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idk maybe those doctors were part of a huge jewish conspiracy to make him look like a crazy old man
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Aug 1, 2016 22:42
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StoneOfShame posted:The war was a more pressing problem? Stalin started being Stalin, Undisputed Leader of the USSR in 1928. The war began for the USSR in 1941. That's 13 years of which pogoms could have been organised but weren't. He could have even used the war as an excuse, had he wanted. He could have span it as "Hitler is invading to get the jews, the jews have brought this on us!" and had them all rounded up and gassed right during the war. He did not. Come on now, critical thinking please. Start with known facts, work towards a conclusion. Don't start with a preconceived idea and attempt to justify it, that's backwards.
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Aug 1, 2016 22:45
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If you want to get a feel for what a stupid, lying bag of poo poo Stalin was just go read some of his writings (actually don't it's all trash). There's a bit in Anarchism or Socialism where he's like "The anarchists say that the dictatorship of the proletariat will be a police state full of spies and gendarmes! We utterly repudiate this slander!!" loving Stalin of all people.
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Aug 1, 2016 22:46
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HorseLord posted:You're trying to delegitimise the efforts of the party and government, of communists generally, in the fight against racism. You are doing this in a conversation where liberal ideology was praised as superior because liberal countries had governments racist enough to inspire resistance against it, while socialist countries who's governments actually made an effort to fight racism are considered inferior because there was nothing to cause an anti-racist rebellion against. I would like to know why, in such a conversation, you would pick the really loving stupid side to be on. Rather than picking a side at all I'd much prefer to reject false dichotomies altogether. The recognition of capitalism and imperialism's historic crimes need not absolve those of the soviet empire. While the soviet union did much that was laudable, the actual breadth and depth of soviet commitments to racial and gender equality were always somewhat dubious and fueled at least in part by a pragmatic desire to support sympathetic movements in the third world. HorseLord posted:Since the Stalin poo poo is starting again I should pose a question. If the rise in antisemitism experienced in the postwar USSR was down to Stalin how come he didn't get around to that earlier? I mean, dude was paramount leader since the late 1920s. Seems a bit odd he waited two decades and a massive war before doing anything. Post-war soviet jews having a valid alternative to living in the soviet union might have had something to do with it. Intensifying antisemitic policies to crack down on the bourgeois zionists and prevent them from making a mass exodus from the country (which would no doubt discredit the USSR in the eyes of the world) makes a bit of sense in context.
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Aug 1, 2016 22:49
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stalin was a bad man
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Aug 1, 2016 22:50
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HorseLord posted:Stalin started being Stalin, Undisputed Leader of the USSR in 1928. The war began for the USSR in 1941. That's 13 years of which pogoms could have been organised but weren't. He could have even used the war as an excuse, had he wanted. He could have span it as "Hitler is invading to get the jews, the jews have brought this on us!" and had them all rounded up and gassed right during the war. He did not. stalin had like 20m people killed you gently caress
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Aug 1, 2016 22:53
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Jose posted:stalin had like 20m people killed you gently caress
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Aug 1, 2016 22:55
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Seaside Loafer posted:why did he do all that anyway, seemed liked he was pretty much in charge already XMNN posted:stalin was a bad man
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Aug 1, 2016 22:59
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HorseLord posted:The war began for the USSR in 1941. It's *so* easy to forget the invasion of Poland in September 1939, isn't it?
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Aug 1, 2016 23:00
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yeah but everyone likes poets and teachers dont they. well maybe not poets
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Aug 1, 2016 23:00
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TomViolence posted:Rather than picking a side at all I'd much prefer to reject false dichotomies altogether. The recognition of capitalism and imperialism's historic crimes need not absolve those of the soviet empire. While the soviet union did much that was laudable, the actual breadth and depth of soviet commitments to racial and gender equality were always somewhat dubious and fueled at least in part by a pragmatic desire to support sympathetic movements in the third world. That's interesting because actually no. Soviet antiracism comes from the fact the founders were anti-racists of many different nationalities, who grew up, lived and fought in one multinational state and created another. I'll leave your crank theories about a soviet "empire" alone. TomViolence posted:Post-war soviet jews having a valid alternative to living in the soviet union might have had something to do with it. Intensifying antisemitic policies to crack down on the bourgeois zionists and prevent them from making a mass exodus from the country (which would no doubt discredit the USSR in the eyes of the world) makes a bit of sense in context. That's interesting, you're saying that they wanted to keep the jews so they were anti-semetic to them. drat, I guess that when they were doing all the really pro-semetic poo poo in the 1930s they were trying to get them to leave. ...Or, the rise in antisemitism in postwar soviet society is an aftershock from a recent huge war where jews were attacked and scapegoated, one which Anti-Semites within the soviet union used to incite resentment and blame against jews. It could be that.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:00
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Jose posted:the british teams Why?
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Aug 1, 2016 23:10
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HorseLord posted:Stalin started being Stalin, Undisputed Leader of the USSR in 1928. The war began for the USSR in 1941. That's 13 years of which pogoms could have been organised but weren't. He could have even used the war as an excuse, had he wanted. He could have span it as "Hitler is invading to get the jews, the jews have brought this on us!" and had them all rounded up and gassed right during the war. He did not. I actually don't know enough about anti semitism in the USSR to give a full description of it I was offering a possible reason. What you ignored was the main part of what I said and you keep ignoring which was Stalin was a mass murderer and sent poo poo loads of people to gulags. Please justify this instead of doing what you normally do either just say it didn't happen with no actual evidence or say but the USA does it to, use the critical thinking you so desire as what you normally do is exactly what you accuse other people of doing except you are coming from the position of being a Stalinist and a colossal moron.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:11
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Is this guy bigging up Stalin of all people?
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Aug 1, 2016 23:12
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Stalin's ussr is a pretty good example of how not to do communism
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Aug 1, 2016 23:13
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Namtab posted:Is this guy bigging up Stalin of all people? I think maybe he has a moustache fetish.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:15
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StoneOfShame posted:I actually don't know enough about anti semitism in the USSR to give a full description of it I was offering a possible reason. What you ignored was the main part of what I said and you keep ignoring which was Stalin was a mass murderer and sent poo poo loads of people to gulags. Please justify this instead of doing what you normally do either just say it didn't happen with no actual evidence or say but the USA does it to, use the critical thinking you so desire as what you normally do is exactly what you accuse other people of doing except you are coming from the position of being a Stalinist and a colossal moron. Well my first bit of critical thinking is: How come everyone who makes the mass murderer claims uses a different death toll? It's always a big multi millions number, but it's never the same one. I've heard everything from 20, to 50, to 100 Million dead. The second bit of critical thinking is how would any of those figures fit within known Soviet demographics, what would the birth rate even have to be? My third bit of critical thinking is, why do you think proper practice in a debate is to go "uh well I don't actually know anything about the subject, BUTANYWAYHERE'SANOTHERTHING bet you can't handle that, huh"? Be honest, you bring up death tolls and gulags in order to bail out from antisemitism into a subject of your choice that you think you might fare better with. Otherwise you would not have brought any other subject up. My fourth bit is wondering why you think I'd even care that people went to gulags. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 23:22
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HorseLord posted:That's interesting because actually no. Soviet antiracism comes from the fact the founders were anti-racists of many different nationalities, who grew up, lived and fought in one multinational state and created another. I'll leave your crank theories about a soviet "empire" alone. The "multinational state" they "created" was literally just a rebranded Russian empire and in the process of establishing this workers' paradise they fought together against not just the counter-revolutionary whites, but also against national liberation movements, peasants concerned chiefly with protecting themselves and their communities and, let's not forget, insurrectionary anarchists. The reason I call the Soviet Union an empire is because it inherited both the borders and the geopolitical priorities of the empire that preceded it and proceeded over the next 30 years to act on those interests by subjugating most of eastern europe and brutally clamping down on all domestic dissent. Not only that, but through purges, famines and population transfers it waged campaigns of ethnic cleansing against its own citizens, including but by no means limited to ethnic germans, jews and ukrainians. The USSR was absolutely an empire and just like the US it did everything it could to deny that obvious fact. HorseLord posted:That's interesting, you're saying that they wanted to keep the jews so they were anti-semetic to them. drat, I guess that when they were doing all the really pro-semetic poo poo in the 1930s they were trying to get them to leave. Soviet antisemitism, at least where it manifested as a matter of discriminatory policy, concerned issues such as language and freedom of movement. Yiddish was encouraged instead of hebrew and jews were prevented from leaving the country and in many cases from moving freely within the USSR as well. So yeah, it's not a stretch to imagine these having something to do with the new Jewish nation everyone was talking about and the threat to the USSR's social cohesion and supposed internationalist character that posed.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:26
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Namtab posted:Is this guy bigging up Stalin of all people? Hope is a lie, Comrad Stalbyn shall found the promised land in Shitterton, Dorset
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Aug 1, 2016 23:29
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HorseLord posted:Well my first bit of critical thinking is: How come everyone who makes the mass murderer claims uses a different death toll? It's always a big multi millions number, but it's never the same one. I've heard everything from 20, to 50, to 100 Million dead. The second bit of critical thinking is how would any of those figures fit within known Soviet demographics, what would the birth rate even have to be? Assuming we're talking about the Holodomor. Death tolls from famines are notoriously difficult to estimate. One fairly usual methodology is to extrapolate a "target" population from averaging our pre-famine population growth rates, and then assuming that anybody "missing" from the target number after the famine had died of starvation (as opposed to emigrated, or looking at a lowered birth rate owing to malnutrition). This methodology may produce inconsistent or impossible numbers when compared against other objective data, and probably overestimates death tolls - but that doesn't function as evidence that a famine never occurred. If your argument that varying and inconsistent death tolls is evidence that the Holodmor never occurred you're going to have to throw a lot of (dead) babies out with the bathwater, including (but not limited to) the Irish Famines.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:30
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El Grillo posted:I've been reading these threads for all of like two days and I'm unsurprised at this turn of events. Don't get the wrong impression please. Horselord is a special case, as he comprises fully one-fifth of the membership of the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist), and is thus wrong about everything but from a novel, exciting and radically left wing, anti-revisionist direction.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:32
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HorseLord posted:Well my first bit of critical thinking is: How come everyone who makes the mass murderer claims uses a different death toll?
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Aug 1, 2016 23:33
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Any argument that starts with "If I may defend Stalin for a moment..." probably isn't going to go well.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:33
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HorseLord posted:My fourth bit is wondering why you think I'd even care that people went to gulags. Yeah man! gently caress the Old Bolsheviks - what did they ever do for the revol- oh wait no, poo poo.....
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Aug 1, 2016 23:33
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I don't think Stalin was any more antisemitic than his contemporaries or martin amis would have mentioned it during his russian phase
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Aug 1, 2016 23:34
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TomViolence posted:The "multinational state" they "created" was literally just a rebranded Russian empire TomViolence posted:Soviet antisemitism, at least where it manifested as a matter of discriminatory policy, concerned issues such as language and freedom of movement. Yiddish was encouraged instead of hebrew So now you say that it's antisemitic to encourage the native language of Jews. You're just saying rubbish now. You can love your liberalism and the true progressive goodness of cops shooting black people and getting vacations for it or whatever. But talking to you is a waste of time.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:37
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And then you have the question of how far was Stalin responsible for the Holodomor. If it's just negligence and uncaring, then Queen Victoria is equally responsible for the deaths due to the Irish Famine. You've still got all the purge and gulag deaths though, so even then Stalin faces a pretty high number.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:38
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tooterfish posted:Because they're estimates you wretched loving oval office? If your estimates are -/+ 70 Million people having actually existed in living memory or not they're poo poo mate. Oberleutnant posted:Assuming we're talking about the Holodomor. Death tolls from famines are notoriously difficult to estimate. One fairly usual methodology is to extrapolate a "target" population from averaging our pre-famine population growth rates, and then assuming that anybody "missing" from the target number after the famine had died of starvation (as opposed to emigrated, or looking at a lowered birth rate owing to malnutrition). This methodology may produce inconsistent or impossible numbers when compared against other objective data, and probably overestimates death tolls - but that doesn't function as evidence that a famine never occurred. That's good then because nobody actually ever says there wasn't a famine in the Soviet Union in the early 1930s.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:38
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HorseLord posted:If your estimates are -/+ 70 Million people having actually existed in living memory or not they're poo poo mate.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:42
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tooterfish posted:Do any of the estimates say 0? I've been confronted by people who claim 100 Million. You can do maths, what's 100 - 70? Hell, I was once told by a very angry man that Stalin killed 150 Million people, which would leave what, 15 million left in the entire USSR?
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Aug 1, 2016 23:44
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Stalin looks like he put loads of gel in his hair like a big poseur while Trotsky just let it go wild in the most fantastic jewfro known to man
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Aug 1, 2016 23:45
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HorseLord posted:Well my first bit of critical thinking is: How come everyone who makes the mass murderer claims uses a different death toll? It's always a big multi millions number, but it's never the same one. I've heard everything from 20, to 50, to 100 Million dead. The second bit of critical thinking is how would any of those figures fit within known Soviet demographics, what would the birth rate even have to be? You're actually dense aren't you? The moving onto something else was because you talking about a single aspect of Soviet Russia has to be taken in the context of you being a full on Stalinist propagandist so you should be challenged on all aspects of your stupidity. Estimates for all genocides in history vary wildly therefore the holocaust didn't happen and neither did Cambodia's killing fields. I thought you would care about people going to gulags because I made the mistake of assuming you had a shred of humanity to you but you obviously dont.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:46
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The rules on what can and can't be said by organisations outside of the IOC's sponsorship circle (Rule 40) are convoluted and ridiculous. The threat is that they punish a named athlete or in some way interfere with the institution/company posting, either through threats to pull existing contracts or in the courts. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-36915565 The only thing scarier to the IOC than drugged up Russians is Paddy Power boxers. During the 2012 Olympics the example given was that a tanning salon with a 'get bronze for the summer' ad would have been in breach.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:46
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HorseLord posted:I've been confronted by people who claim 100 Million. You can do maths, what's 100 - 70? So you accept that Stalin was a genocidal bastard, and you're completely fine with that.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:50
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Total Meatlove posted:The rules on what can and can't be said by organisations outside of the IOC's sponsorship circle (Rule 40) are convoluted and ridiculous. The threat is that they punish a named athlete or in some way interfere with the institution/company posting, either through threats to pull existing contracts or in the courts. Seems like a lot of unenforceable bollocks to me. Scare tactics often work however.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:50
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HorseLord posted:I've been confronted by people who claim 100 Million. You can do maths, what's 100 - 70? 'What some bloke down the pub told me' doesn't count as empirical research and isn't particularly useful for disproving anything.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:52
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HorseLord posted:No. There's literally nothing to back this statement up other than you saying it forcefully. The USSR was not a successor state to the Russian Empire. None of the government institutions, laws, armies, police, etc carried over. They made quite a point of lustration within the new institutions, even! Little thing called the great purge, you probably never heard of it. Yeah, I mran you're right, the Okhrana and the NKVD are entirely different. I mean, they have entirely different names and everything... I also like that you bring up the great purge like it was a good thing and not just the paranoid murder spree of a megalomaniac. HorseLord posted:You're just saying rubbish now. You can love your liberalism and the true progressive goodness of cops shooting black people and getting vacations for it or whatever. You're so completely far gone you're unable to see the hypocrisy in decrying western imperialism while defending the historical record of the Soviet loving Union and you are literally employing the "but you are lynching negroes" non-argument here in a context where it doesn't even make the slightest sense. HorseLord posted:But talking to you is a waste of time. 
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Aug 1, 2016 23:53
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36943526 I think that should be the first thing anyone should read if they ever think Academy's are a good idea.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:53
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tooterfish posted:I think maybe he has a moustache fetish. Oberleutnant posted:including (but not limited to) the Irish Famines. I know you know this, it just remains interesting how the former groups go out and murder a few million people with their bare hands, whereas the latter wring their hands endlessly, and the end result is still a huge number of people dead, but it's portrayed completely differently. I remember raising the British Boer War concentration camps with a (British) history teacher talking about WWII camps and being told that they were completely different, nobody was intended to die in those, people were just confined in one place with lovely water and then cholera and dysentery happened, totally different, very sad.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:53
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StoneOfShame posted:You're actually dense aren't you? The moving onto something else was because you talking about a single aspect of Soviet Russia has to be taken in the context of you being a full on Stalinist propagandist so you should be challenged on all aspects of your stupidity. No it was because you don't know anything about Antisemitism in the USSR, but you still need to feel like you can win, so your brought along a backup subject you felt more confidant at. Most people would just say "To be honest I don't know." and that would be the end of it. StoneOfShame posted:Estimates for all genocides in history vary wildly therefore the holocaust didn't happen and neither did Cambodia's killing fields. That's interesting because we have very solid figures for the holocaust. We have proved exactly how many people died (to couple thousand), when, and where, as well as where they were from, who their family was, how they were caught, transferred into the camp system etc. Meanwhile, with Stalin, bad historians have just shouted random big numbers. StoneOfShame posted:I thought you would care about people going to gulags because I made the mistake of assuming you had a shred of humanity to you but you obviously dont. People go to prison all the time. You can't guilt me over anticommunists and other criminals going to prison, because I think that's good. If you'd like to guilt me over the falsely convicted, that's cool, we should meet up IRL and protest HM Prisons and the police together. Because alive falsely convicted people are more important than historical ones.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:55
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