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You Am I posted:God the bogans are going to love that Why do you think that Labor won with such a large margin
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Dec 2, 2014 22:53
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Saul Goode posted:Sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum already (noting the strong presence of HALAL in the word cloud), but I had a co-worker start ranting to me at a morning tea the other day about how Pieface have gone out of business because they decided to make everything Halal certified and when I asked why would that be a problem (even though I knew it was BS), she said it was because Australians were boycotting Halal certified foods because of the cruel manner of killing the animals. She's generally a smart person though so I was thinking maybe she's just been sucked in by some Facebook meme or something, so I've tried to find some articles online I can show her. So far so good, but is there a consensus in AusPol about the cruelty issue? Most of what I've found so far says that the Australian standard is to stun before killing but that certain slaughterhouses are able to get an exemption on religious grounds. Should this latter group be a significant concern? Is there any way to link methods of slaughter to specific businesses? lol Pieface went bankrupt because they have stupid business practices, like having too many stores in the same area. Their pies are ok, but not really worth writing home about and not nearly what I consider worth their price. To suggest Halal certification made a company broke is just way too much tin foil.
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Dec 2, 2014 23:03
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CrazyTolradi posted:lol Pieface went bankrupt because they have stupid business practices, like having too many stores in the same area. Their pies are ok, but not really worth writing home about and not nearly what I consider worth their price. To suggest Halal certification made a company broke is just way too much tin foil. If Halal certification made companies bankrupt then they wouldn't get certification. For a nationwide chain, you should assess whether paying a fee is worth potentially attracting half a million customers. I'm sure for many that is good value.
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Dec 2, 2014 23:08
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Matthew Beet posted:SPORTS SPORTS SPORTS IN SPORTSTORIA! http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2014/s4135968.htm quote:DAVID MORRISON: Yeah - look, I've got no anthropological training, I'm not a sociologist and I would think that a number of your viewers would say, "Well, it's a bit odd for a chief-of-army to be talking about these sorts of matters," but I head one of Australia's great institutions. It's overwhelmingly male. Just over 10 per cent of our workforce is women. I think that male leaders in Australia need to take a role here because this is essentially an issue about culture. It's the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, about how we define ourselves as Australians or soldiers or members of the media. Those stories, in my view, my experience, are more male than they are - more masculine than they are feminine. I think that that inculcates a belief in young Australians that there is some inbuilt advantage to being a male, that you have certain rights accorded to you by your birthright that aren't there for women to enjoy or to see their potential reached during their lifetime. wikipedia quote:"In 2010 a report by University of New South Wales Journalism and Media Research Centre and Media Monitors found that coverage of women in sport made up only 9% of all sports coverage in Australian television news. But coverage on male sport occupied 81% of television news reporting. There was 10% of coverage being non-gender specific." Yes, what we really need is state sanctioned recognition and elevation of a men's sporting competition that is already the most fetishised pastime this state has to offer. Australia's culture is shaped by the stories we tell ourselves, the stories we celebrate and the stories we prioritise. We keep prioritising and celebrating those exclusively male stories. We're loving idiots.
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Dec 2, 2014 23:27
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Whenever I come across the name David Morrison, I keep picturing a hybrid of David Johnston and Scott Morrison... I guess two negatives make a positive.
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Dec 2, 2014 23:32
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Gough Suppressant posted:Halal almost always still stuns in Australia, but uses reversible stunning methods. Kosher doesn't stun. There's also some studies using ECG that kosher and halal slaughter, if done properly, result in lower pain signals than a bolt-gun.
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Dec 2, 2014 23:33
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
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Those On My Left posted:http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2014/s4135968.htm Just as Christopher Pyne can apparently be singled out for greater criticism because he is allegedly gay while being part of a government that is regressive on gay rights, I think you should really be applying the blowtorch to the ~50% of AFL supporters who are women for being traitors to their gender.
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Dec 2, 2014 23:59
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Quantum Mechanic posted:There's also some studies using ECG that kosher and halal slaughter, if done properly, result in lower pain signals than a bolt-gun. I've seen conflicting studies on this, some suggest that it is better than stunning, others don't. There is a lot more that can go wrong in halal or kosher slaughter, which can occasionally leave animals dying terrified and in pain if they do not lose enough blood fast enough. This is compounded by workers who are either unskilled and/or psychopaths as has been demonstrated in abattoirs around the world many times.
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Dec 3, 2014 00:02
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Quantum Mechanic posted:There's also some studies using ECG that kosher and halal slaughter, if done properly, result in lower pain signals than a bolt-gun. From what I understand there is a bit of debate going on around this as some of the studies may have been conducted by people with a vested interest. As in you'd expect a muslim or jewish backed study to find that their traditional way of doing things is as good or better than the way the heathens do it.
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Dec 3, 2014 00:04
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Gough Suppressant posted:Just as Christopher Pyne can apparently be singled out for greater criticism because he is allegedly gay while being part of a government that is regressive on gay rights, I think you should really be applying the blowtorch to the ~50% of AFL supporters who are women for being traitors to their gender. While FIFA is a terrible organisation that is embroiled in continual corruption allegations, at least this year one of the three finalists for goal of the year is a woman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpBvBRn4juw That doesn't invalidate anything said before, but at least it's something. Of course, the only reason the goal is in the running is that someone in the crowd used their smart phone to record it and sent it in. No TV coverage otherwise.
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Dec 3, 2014 00:07
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Zenithe posted:I've seen conflicting studies on this, some suggest that it is better than stunning, others don't. We should probably restrict this to Australian abattoirs, since too often once you leave our borders all bets are off for humane slaughter regardless of whether it is ritualised for halal, kosher etc or not.
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Dec 3, 2014 00:11
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Gough Suppressant posted:Just as Christopher Pyne can apparently be singled out for greater criticism because he is allegedly gay while being part of a government that is regressive on gay rights, I think you should really be applying the blowtorch to the ~50% of AFL supporters who are women for being traitors to their gender. Never stop, MUYB.
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Dec 3, 2014 00:20
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 IDK, just texting my BFF Chris
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Dec 3, 2014 00:24
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Good job getting on a Liberal mailing list!
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Dec 3, 2014 00:52
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Those On My Left posted:Never stop, MUYB. Seems like a fair comparison to me? If Pyne warrants extra criticism for his actions in setting back gay rights due to himself being gay, why shouldn't women who support AFL similarly be criticised more harshly than men?
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Dec 3, 2014 00:59
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Gough Suppressant posted:Seems like a fair comparison to me? If Pyne warrants extra criticism for his actions in setting back gay rights due to himself being gay, why shouldn't women who support AFL similarly be criticised more harshly than men? The Australian media gives women's sport basically no airtime and sporting consumers don't care about it. Bad cultural norms about the inferiority of women in the sporting domain (e.g. "you throw like a girl") disincentivise either the media or consumers themselves from changing either of those facts. (And let's be honest; a lot of the media's power resides in the hands of men, and the 'trendsetting' sports consumers are also men - this is a male space and they have more power in defining it.) Given this context - a context in which men's sports in general (and AFL in particular) are completely dominant - it's hardly surprising that lots of women "support" the AFL (by going to the games, following the league, buying the merchandise, and by consuming and sharing and commenting on the endless media commentary of the sport). They support the AFL (a) because they're not presented with many other options, (b) because by pursuing those options they would marginalise themselves. That second point is hugely important because of how people (idiotically) invest huge parts of their identity in what AFL team they follow, and how closely they follow it. ("I'm a true blue died in the wool Carlton supporter, paid up and proud.") AFL is (and is sold as) a family activity - lots of women are understandably shy about removing themselves from it, for the same reason that men are. My post was criticising the move to give further official and governmental support to the AFL because (a) that support could be better spent elsewhere, and (b) the government should be held to a higher standard. That said, I definitely desperately want more people to realise how narrow and limited (in gender terms) AFL is as a pastime, and to move on to greener pastures. But there are institutional forces making it more difficult for people to make that move, and this is a perfect example of one.
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Dec 3, 2014 01:10
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It's about time someone published a list of correct sports.
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Dec 3, 2014 01:20
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Gough Suppressant posted:Seems like a fair comparison to me? If Pyne warrants extra criticism for his actions in setting back gay rights due to himself being gay, why shouldn't women who support AFL similarly be criticised more harshly than men? I can't tell if you're trolling or if you genuinely think this is a sophisticated analogy.
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Dec 3, 2014 01:23
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open24hours posted:It's about time someone published a list of correct sports. Korfball and hacky sack.
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Dec 3, 2014 01:24
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open24hours posted:It's about time someone published a list of correct sports. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7u9hP4r1S8
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Dec 3, 2014 01:29
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open24hours posted:It's about time someone published a list of correct sports. That was a really useful and well informed post which astutely addressed the issues surrounding our culture being obsessed with male stories and the bad effects this has on our culture, thanks for making it
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Dec 3, 2014 01:34
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Thanks for your transparent and cynical post-hoc justification for why you don't like sports or the people who play them.
open24hours fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 01:39
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open24hours posted:Thanks for your transparent and cynical post-hoc justification for why you don't like sports or the people who play them. If you want to make a diagnosis of cynicism, maybe you should look at the poster who writes off discussion of sexist aspects of our culture with an eyeroll and a "You're just saying that because you don't like sports." The utility and worth of that response is probably on par with "Lol look at this white knight."
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Dec 3, 2014 01:47
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But yeah, congratulations open24hours, you've definitely elevated the discussion and got us talking about what really matters - whether Forums Poster Those On My Left does or does not like AFL players. If only more people were so willing to engage with important issues in such thoughtful and insightful ways.
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Dec 3, 2014 01:48
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Those On My Left posted:If you want to make a diagnosis of cynicism, maybe you should look at the poster who writes off discussion of sexist aspects of our culture with an eyeroll and a "You're just saying that because you don't like sports." The utility and worth of that response is probably on par with "Lol look at this white knight." I'm not writing off a discussion of the sexist aspects of our culture. It's an important topic, but that's not really what this conversation is about.
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Dec 3, 2014 01:51
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open24hours posted:I'm not writing off a discussion of sexist aspects of our culture. It's an important topic, but that's not really what this conversation is about. If you thought it was an important topic, you'd actually be discussing it. But clearly you don't think it's as important a topic as your ability to perform a handy spot of armchair psychoanalysis. I mean, look at what you're choosing to talk about.
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Dec 3, 2014 01:52
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There are two reasons I'm not talking about it. Firstly because I don't know much about sport, and secondly because I'm pretty sure you're not actually interested in improving the profile of women's sport, and are only mentioning it because it provides a convenient way for you to criticise other sports.
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Dec 3, 2014 01:58
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MMA gives the same prominence to female fighters as male with them both competing on the same cards. The progressive choice.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:02
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open24hours posted:There are two reasons I'm not talking about it. Firstly because I don't know much about sport, and secondly because I'm pretty sure you're not actually interested in improving the profile of women's sport, and are only mentioning it because it provides a convenient way for you to criticise other sports. Well I guess that will have to go down in history as the first time a man has ever found a really good reason not to talk about sexism, then.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:02
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Nibbles! posted:MMA gives the same prominence to female fighters as male with them both competing on the same cards. The progressive choice. I don't really like MMA but this is pretty awesome. Good on you MMA.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:04
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Those On My Left posted:We're loving idiots. Welcome to Australia.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:08
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Seriously though, I really don't think it's worth melting down over something like this. If you wanted governments to be a sort of guiding moral hand to lead the people into a new age of not making GBS threads all over women's sports, you picked a bad horse in representative democracy. Aussies are morons that go bonkers over AFL, so a Grand Final holiday seems like a great way to win votes.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:12
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Endman posted:Seriously though, I really don't think it's worth melting down over something like this. If you wanted governments to be a sort of guiding moral hand to lead the people into a new age of not making GBS threads all over women's sports, you picked a bad horse in representative democracy. I'm not melting down, I'm just openly pleading for someone to actually discuss this issue with something resembling good faith. Obviously a Grand Final holiday would be a vote winner. I don't see why that's relevant to this conversation, though. You're saying "our culture loves the AFL grand final" and I'm saying "our culture loves the AFL grand final but that's not ideal". The reason it's not ideal is the reason the Chief of Army explained: our culture needs to stop prioritising predominantly or exclusively male stories. It's also obvious that representative democracy in general (and Australian governments in particular) isn't the best vehicle for leading cultural change (and don't have a great track record in doing so), but they're absolutely capable of it. It seems strange to argue otherwise in a thread that generally agrees that Howard's demonisation of asylum seekers is a big reason why "stop the boats" policies were a vote winner in 2013. If that's not an example of government shaping culture, I don't know what it is.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:25
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So it looks like refugees on protection visas are actually going to be able to work, but will also have their families and futures held to ransom unless they meet a very specific set of criteria.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:25
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open24hours posted:It's about time someone published a list of correct sports. Roller Derby. Womans Ice Hockey.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:26
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Those On My Left posted:I'm not melting down, I'm just openly pleading for someone to actually discuss this issue with something resembling good faith. I cultivate an overwhelming cynicism towards this sort of thing. I've seen governments utilise and aggravate existing prejudices to a ridiculous degree (a la stop the boats), but I don't think I've ever seen it used to positive effect in Australia to implement progressive policies that last beyond the next round of "carbon tax is ruining the economy", "free uni is for leaners", "dole bludgers deserve to be kicked in the face repeatedly" bullshit. But yes, you're right, the overwhelming attention paid to men's stories in this country is a huge problem, from the ANZAC mythology to the incredibly ridiculous outpouring of national grief over a loving cricketer.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:32
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If I find out who keeps leaking internal Greens stuff to the SMH I am going to beat them to death with the fourth pillar
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Dec 3, 2014 02:33
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Quantum Mechanic posted:If I find out who keeps leaking internal Greens stuff to the SMH I am going to beat them to death with the fourth pillar Be careful they don't block you with their fifth column. 
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Dec 3, 2014 02:35
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Endman posted:I cultivate an overwhelming cynicism towards this sort of thing. I've seen governments utilise and aggravate existing prejudices to a ridiculous degree (a la stop the boats), but I don't think I've ever seen it used to positive effect in Australia to implement progressive policies that last beyond the next round of "carbon tax is ruining the economy", "free uni is for leaners", "dole bludgers deserve to be kicked in the face repeatedly" bullshit. Well, even if you're cynical about governments leading positive cultural change, surely you can still agree that they don't have to aggravate existing problems? So, given that you agree that it's a big problem that we overwhelmingly pay attention to men's stories, surely you can agree that it's preferable for the Victorian government not to further highlight grand final day? You're obviously right, they did it because it was a vote winner. But that's not really much of a defence. Honestly, I don't really know whether government can be a primary driver of this kind of social change. I mean, my previous posts have largely been complaining about how the media exclusively focuses on men's sports at the expense of women's sports. There probably isn't a governmental solution to that problem (although there are things that government could do about it, like increased funding to women's sports and talking about it more in parliament, or something). So it's probable that the bigger part of a solution to this problem involves changing the culture in the media, which probably involves better training and education, and more women in positions of power in the media. So, don't mistake me for saying "THIS IS SOMETHING GOVERNMENT MUST FIX". It's more that I'm saying "for gently caress's sake, could the government at least not make it worse?"
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Dec 3, 2014 02:43
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Quantum Mechanic posted:If I find out who keeps leaking internal Greens stuff to the SMH I am going to beat them to death with the fourth pillar Breaking News: Greens member standing for MP wishes physical harm on whistle blowers.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:45
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