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Archyduke posted:No, I mean, you have every right to feel viscerally turned-off by all of this. In the same way that the homophobic or transphobic jibes in some Ennis comics have often tainted the well for me. I know he writes good stuff and I even read some of it but there's a part of me that's always like "gently caress this, gently caress him." It was mainly this post that irritated me, yours was fine. Open Marriage Night posted:Secret Empire #0 was surprisingly good, and seeing people act offended by it is hilarious.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:25
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Eh, Captain America is not nearly the character created in the 40s anymore anyway.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:35
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Hydra are cool and not Nazis. They are an ancient organization which manipulated them to leech off exorbitant funds for personal projects. When Rodgers defeated Hydra during the war, he only made the Nazis more efficient. So in some sense, he was aiding Hitler all along. Good thing that's changed now. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 22:17
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get off the internet Nick Spencer
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Apr 21, 2017 22:19
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cant cook creole bream posted:Hydra are cool and not Nazis. I know what all these words mean and yet in this order they are meaningless.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:32
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Okay, the dumbest thing I've seen about Secret Empire is people are calling for G WIllow Wilson, Ryan North and others to leave Marvel because they shouldn't be working for a Pro-Nazi company. People Know that Hydra Branded merch was available before Secret Empire right?
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Apr 21, 2017 23:50
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twistedmentat posted:Okay, the dumbest thing I've seen about Secret Empire is people are calling for G WIllow Wilson, Ryan North and others to leave Marvel because they shouldn't be working for a Pro-Nazi company. There is a difference between selling Merch and encouraging people to rebrand themselves as Nazis. (I don't think anyone should leave the company over it, mind.)
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Apr 21, 2017 23:53
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ImpAtom posted:There is a difference between selling Merch and encouraging people to rebrand themselves as Nazis. (I don't think anyone should leave the company over it, mind.) Yea, I agree with that, but I've seen a fair amount of people going "I cannot believe they made Nazi Tshirts!". Not to mention basically every post and tweet I've seen about this completely glosses over the actual story. Acting like Marvel has put out a book that says "Hey, take it from me, Captain America, Nazi's are awesome!".
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Apr 22, 2017 00:07
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To me the premise is fine. Captain America, the model superhero, is now a villain. Using his spotless reputation to advance his plot underhandedly in a campaign of deception and betrayal. Undermining everything he's suppose to stand and fight for. I haven't read Captain America, but the biggest problem I've observed people have is the total rewriting of Steve Rogers' past into always being loyal and willing Hyrda agent and the story problems that introduces. Along with the disgust of subverting a symbol of freedom and liberty into one of Nazism. I think simple mind control would have gone better than this convoluted time travel rewriting.
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Apr 22, 2017 00:06
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to me the premise feels like they took a what if and blew it up into the focal point of a massive event. this is like if dc suddenly made red son superman retroactively the main superman from the beginning. I'm not angry about it and I think some people are maybe acting under a faulty assumption (ie, marvel thinks hydra or nazi's are cool), but I don't think it's a good idea and I'm not particularly interested in reading it. but then, I don't follow any captain america books and I've taken a wait and see policy on events after civil war 2 and monsters unleashed, so obviously I'm not the target audience for this one it actually kinda reminds me of when ea announced battlefield hardline in the middle of a bunch of police scandals and everyone decided it sucked before it ever came out. and, much like hardline, I expect the actual product to be pretty underwhelming but not actually satan incarnated as a form of media
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Apr 22, 2017 00:26
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So, um.... when are Sue, Reed, Franklin and Val coming back? I miss them.
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Apr 22, 2017 00:58
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On the one hand, they're doing some F4 toys. On the other they're still aggressively removing them from things. The Marvel Heroes Diablo-like game just launched on PS4. They were required to remove not just the F4 NPCs but every reference to them.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:11
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OhFunny posted:To me the premise is fine. Captain America, the model superhero, is now a villain. Using his spotless reputation to advance his plot underhandedly in a campaign of deception and betrayal. Undermining everything he's suppose to stand and fight for. I think picking the Secret Empire instead of Hydra would have been perfect, honestly. Hell, the Secret Empire even has its roots in pro-America jingoistic facism, for gently caress's sake.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:30
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I think picking the Secret Empire instead of Hydra would have been perfect, honestly. Hell, the Secret Empire even has its roots in pro-America jingoistic facism, for gently caress's sake. Aren't they a Hydra splinter-group anyway?
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Apr 22, 2017 02:17
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I think if you're seriously upset about this event to the point you're calling for boycotts and that writers quit the company because you think it makes them nazis, you probably need to take a step back It's the other side of the "They made Captain America BLACK!!!!!!" coin e: like... lol if you dont think this event wont end in a return to the status quo and lots of hydra-totally-not-nazis getting their asses beat
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Apr 22, 2017 02:37
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I don't think anyone doesn't think this is going to get reverted, that's really not what the conversation is about.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:43
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I actually liked Secret War #0, it probably helped that it started off with some references to Hickman's Shield which I also really enjoy. Let's see if they stick the landing on the end, because this has to result in Cap going back to being a good guy, I can't see them running with evil Steve Rogers for years and years.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:43
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With this Legacy initiative thing, there's no question that Steve is being put back in his default state.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:43
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Clawtopsy posted:I think if you're seriously upset about this event to the point you're calling for boycotts and that writers quit the company because you think it makes them nazis, you probably need to take a step back Nobody thinks the event isn't going to be reverted. The people complaining think it is in poor taste especially the current climate and the secondary twist which (if they stick to it) says some pretty gross things that are probably entirely unintentional.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:46
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Clawtopsy posted:I think if you're seriously upset about this event to the point you're calling for boycotts and that writers quit the company because you think it makes them nazis, you probably need to take a step back You just said being black is the same thing as being a Nazi. You might want to walk back on that.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:47
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I don't know what missing the point position is more adorable, "they're going to change it back anyway" or "these people don't even read comics." Like, it's not the opposite of being mad that Captain America is black mother of christ.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:46
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If it is the answer is so? Like explain how that is a problem.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:51
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People shouldn't have to spend x dollars to have a right to call out bullshit and the fact that it's not going to be forever doesn't make it less of a lovely thing?
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Apr 22, 2017 03:04
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I am curious what the lead time on this was. There is no way Spenser started this knowing Trump was going to be President, and he probably wrote this sometime last year, probably even before the Primaries were completed. Not only that, if Marvel said "no, I don't think we should run this now that Literal Nazi's are running the country", how much of their plans would be completely hosed?
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Apr 22, 2017 03:04
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Sorry, it wasn't my intent to say thatCharlestheHammer posted:You just said being black is the same thing as being a Nazi. And I apologize wholeheartedly if that was the perception. More that some folks being emotionally threatened by this event are similar to the alt-righters who feel threatened by diversity changes. The changes themselves aren't comparable, no, but I find that the hysteria is similar. I think an event set in a fictional universe where a genetically modified raccoon with his living tree buddy firing big guns is meant to be nothing more than a big dumb event? Maybe it's because I don't live in America and am not really exposed to your whole thing that's going on right now.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:05
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I don't hate this because it's horrific to make a creation of two Jewish men into a Nazi. I hate this cause it's dumb as gently caress with a billion plot holes and it's written by Nick Spencer who is poo poo. It's not a particularly interesting concept that Marvel is trying too loving hard to push.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:06
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Onmi posted:I don't hate this because it's horrific to make a creation of two Jewish men into a Nazi. I hate it for both reasons!
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Apr 22, 2017 03:08
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Clawtopsy posted:More that some folks being emotionally threatened by this event are similar to the alt-righters who feel threatened by diversity changes. The changes themselves aren't comparable, no, but I find that the hysteria is similar. Those people are actually being threatened by the alt-right so comparing them is pretty garbage.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:09
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I think the premise is kinda dumb, but I'm interested in seeing how it all falls apart. I like stories where the good guys are clearly-cut, and the underdogs, which this seems to be setting up.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:09
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twistedmentat posted:I am curious what the lead time on this was. There is no way Spenser started this knowing Trump was going to be President, and he probably wrote this sometime last year, probably even before the Primaries were completed. Considering one of Marvel's higher ups is a massive Trump supporter and ally he probably thinks that this represents a better present than the actual one.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:10
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Clawtopsy posted:I think the premise is kinda dumb, but I'm interested in seeing how it all falls apart. I like stories where the good guys are clearly-cut, and the underdogs, which this seems to be setting up. I don't really like the endgame for cap yea obviously he's gonna go back to normal, but the fallout for this event is gonna hang over his head for a long time I think
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Apr 22, 2017 03:14
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I'm getting really tired of this attitude that if one group of people finds something dumb, and another finds another thing dumb then they're being just as bad. One is mad that a character they like is now black. The other is mad that the character they like is now a Nazi. I'm sorry, but in my mind, that first group of people will always be way worse than the other in a way that comparing them at all just looks ridiculous.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:14
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twistedmentat posted:I am curious what the lead time on this was. There is no way Spenser started this knowing Trump was going to be President, and he probably wrote this sometime last year, probably even before the Primaries were completed. https://twitter.com/nickspencer/status/855563192398991364 https://twitter.com/nickspencer/status/855564596056387584 Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 03:19
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Roth posted:I'm getting really tired of this attitude that if one group of people finds something dumb, and another finds another thing dumb then they're being just as bad. More accurately, the first group is mad a black guy got a new name while the guy they like is still there, doing his thing.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:21
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Eh, I'm just going to read it because I like HYDRA.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:24
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I think I'd have a much harder time with the story if not for the fact that this was something that was explicitly done to Steve. If it was some kind of long game where we still didn't know why Steve was suddenly a Supreme HYDRA (i.e. Jessica's motivations in the first arc of Jessica Jones), or it was an out-and-out "everything you know is wrong" retcon like something John Byrne would've done, I'd be a lot more annoyed than I am. Then again, I've been reading these silly things for just about my entire life, so I've seen a lot of goofy poo poo come out and get hastily swept under the rug, and I don't have any particular ideological attachment to Steve. Marvel somehow didn't really appreciate just how much a lot of fans, particularly their newer fans who've come in via the MCU, empathize with and idolize Steve, especially right now. I have to admit, I appreciate the dramatic irony that the last thing Steve did before this all came to fruition was to pitch the Red Skull out a window.
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Apr 22, 2017 05:26
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Wanderer posted:I think I'd have a much harder time with the story if not for the fact that this was something that was explicitly done to Steve. If it was some kind of long game where we still didn't know why Steve was suddenly a Supreme HYDRA (i.e. Jessica's motivations in the first arc of Jessica Jones), or it was an out-and-out "everything you know is wrong" retcon like something John Byrne would've done, I'd be a lot more annoyed than I am.
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Apr 22, 2017 05:38
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That part's just in his head, isn't it? I only read the first collection of CapSteve, but Kobik did it first on a doctor and it only changed his memory of history.
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Apr 22, 2017 05:50
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Nessus posted:It seems like a lot of the irritation is the double-down, "and also, the universe you've known all along was AAAAAAACTUALLY retconned into existence by the Allies because they were losing the war to Hydra!" While obviously there has been stupid-rear end bullshit in many a funny book, it does kind of come off as pointless edgelordery. I've been writing that off as what Kobik did to justify the scenario. In a World War II where HYDRA is inexplicably powerful enough to have that much influence and that many double agents (and where Steve is still the shining example of American patriotism despite his bromance with the Zemos), it would take something like a Cosmic Cube for the Allies to win the war.
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Apr 22, 2017 06:07
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The "Retcon" of the allies losing the war isn't necessarily retcon, in universe. If a few things hadn't worked out the way they did the Germans could have won the war in theory, so with the allies using a cube to win it's really just like saying they used a super weapon, not that they actually rewrote time.
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Apr 22, 2017 06:18
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