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Having seen what the new stats for Mortarion are, they better loving gimme some more loyalist Primarchs if only for game balance reasons! Death Guard are crazy strong right now!
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Feb 2, 2021 00:35
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Sephyr posted:As much as I like several Primarchs, I am really ambivalent about bringing them back. It makes the entire setting a family feud, rather than a mad tapestry of war with a thousand small strands that you can zoom in. Calgar has an arc to explore with the fact that Calgar isn't actually Calgar Also Corax is absolutely pissed and basically something of a daemon prince.
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Feb 2, 2021 00:53
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Corax as loyalist Demon Prince of Vengeance, loathed by the Imperium too would be kinda baller. Half the Raven Guard flock (heh.) to him and are immediately expelled as Excommunicate Traitoris but are still loyal; The other half (led by Shrike, natch) declare him an Abomination that must be hunted down. I'd dig that.
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Feb 2, 2021 00:57
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Shockeh posted:Corax as loyalist Demon Prince of Vengeance, loathed by the Imperium too would be kinda baller. The Imperium is having a bit of a "Holy poo poo faith magic works" moment so they could spin it as him being the Emperor's vengeance and people would probably roll with it. Not if the Raven Guard do is another question.
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Feb 2, 2021 01:01
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:i'm pretty sure graham mcneill dumpstered Painting Fulgrim, the single most interesting canon change of the entire HH series, in the execrable short story "the reflection crack'd" which also features fulgrim getting a butt plug stuffed up him by his sons I thought we agreed, as a community, to ignore that because it was terrible?
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Feb 2, 2021 01:18
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D-Pad posted:Speaking of Lorgar...I'm not sure I believe it, but I really like this theory: The more I think about this theory the more I buy it. Lorgar turning against Chaos at the end of the Heresy would be huge, earth-shattering, but I can draw a line of logic to it. Lorgar turned to Chaos because he felt he had no choice. He believed, deep in his soul, that humanity needed gods and needed worship. If the Emperor was unwilling to accept that worship, then humanity would seek other gods... and find them, because other gods exist. Humanity would worship those gods in ignorance and be destroyed by them just as the Eldar were. Their only hope was for Lorgar to guide their worship, to turn an unstable cascading chain reaction of worship into a stable and controlled one like a nuclear plant. Then humanity could survive. The actual reality of the Chaos gods he hated. Argel Tal is his mouthpiece here; in Betrayer he explicitly says that the Chaos gods don't deserve worship, but he has to do so anyways. Lorgar's evident favor for Argel Tal (and disdain for Erebus) suggests to me that he subscribes to this view as well. But as of Saturnine, the Emperor is (apparently, at least, though it could just be Malcador acting) accepting the Imperial Cult. He's allowing it, rather than suppressing it. So now Lorgar has an alternative. There could be an outlet for humanity's faith that doesn't require constant horrific atrocities. Of course, now he's in a bind-- because just as he couldn't allow humanity to blindly follow Chaos into the abyss, he can't allow them to build an edifice of ignorance in worship of the Emperor. The result of that is, well, what we see today. That's the Imperium. They've totally hosed it up. Lorgar (who wrote the original Lectitio Divinitatus) could certainly fix that. He could create a theology around the God-Emperor that would be both stable, powerful and uplifting. That's what he's good at (and in fact eventually creating that was probably why he was made--he just started too early). But nobody would ever allow him to now! He's the arch-traitor! He's the first heretic! He would never, ever, ever be trusted or accepted by the Imperium. That's a thorny problem, the kind of problem you meditate on in seclusion for ten thousand years, leaving your irrevocably tainted and broken legion to its own devices. A really next-level moment would be him and Corax swapping places; Corax is corrupted from his years in the Eye and his single-minded pursuit of vengeance on Lorgar. One primarch falls, one rises. This is all speculation but it's a neat idea.
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Feb 2, 2021 01:34
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Shockeh posted:Corax as loyalist Demon Prince of Vengeance, loathed by the Imperium too would be kinda baller. e; Never mind, a 'murder' is a group of crows, a group of ravens is an 'Unkindness', apparently. But yes, Corax being the hero the imperium needs, not the one they want, some kind of dark knight, would be grand. MariusLecter fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 01:36
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:The more I think about this theory the more I buy it. Lorgar turning against Chaos at the end of the Heresy would be huge, earth-shattering, but I can draw a line of logic to it. Bit of a nitpick but Iirc a decent chunk of the lecto divinitus or imperial creed is actually from a loyalistish word bearers dreadnaught.
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Feb 2, 2021 01:39
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Telsa Cola posted:Bit of a nitpick but Iirc a decent chunk of the lecto divinitus or imperial creed is actually from a loyalistish word bearers dreadnaught. that's the anchorite, but he was transcribing and rewriting something lorgar had previously written-- the lectitio was entirely written and distributed prior to Horus Rising, while the Anchorite didn't convert until the Siege.
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Feb 2, 2021 01:42
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:that's the anchorite, but he was transcribing and rewriting something lorgar had previously written-- the lectitio was entirely written and distributed prior to Horus Rising, while the Anchorite didn't convert until the Siege. Ah yeah thats right.
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Feb 2, 2021 01:44
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:i'm pretty sure graham mcneill dumpstered Painting Fulgrim, the single most interesting canon change of the entire HH series, in the execrable short story "the reflection crack'd" which also features fulgrim getting a butt plug stuffed up him by his sons It's been revealed that that was just a lie. Real Fulgrim is still trapped.
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Feb 2, 2021 02:00
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MonsterEnvy posted:It's been revealed that that was just a lie. Real Fulgrim is still trapped. Where’s that? I would like to read it.
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Feb 2, 2021 02:11
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:A really next-level moment would be him and Corax swapping places; Corax is corrupted from his years in the Eye and his single-minded pursuit of vengeance on Lorgar. One primarch falls, one rises. I love it, it would also be very tragic if a re-loyalist Lorgar is hindered by a fallen or even renegade Corax.
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Feb 2, 2021 02:29
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Telsa Cola posted:Calgar has an arc to explore with the fact that Calgar isn't actually Calgar This has been waaay overblown by the fandom. Yet another example of people reading headlines and not the source material. Calgar is still Calgar, he was just named something else before his ascension. It isn't even a secret that he took the real Calgar's name. Like the noble house original Calgar is from knows that the original died and current Calgar took his name. They've always known and been cool with it. He didn't secretly replace and pass himself off as Calgar he just said yeah I'm gonna take his name to honor him. This is a fact we didn't know as fans but has always been the case and not an "omg Calgar has a deep dark secret and now that it's out what will others in-universe do?!?! The comics are good with some great art. I suggest everybody read them. I've got all of them out so far including all variant covers because I have a problem. D-Pad fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 03:08
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I wonder if we're supposed to see it as hypocritical that the Word Bearers complain about xenos DNA corrupting some random branch of humanity led by that fat queen while they have literal daemons incubating inside them. Apparently even after another10,000 years many Traitor Legions still hate Xenos. Like...what?
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Feb 2, 2021 05:01
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NikkolasKing posted:I wonder if we're supposed to see it as hypocritical that the Word Bearers complain about xenos DNA corrupting some random branch of humanity led by that fat queen while they have literal daemons incubating inside them. Hey, they might worship horrible daemonic abominations, but those are clean, pure human-based daemonic abominations. Chaos called dibs on the Emperor, no kill-stealing.
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Feb 2, 2021 05:14
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D-Pad posted:This has been waaay overblown by the fandom. Yet another example of people reading headlines and not the source material.
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Feb 2, 2021 05:28
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I think loyalist Lorgar would be difficult to do just sure to how much Girlyman hates him. He was the direct cause of the destruction of Calth and death of a whole lot of Ultramarines. Combined with his distrust and unease with the Imperial cult in general, it would cause real difficulties accepting Lorgar. That said it would be kind of fun to see how the gently caress the word bearers deal with their semi deified gene father telling them all to get hosed because they're following a false religion when the Emperor is right there you guys!
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Feb 2, 2021 08:11
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MrNemo posted:I think loyalist Lorgar would be difficult to do just sure to how much Girlyman hates him. He was the direct cause of the destruction of Calth and death of a whole lot of Ultramarines. Combined with his distrust and unease with the Imperial cult in general, it would cause real difficulties accepting Lorgar. That said it would be kind of fun to see how the gently caress the word bearers deal with their semi deified gene father telling them all to get hosed because they're following a false religion when the Emperor is right there you guys! And Lorgar being a powerful chaos daemon prince would make kind of difficult to integrate him into the Imperium as well.
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Feb 2, 2021 13:29
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Just paint his armor gold. Boom instant living saint.
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Feb 2, 2021 13:47
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Guyver posted:Just paint his armor gold. Boom instant living saint. isn't there some Pratchett quote about how between angels and demons its just a matter of where you're standing or something along those lines?
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Feb 2, 2021 14:30
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MonsterEnvy posted:It's been revealed that that was just a lie. Real Fulgrim is still trapped. I am curious where this comes from as well.
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Feb 2, 2021 14:47
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NikkolasKing posted:I wonder if we're supposed to see it as hypocritical that the Word Bearers complain about xenos DNA corrupting some random branch of humanity led by that fat queen while they have literal daemons incubating inside them. Daemons are ourselves made manifest and xenos are alien filth who exist only to be purged in the name of the dark gods and Chaos Undivided.
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Feb 2, 2021 14:51
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Guyver posted:Daemons are ourselves made manifest and xenos are alien filth who exist only to be purged in the name of the dark gods and Chaos Undivided. Yeah, obviously things change after 10K years, but the original Chaos Legions were founded with the same xenophobic mindset as all the rest, and it was never a part of their Dad's teachings that they had any beef with.
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Feb 2, 2021 15:14
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Guyver posted:Daemons are ourselves made manifest and xenos are alien filth who exist only to be purged in the name of the dark gods and Chaos Undivided. I suppose that means that Slaaneshi Noise Marines are also xeno traitors in the eyes of Chaos Marines.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:04
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Immanentized posted:Vulkan shows up in the War of the Beast. They literally go and scrape him off the planet he's guarding to kill him again futilely. Khan is probably Lord Humungous of Commorah, Russ is fully wolfed in the EoT, Corax is cyberbullying Lorgar and the others, also in the EoT. I think Dorn might be the only loyalist to have a confirmed death post-heresy in the 2nd Black Legion novel. Hell, even Sanguinius might respawn with all of the Sanguinor bullshit over the years, and the fire-spirit of Ferrus Mannus was summoned in the Imperial webway during the Secret War. Death is fixable in 40k in a very big way. My brother, you are very cool, but wasn’t that Sigismund they killed? Not Dorn. E: It raises an interesting point though, do we think current Abaddon could beat a primarch 1v1? Miguel Prado fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 18:24
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Miguel Prado posted:My brother, you are very cool, but wasn’t that Sigismund they killed? Not Dorn. Maaaybe fight a primarch to a standstill if it had been weakened before, I think. Abby has come a long way, has 4 deities buffing him and a few powerful artifacts. But 40k has tiers of asskicking and they usually tend to hold true. Primarchs kicks Custodes who kicks Primaris who kicks Astartes. As for Dorn, I remember that when Curze met the Emperor, he saw the ends of all primarchs that came with him, and Dorn was there. Curze saw a darkened, failing ship hallway and Dorn surrounded by the blades of a hundred murderers. It's not conclusive, and it's easy to retcon, but I think until recently it was mostly accepted that he was dead.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:28
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Waroduce posted:isn't there some Pratchett quote about how between angels and demons its just a matter of where you're standing or something along those lines? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbogOqTzyxY&t=72s 
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Feb 2, 2021 19:53
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Sephyr posted:Maaaybe fight a primarch to a standstill if it had been weakened before, I think. Abby has come a long way, has 4 deities buffing him and a few powerful artifacts. But 40k has tiers of asskicking and they usually tend to hold true. Primarchs kicks Custodes who kicks Primaris who kicks Astartes. For a long time dorn was canonically dead, like Ferrus Manus level dead. More recently they pulled back from that a bit and while he’s assumed to be dead, the Fists only recovered his hand so theoretically the rest of him could be out there (whereas before they recovered all of him and just removed the hand to keep). And as I referenced earlier, I believe that there’s a scene in the Beast saga where they’re talking to Vulkan and he offhandedly mentions that he’ll tell Dorn what a good job Koorland is doing. Is Vulkan lying? Is he speaking metaphorically (like maybe in the afterlife he’ll tell him?) Had he just not heard about Dorn’s death? Is he crazy? No idea, but it’s a breadcrumb.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:03
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At this point you gotta go at it from the other side and make a list of who they're definitely not bringing back. Emps?
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Feb 2, 2021 20:10
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Waroduce posted:isn't there some Pratchett quote about how between angels and demons its just a matter of where you're standing or something along those lines? It could be based on the Hellraiser clip for all I know but this is said in First Heretic: 'I see two souls at war within you, and the violence behind your eyes. Yet I wonder,’ the primarch confessed, ‘if you are cursed or blessed.’ Argel Tal grinned, showing too many teeth. It wasn’t his smile. ‘The dif erence between gods and daemons depends largely upon where one stands at the time.’ The way it's framed though, I felt like he was quoting or referencing something.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:20
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Sephyr posted:It's not conclusive, and it's easy to retcon, but I think until recently it was mostly accepted that he was dead. If he isn't dead he's still pretty 'armless.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:26
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:For a long time dorn was canonically dead, like Ferrus Manus level dead. More recently they pulled back from that a bit and while he’s assumed to be dead, the Fists only recovered his hand so theoretically the rest of him could be out there (whereas before they recovered all of him and just removed the hand to keep). And as I referenced earlier, I believe that there’s a scene in the Beast saga where they’re talking to Vulkan and he offhandedly mentions that he’ll tell Dorn what a good job Koorland is doing. There is a theory bouncing around that Dorn is in the Imperial Palace somewhere still doing poo poo, though tbh he probably would have made an appearance when Terra got sieged again if that was true.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:27
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Are there any AoS books that focus on Destruction?
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Feb 2, 2021 20:31
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Sephyr posted:Maaaybe fight a primarch to a standstill if it had been weakened before, I think. Abby has come a long way, has 4 deities buffing him and a few powerful artifacts. But 40k has tiers of asskicking and they usually tend to hold true. Primarchs kicks Custodes who kicks Primaris who kicks Astartes. Bro a titan stepped on Angron, Dorn’s fine. He even kicked Fulgrims butt on the walls.
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Feb 2, 2021 21:09
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Sephyr posted:It's not conclusive, and it's easy to retcon, but I think until recently it was mostly accepted that he was dead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMV_H3Q8ubQ Just make this canon.
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Feb 2, 2021 21:13
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aphid_licker posted:At this point you gotta go at it from the other side and make a list of who they're definitely not bringing back. Emps? sanguinius, horus, at least one of the twins, curze, ferrus manus. all dead, and their deaths are significant parts of their stories. anyone else could theoretically still be alive. the rule seems to be that you have to see the corpse. of course, i think even BL doesn't entirely know who's dead and who's not. there were definitely moments that were supposed to be a send-off that weren't. the clearest example to me is vulkan's "death" in the unremembered empire. it was clearly setting up him being dead-but-not-really and his casket being the final artifact the salamanders had to recover in the 41st millennium to bring him back... but then they decided to wake him up again because they needed him for other stuff.
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Feb 2, 2021 21:23
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Alternatively someone just really hates Nick Kyme and the best they could do was setting up the Curze torture.Sephyr posted:As for Dorn, I remember that when Curze met the Emperor, he saw the ends of all primarchs that came with him, and Dorn was there. Curze saw a darkened, failing ship hallway and Dorn surrounded by the blades of a hundred murderers. One of the plot beats they set up with Curze in the last few HH novels (before they launched into the Siege) is just how fatalistic and willing to accept his visions he is even if they aren't necessarily set in stone. Sanguinius freaks him the gently caress out by raising the possibility of Big E forgiving Curze. Pyrolocutus fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 21:53
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:sanguinius, horus, at least one of the twins, curze, ferrus manus. all dead, and their deaths are significant parts of their stories. I would scratch Sanguinius and the twins off that list. Sanguinius because of the Sanguinor, and the twins because lies is the entirety of their personality. (Which IMO makes them just as boring as Rogal Dorn in their way.) Horus is the deadest entity in the galaxy, and Curze is the one with the most meaningful death. Ferrus Manus... well, he doesn't have a particular reason to stay dead IMO, but he had a clean death and doesn't have any reason to come back either. Maybe as a counterpart if a loyal Fulgrim pops up in some form (which he really should, he had the dumbest fall of all the Primarchs), but that would be kind of gratuitous.
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Feb 2, 2021 22:03
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Ferrus coming back would be interesting just because he would be so horrified at what happened to his Legion, but yeah it doesn't feel like it really moves the bigger story forward.
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Feb 2, 2021 22:06
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