone, you might end up creating a bit of a perverse incentive. It's not a punishment, you just got your one time. Since the courts will seldom convict you and you have impunity over the life and death of citizens, we're well past airy concepts of fairness in any case. There needs to be something to make police feel like there are consequences to taking lives. gfsincere posted:The NRA didn't say poo poo when a white dude killed a bunch of kindergarten kids. You REALLY think they are going to take up the mantle for a black person in any capacity ever? What? What were they supposed to say about Sandy Hook? That doesn't fit their narrative at all. If a white man with a CCW was killed under these circumstances they'd raise holy hell, so they could do the same in this case and look progressive to boot. They won't because the majority of their base is made up of virulent racists, but if they actually were interested in broadening their political and demographic appeal they would do it and it would be a big win for them. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 08:27
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's dumb because people shouldn't be punished if they didn't do anything wrong. "Well, someone is dead, so someone else must suffer" is like some Babylonian level poo poo that I'd hope we've moved past in the last 3800 or so years. You can argue that it isn't a punishment, but if you're going to pay out the remaining term of an officer's salary and pension if he shoots someone, you might end up creating a bit of a perverse incentive. At this point Babylonian level poo poo would be a significant upgrade from what some people might otherwise expect to get from the American judicial system.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:29
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SedanChair posted:It's not a punishment, you just got your one time.  at someone saying that losing your primary means of income and health insurance isn't a punishment in a thread where people were just complaining about wage stagnation and the injustice of having to repay student loans.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:35
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's dumb because people shouldn't be punished if they didn't do anything wrong. "Well, someone is dead, so someone else must suffer"
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Jul 7, 2016 08:37
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Plenty of cops can kill not only justifiably but also in such ways that it is absolutely needed.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:37
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Dead Reckoning posted:
I guess we have to start talking to cops like we do little kids, even though they have the unchecked power over life and death: it's not a punishment, it's a consequence. And if a cop is so dumb that "cop" is the only thing they can do, they shouldn't be a cop.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:38
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Dead Reckoning posted:
Ah yes, those poor, oppressed white police officers with the power of life and death over the black community. Won't anybody think of the white, government-sanctioned murderers of black civilians? We need more policies and rules directed at making police officers view violence as the means of last resort, not the path of least resistance. Like goddamn I don't actually even think this policy is a good idea for practical and logistical reasons, when we can't even go hours without white police murdering black people in the streets for no reason, I'd take a bad policy over nothing.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:39
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$32k is not very much student loan debt imo. But I only say that because that's almost exactly how much I have left in principal balance right now after just shy of a decade of paying ~$850/month.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:40
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Lightning Knight posted:Like goddamn I don't actually even think this policy is a good idea for practical and logistical reasons, when we can't even go hours without white police murdering black people in the streets for no reason, I'd take a bad policy over nothing. Between this and the no-fly list thing, I'm starting to notice a disconcerting pattern in USPol.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:43
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Grognan posted:But I paid it off when they actually paid decent wages to people, they should just suffer. This is pragmatic, right? "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."
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Jul 7, 2016 08:46
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gradenko_2000 posted:Between this and the no-fly list thing, I'm starting to notice a disconcerting pattern in USPol. Frankly the no fly list thing passing would've been hilarious because it would've put the no-fly list on the chopping block for potential Supreme Court judgement against a future liberal court. All the people who are against the no fly list should've been for it, because it would've dragged that poo poo out into the open. As for this, no, there's no actual practical world where I would support that policy. I'm just angry. Literally the government has sanctioned agents of the state executing civilians in the street for being the wrong skin tone and the white response at best is "well gosh that's rather unpleasant, too bad we can't do anything about it, nothing to see here move along now."
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Jul 7, 2016 08:46
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Potato Jones posted:Do you see these instances as spontaneous deaths? Lightning Knight posted:Ah yes, those poor, oppressed white police officers with the power of life and death over the black community. Won't anybody think of the white, government-sanctioned murderers of black civilians? SedanChair posted:I guess we have to start talking to cops like we do little kids, even though they have the unchecked power over life and death: it's not a punishment, it's a consequence. And if a cop is so dumb that "cop" is the only thing they can do, they shouldn't be a cop.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:50
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm not arguing for or against punishment in any specific set of circumstances, I'm arguing against the idiotic notion put forward by vorebane that, because bad thing X happened, someone must be punished. I'm also not clear on which "these instances" you're referring to. Yes, we already know you don't care about the lives of black people, you've made that abundantly clear. A cop kills a black man, and you're on the scene to make sure that the important thing is done: telling people who're upset that a black person was extrajudicially killed that they're the truly dangerous ones
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Jul 7, 2016 08:54
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Lightning Knight posted:Frankly the no fly list thing passing would've been hilarious because it would've put the no-fly list on the chopping block for potential Supreme Court judgement against a future liberal court. All the people who are against the no fly list should've been for it, because it would've dragged that poo poo out into the open. I agree with you - certain recent events have been infuriating and depressing, and I am, to say the least, disappointed that people feel more and more like they need to go with "whatever can be passed, precedent be damned" or hoping that it's actually some form of 11th-dimensional chess to get actually good legislation passed. Because good legislation is so difficult to pass nowadays.
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Jul 7, 2016 08:54
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Dead Reckoning posted:I care more about consistent rules and laws, and not setting precedent by enshrining bad ideas in law, than I do about indulging the feeling that "something must be done." The former are far more damaging in the long run than the latter. Which is a wonderful luxury I'm sure those of us who don't need to worry about being gunned down in the street very much appreciate. In the mean time, you know, gently caress all those sorry saps who get murdered by police, must be tough, being born the wrong skin color and whatnot. gradenko_2000 posted:I agree with you - certain recent events have been infuriating and depressing, and I am, to say the least, disappointed that people feel more and more like they need to go with "whatever can be passed, precedent be damned" or hoping that it's actually some form of 11th-dimensional chess to get actually good legislation passed. Yeah, I just... I grew up a privileged white suburban kid, but my dad is from Mexico and as I grow older I am increasingly aware of how wrong everything about my upbringing was, and how wrong everything about how we handle race in this country is. I was a career scout, made Eagle. A lot of my friends are cops or trying to become cops. And they're real nice people. Every time one of these headlines comes up I'm afraid it's one of them who did it. And it keeps me up at night to know that if I ever take a trip to the wrong state, I could be one of the people the police killed for no reason, given my tan skin and Hispanic first and last name. And further it's actually horrifying to see my Facebook, full of other privileged white people, light up after every incident with people saying plithy bullshit like "guns don't kill people...," "he was no angel," blah blah blah loving Fox News drones. Listening to my white girlfriend's family casually discuss Obama's Muslim Kenyanness like it's no big deal. I feel increasingly alienated every day with the culture I grew up in and stuff like this is frankly stomach-turning to me. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 08:55
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm also not clear on which "these instances" you're referring to. Dead Reckoning posted:I care more about consistent rules and laws, and not setting precedent by enshrining bad ideas in law, than I do about indulging the feeling that "something must be done." The former are far more damaging in the long run than the latter. Edit: upon rereading this quote, you're also saying that the former, consistent rules and laws, are more damaging than the latter, enshrining bad ideas in law/indulging feelings "something must be done". Refine your statements. Potato Jones fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 08:58
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Lemming posted:Yes, we already know you don't care about the lives of black people, you've made that abundantly clear. A cop kills a black man, and you're on the scene to make sure that the important thing is done: telling people who're upset that a black person was extrajudicially killed that they're the truly dangerous ones Lightning Knight posted:Which is a wonderful luxury I'm sure those of us who don't need to worry about being gunned down in the street very much appreciate. Sorry conversations with your GF's family are uncomfortable for you. Potato Jones posted:Agree or disagree: murder has no consequence. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 08:59
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't understand the question.
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Jul 7, 2016 09:04
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Dead Reckoning posted:Not agreeing with bad ideas put forward by people who feel a strong emotional reaction to a news story isn't racism, and it's a little hosed up that you're trying to conflate the two. The vast majority of the time that you slither out of your hole is when a cop does something bad and you feel the need to step in and declare that actually, it's fine and anybody who's upset about it is just being an idiot and has stupid ideas. You don't make any effort to offer constructive ideas about what you think could be done or how things could be changed (and you obviously could, since you clearly do have a good understanding of how things work), you just get some sort of perverse glee out of telling people who are upset that black people keep getting killed by cops that they're stupid and cops are actually great.
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Jul 7, 2016 09:04
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Potato Jones posted:Edit: upon rereading this quote, you're also saying that the former, consistent rules and laws, are more damaging than the latter, enshrining bad ideas in law. Refine your statements.
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Jul 7, 2016 09:06
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Dead Reckoning posted:Having an internally consistent set of laws isn't so much a luxury as the basis of civilization. Do you have an idea for how to reduce the rate at which our white police murders non-white civilians, or are you content to tell us that our ideas are bad and doing nothing would be preferable? Actually, refer to this better written version: Lemming posted:The vast majority of the time that you slither out of your hole is when a cop does something bad and you feel the need to step in and declare that actually, it's fine and anybody who's upset about it is just being an idiot and has stupid ideas. You don't make any effort to offer constructive ideas about what you think could be done or how things could be changed (and you obviously could, since you clearly do have a good understanding of how things work), you just get some sort of perverse glee out of telling people who are upset that black people keep getting killed by cops that they're stupid and cops are actually great.
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Jul 7, 2016 09:08
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Dead Reckoning posted:"Creating exceptions to the normal process of law based on emotional appeals or enshrining legal practices contrary to justice in order to achieve a desired result is worse than feeling bad about the status quo."
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Jul 7, 2016 09:14
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Your new avatar makes your ad homs adorable. Have you considered the possibility that the problem you seem concerned about is a multifaceted one not amenable to easy or emotionally satisfying solutions?Lightning Knight posted:Do you have an idea for how to reduce the rate at which our white police murders non-white civilians, or are you content to tell us that our ideas are bad and doing nothing would be preferable? Potato Jones posted:Broken down, this statement reads as justice == status quo, which is a standard we should all strive towards. Under that assumption, what is the status quo's ruling on whether it is good or bad to kill someone?
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Jul 7, 2016 09:40
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Dead Reckoning posted:If you're talking about the "status quo" being the American legal system, good and bad don't enter into it. Killing someone is generally illegal, but there are certain circumstances in which it is not. The act of killing someone isn't inherently "good" or "bad." Dead Reckoning posted:I care more about consistent rules and laws, and not setting precedent by enshrining bad ideas in law,
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Jul 7, 2016 09:45
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Dead Reckoning posted:The act of killing someone isn't inherently "good" or "bad." (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 7, 2016 09:47
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Alright Dead Reckoning enough. Where do you stand on this issue? Our opinion is simple; the police, in our opinion, are using an excessive amount of force and end up killing the suspects they detain. Do you consider this a fact? We, both SA and a good chunk of society, consider this unacceptable. Which is close enough to constitute a crime. Do you agree with this? Many people consider this to be manslaughter at best, and murder at worst. Do you fall in between either of these two poles? Crimes, should be punished. This is not Babylonian, this is human. It's been like this since time immemorial. I will not argue this, this is fact. Punishment should fit the crime. It should apply to everyone, cops included. Do you agree with this? Because everything past this point is you quibbling about insignificant details ("They do this out of emotional response to the news!"). Our problem is that the police are causing deaths that any non-biased, reasonable person finds wrong. This is a broad-scope problem. Or do you have another take on it?
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Jul 7, 2016 09:49
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Good to know its white people like Dead Reckoning that are fighting the good fight to do absolutely nothing and keep things as they are meanwhile I'm at risk of getting gunned down because a cop doesn't like me being all black in public. Also, to be quite honest, gently caress any of the solutions that the average white person comes up with, because chances are they don't fully grasp the severity of the problem in the first place.
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Jul 7, 2016 10:08
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Pretty sure you don't get shot if you don't resist arrest.
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Jul 7, 2016 10:16
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the_homemaster posted:Pretty sure you don't get shot if you don't resist arrest. What constitutes 'resisting arrest' in your view? And since when is the punishment for resisting arrest a death sentence?
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Jul 7, 2016 10:20
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