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silence_kit posted:What is so misleading about me saying that the Tribe dropped the ball when it came to working with the people in charge of building the pipeline? Because you make no mention of their issue with the absence of consulting on land outside of the corpse's jurisdiction, the corpse setting timelines that may not be realistic for a group of 9,000 peoples with no highly paid and trained government bureaucrats to aid in responding, that they over several years, did respond to the corpse's inquiries, but those responses were simply not what the corpse wanted, and refused to engage with. Furthermore, you comparing this same small group of peoples who have been historically marginalized and abused by the government with a metro area of 120,000 people with federal, state, municipal government representation and bureaucracy is absurd.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:48
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RBC posted:Because you make no mention of their issue with the absence of consulting on land outside of the corpse's jurisdiction, the corpse setting timelines that may not be realistic for a group of 9,000 peoples with no highly paid and trained government bureaucrats to aid in responding, that they over several years, did respond to the corpse's inquiries, but those responses were simply not what the corpse wanted, and refused to engage with. Furthermore, you comparing this same small group of peoples who have been historically marginalized and abused by the government with a metro area of 120,000 people with federal, state, municipal government representation and bureaucracy is absurd. The section 1D in the document is pretty damning though and makes it seem like the pipeline wasn't really a big deal to them or that they were just really incompetent. By the way, Waste'Win Young's job is to serve as the Standing Rock Tribe Historic Preservation Officer. If you think that somehow the document is misleading, please by all means detail why it is so. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 17:58
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silence_kit posted:The section 1D in the document is pretty damning though and makes it seem like the pipeline wasn't really a big deal to them or that they were just really incompetent. By the way, Waste'Win Young's job is to serve as the Standing Rocks Historic Preservation Officer. I just explained why this is an ignorant, stupid opinion so why do you think restating it over and over somehow makes a difference
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Nov 27, 2016 18:03
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Giving someone over a month to make a response to a highly relevant letter or email pertaining to your job isn't particularly onerous, lol. This happened multiple times, too.
silence_kit fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 18:09
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RBC posted:I just explained why this is an ignorant, stupid opinion so why do you think restating it over and over somehow makes a difference You've yet to back your claim with a single bit of substantive support.
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Nov 27, 2016 18:09
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Jarmak posted:You've yet to back your claim with a single bit of substantive support. i didn't realize i'm speaking to idiots with no education in colonial history? perhaps you should educate yourself before engaging in issues that require such an education?
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Nov 27, 2016 18:11
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RBC posted:Because you make no mention of their issue with the absence of consulting on land outside of the corpse's jurisdiction Oh is this the thing where the reservation, after waiting until the pipeline was almost complete, wanted the Corps to review the entire pipeline, including the like 99% that's on private property and thus that the feds and the Corps has no jurisdiction over?  RBC posted:that they over several years, did respond to the corpse's inquiries, but those responses were simply not what the corpse wanted, and refused to engage with. Point out where the court document that silence_kit posted where this happened, or post another document that shows that the Corps ignored the few sacred sites that the reservation bothered to point out over 2 years.
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Nov 27, 2016 18:13
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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silence_kit posted:Giving someone over a month to make a response to a letter or email which pertains to your job isn't particularly onerous, lol This happened multiple times, too. I just explained why this is an ignorant, stupid opinion so why do you think restating it over and over somehow makes a difference
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Nov 27, 2016 18:14
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RBC posted:I just explained why this is an ignorant, stupid opinion so why do you think restating it over and over somehow makes a difference So did you not even read the court documents? Because sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "colonialism" is not an explanation or an argument.
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Nov 27, 2016 18:16
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Jarmak posted:So did you not even read the court documents? Because sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "colonialism" is not an explanation or an argument. actually it is
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Nov 27, 2016 18:17
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like if you want to argue colonialism doesn't exist, go right ahead my friend, but you can do it in another thread. or another forum. like the alt-right subreddit. cheers
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Nov 27, 2016 18:18
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Mmm yes there are only two options here: a) either we ask you to make more than a one-liner post or b) native peoples have never experienced anything bad at someone else's hands. Don't bother responding though, just be gone.
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Nov 27, 2016 18:28
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RBC posted:Because you make no mention of their issue with the absence of consulting on land outside of the corpse's jurisdiction, the corpse setting timelines that may not be realistic for a group of 9,000 peoples with no highly paid and trained government bureaucrats to aid in responding, that they over several years, did respond to the corpse's inquiries, but those responses were simply not what the corpse wanted, and refused to engage with. Q. Summarize your education and professional background. A. I graduated from the University of North Dakota in 2001. I have a Bachelor’s of Arts in English Language and Literature. I have a Bachelor’s of Arts in American Indian Studies as well as a minor in psychology. I have worked in the Tribal Historic Preservation Office for the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe since 2003. She is not some uneducated rube in way over her head. She was paid 40-50k a year for over ten years explicitly to preserve cultural artifacts of the Lakota. Gobbeldygook fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 18:30
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What?
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Nov 27, 2016 18:30
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Tribal governments being dysfunctional at best isn't exactly a new or surprising thing. That its being used as scant justification for pigs to bash heads is still pretty crappy though.
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Nov 27, 2016 18:34
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Gobbeldygook posted:Chief Archambault has an MBA. WasteWin Young described herself as such: I never said she was an uneducated rube. I said the standing rock tribe had limited resources compared to Bismarck, North Dakota. Furthermore, I said that over the course of years, they may have had diffuclty responding in a timely manner, but they did respond, many times and did have issues with how the army corpse was engaging them that are documented. Why are do you guys have such difficulty with reading comprehension that I have to keep explaining the same thing?
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Nov 27, 2016 18:34
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I don't understand why people support huge corporations and their gov't lackeys so vehemently. Dawg they sent an email and you didn't respond thats why they excavated your gramma to put in a utility line.
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Nov 27, 2016 18:37
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Because they really are just organizations made up of normal people and not Weyland Yutani, and sometimes their decisions are correct despite having more money than the people who disagree with them.
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Nov 27, 2016 18:55
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Shuka posted:I don't understand why people support huge corporations and their gov't lackeys so vehemently. Incredibly, if you don't bother to show up to an adversarial process your concerns don't get heard.  RBC posted:but they did respond, many times and did have issues with how the army corpse was engaging them that are documented. DeusExMachinima posted:Point out where the court document that silence_kit posted where this happened, or post another document that shows that the Corps ignored the few sacred sites that the reservation bothered to point out over 2 years.
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Nov 27, 2016 18:57
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DeusExMachinima posted:Incredibly, if you don't bother to show up to an adversarial process your concerns don't get heard. it's not an adversarial process. the gently caress are you babbling about?
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Nov 27, 2016 19:10
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RBC posted:Because you make no mention of their issue with the absence of consulting on land outside of the corpse's jurisdiction quote:the corpse setting timelines that may not be realistic for a group of 9,000 peoples with no highly paid and trained government bureaucrats to aid in responding, quote:that they over several years, did respond to the corpse's inquiries, but those responses were simply not what the corpse wanted, and refused to engage with. quote:Furthermore, you comparing this same small group of peoples who have been historically marginalized and abused by the government with a metro area of 120,000 people with federal, state, municipal government representation and bureaucracy is absurd. RBC posted:actually it is because this single issue trumps all other concerns and dictates how more general policy and decisionmaking should function
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Nov 27, 2016 19:10
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blowfish posted:"Hey please also give an extremely lengthy assessment on things you are not responsible for and have no power over, what do you mean it's a waste of time and money that will accomplish nothing?" Yes Colonial oppression absolutely trumps all other concerns and dictates how "more" general policy and decision making should function. See, recorded history. Do you also believe slavery has no relevance to how the government treats black people?
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Nov 27, 2016 19:18
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RBC posted:it's not an adversarial process. the gently caress are you babbling about? In the sense that the company presents their proposed pipeline path and then the other party points out the problems with it. Also: quote:but they did respond, many times and did have issues with how the army corpse was engaging them that are documented. quote:Point out where the court document that silence_kit posted where this happened, or post another document that shows that the Corps ignored the few sacred sites that the reservation bothered to point out over 2 years.
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Nov 27, 2016 19:18
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DeusExMachinima posted:In the sense that the company presents their proposed pipeline path and then the other party points out the problems with it. The company never consulted with the tribe. They didn't have to. It was the federal government. Are you completely loving retarded?
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Nov 27, 2016 19:19
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RBC posted:Yes Colonial oppression absolutely trumps all other concerns and dictates how "more" general policy and decision making should function. See, recorded history. No it absolutely doesn't, pragmatism does. Also, given that you're still spending money from 1888 you must be very old and might not be the best person to ask about how black people should be treated~ You have also failed to say anything about the other points I raised.
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Nov 27, 2016 19:22
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blowfish posted:No it absolutely doesn't, pragmatism does. lol okay tony blair let's pragmatically ban your account for making terrible posts
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Nov 27, 2016 19:29
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RBC posted:like if you want to argue colonialism doesn't exist, go right ahead my friend, but you can do it in another thread. or another forum. like the alt-right subreddit. cheers I completely agree with where you're arguing from. Unfortunately, you're just being a dick instead of arguing in good faith. I'd like to know more about the friction that shows up in interactions between Natives and the gov't, so I guess I'll just go vacuum it up myself instead of getting a good digest from someone that seems to have an educated and substantiated opinion.
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Nov 27, 2016 19:36
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RBC posted:The company never consulted with the tribe. They didn't have to. It was the federal government. Are you completely loving retarded? https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...ry.html?0p19G=c "In mid-November, the tribe posted on its Facebook page a recording of the 2014 meeting, in which Archambault warned pipeline company representatives that the tribe still recognizes the Fort Laramie borders, and therefore the pipeline that the company considered 1,500 feet north of the reservation was, in fact, part of the tribe’s territory." The last time the Lakota controlled that territory Europe looked like this. I look forward to all the pro-protester posters showing up in the Eastern Europe thread to support comrade Putin's territorial claims. 
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Nov 27, 2016 19:42
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And some people in this thread still question that most of the outrage over the pipeline issue has nothing to do with the pipeline itself and is really about how the US cheated the natives of their land 150 years ago? Incredible. Edit: Looking at my new avatar, it's kind of sad how now any opinion in this thread which doesn't toe this thread's party line hyperbolically gets labeled as genocidal. It kind of trivializes the real genocide the native people experienced at the hands of the previous US government. I would think that posters who are passionate about this issue wouldn't talk about genocide so casually and disrespect peoples who actually have experienced genocide, but here we are. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 19:53
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RBC posted:The company never consulted with the tribe. They didn't have to. It was the federal government. Are you completely loving retarded? Correct, the company didn't have to, but they did anyway. Anyway the company presents their plan for the water crossing to the ACE, who then consults-or in this case, attempts to consult-with the relevant party. Feel free to post court documents showing the Core looked at all the sacred sites the reservation totally pointed out at them and went "nah."
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Nov 27, 2016 20:02
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RBC posted:lol okay tony blair let's pragmatically ban your account for making terrible posts tony blair was bad because he was actually an ideologue pretending to be pragmatic, please get your insults right silence_kit posted:Edit: Looking at my new avatar, it's kind of sad how now any opinion in this thread which doesn't toe this thread's party line hyperbolically gets labeled as genocidal. It kind of trivializes the real genocide the native people experienced at the hands of the previous US government. I would think that posters who are passionate about this issue wouldn't talk about genocide so casually and disrespect peoples who actually have experienced genocide, but here we are. That's because it's easy to just accuse your opponent of arbitrary bad things without thinking too hard about how accurate that accusation actually is. When you're really really really convinced you're right and the other guys are wrong (and also evil) it's appealing to argue badly in this way but it's still arguing in bad faith to blatantly support your team over the other guys irrespective of reality. e: it warms my heart to know I, too, have outraged a posting superstar enough to buy me unimaginative redtext suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 20:43
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RBC posted:The company never consulted with the tribe. They didn't have to. It was the federal government. Are you completely loving retarded? At this point I think it's safe to assume you haven't actually read a drat thing about what happened and are just making poo poo up.
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Nov 27, 2016 21:07
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blowfish posted:That's because it's easy to just accuse your opponent of arbitrary bad things without thinking too hard about how accurate that accusation actually is. When you're really really really convinced you're right and the other guys are wrong (and also evil) it's appealing to argue badly in this way but it's still arguing in bad faith to blatantly support your team over the other guys irrespective of reality. Yes, but it is also p bad to waffle around relativization while people are being shot and gassed by police for daring to protect their human right to clean water, which is what a lot of posters seem to be doing now. Gobbeldygook posted:The company did meet with the tribe, but holy poo poo Are you always posting in bad faith, or are you really not in touch with the actual situation? This is not natives being petty or greedy, tribes who are ancestral enemies have actually cooperated at Standing Rock because not being further genocided does actually matter more than private property, regardless of what it looks like to you.
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Nov 27, 2016 21:08
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Whoever's buying avatars for everyone with a dissenting opinion: http://standingrock.org/news/standing-rock-sioux-tribe--dakota-access-pipeline-donation-fund/
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Nov 27, 2016 21:10
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blowfish posted:e: it warms my heart to know I, too, have outraged a posting superstar enough to buy me unimaginative redtext I kind of wish I would have gotten a There Will Be Blood 'I am an oilman' avatar, after writing my post about how most people who do the low-effort vague protesting against oil at large, are pretty huge hypocrites and actually are heavily reliant upon oil and would be kicking and screaming if it weren't cheap and plentiful. Oh well.
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Nov 27, 2016 21:17
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Yes. Tell me more about how one lives a life not dependant on petrochemicals in modern Western civilization. I'll wait while you explain just how it is possible to meet the absurd goalposts you have strapped your strawman to. Here's a consideration for you, though. It is possible to use something, even to consider that thing necessary, without having to condone and accept everything tangentially related to that thing.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:28
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silence_kit posted:I kind of wish I would have gotten a There Will Be Blood 'I am an oilman' avatar, after writing my post about how most people who do the low-effort vague protesting against oil at large, are pretty huge hypocrites and actually are heavily reliant upon oil and would be kicking and screaming if it weren't cheap and plentiful. Oh well.  This is you. You are actually this guy right here.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:38
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silence_kit posted:I kind of wish I would have gotten a There Will Be Blood 'I am an oilman' avatar, after writing my post about how most people who do the low-effort vague protesting against oil at large, are pretty huge hypocrites and actually are heavily reliant upon oil and would be kicking and screaming if it weren't cheap and plentiful. Oh well. o well.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:47
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i wish someone would have given me a cool and good avatar for my poo poo rear end opinions instead of the one i got. o well.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:48
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Okay, so I read the entire civil action (thanks for posting it, though my head hurts now), and I hereby retract my statement that the protest was originally about the pipeline impacting the water supply. I don't know what exactly the protest started out about anymore, but as the document says: "In seeking preliminary-injunctive relief here, the Standing Rock Sioux do not claim that a potential future rupture in the pipeline could damage their reserved land or water. Instead, they point to an entirely separate injury: the likelihood that DAPL’s ongoing construction activities – specifically, grading and clearing of land – might damage or destroy sites of great cultural or historical significance to the Tribe. " The only thing I can grasp is that it is all falls back to native lands/treaty violations. I am paraphrasing/generalizing here: The tribe makes the argument that the corps did not do their duty in reviewing the entire pipeline route, the corps responds that they can only assess the parts where they have jurisdiction to do so (which I think includes both federal and tribal land, I know EPA regulates on tribal land) because a majority of the pipeline route is on "private" land (yes I understand that the definition of private land is wrong in a historical context, I am going off of the court's opinion right now), which then taking the tribe's stance that their land encompasses "wherever the buffalo roamed"* seems to indicate the tribe is trying to make the point that the corps does have jurisdiction over the entire pipeline route because the corps have jurisdiction over federal/tribal land, thus they have jurisdiction over the entire route because it is all on land taken from native peoples. So is this just a proxy in the treaty disputes then? All I can ask is please be chill to each other in this discussion, because the consensus among people I've talked to around the protest area, both native and non-native, is how we will treat each other once the pipeline is either in, or out. E.g. Older natives worry about a backlash that will affect their children's lives, and non-natives worry this will lead to long lasting distrust and heighten tensions between those living (particularly ranchers) in proximity to the reservation border both on and off. * Plaintiff never defined the boundaries of its ancestral lands vis-à- vis DAPL. Instead, Standing Rock asserts that these lands extend “wherever the buffalo roamed.”
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Nov 27, 2016 23:10
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